why do we want our children to be challenged?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read that many schools in Europe and Asia promote giving children challenging work and then reward children by their effort level verses whether they did it correctly. They are more used to challenges as a result. In the US we are more likely to reward correctness instead of effort.

And how the heck are teachers supposed to recognize "effort level" when grading? This sounds like one of those educational theories that sound lovely in the abstract, but in reality is totally impractical.

I'm a teacher and I'm trying to imagine how it would go over if I marked a student down who did his work correctly, but I perceived he didn't work hard enough.

It's not all about your or the grades. It's about the children. Are you saying you can't recognize effort in your students? That's a problem.

This poster was mistaken about the Asian education system. Nothing in my experience is graded on effort, it is all graded by right or wrong. The difference is when the kids don't do well, everyone including teachers, parents, strangers are blame the kids for not working hard, that is not putting in more effort. Efforts are what people believe what set someone apart in school, not IQ or parental income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read that many schools in Europe and Asia promote giving children challenging work and then reward children by their effort level verses whether they did it correctly. They are more used to challenges as a result. In the US we are more likely to reward correctness instead of effort.

And how the heck are teachers supposed to recognize "effort level" when grading? This sounds like one of those educational theories that sound lovely in the abstract, but in reality is totally impractical.

I'm a teacher and I'm trying to imagine how it would go over if I marked a student down who did his work correctly, but I perceived he didn't work hard enough.

It's not all about your or the grades. It's about the children. Are you saying you can't recognize effort in your students? That's a problem.

This poster was mistaken about the Asian education system. Nothing in my experience is graded on effort, it is all graded by right or wrong. The difference is when the kids don't do well, everyone including teachers, parents, strangers are blame the kids for not working hard, that is not putting in more effort. Efforts are what people believe what set someone apart in school, not IQ or parental income.

I think you are talking about Asian Americans. I'm talking about Asian schools. Asian schools are known to be more challenging and as far as I know parents in early years are more interested in their children being challenged than getting everything right or wrong. Probably in Asia it's both, but there have been many documentaries (you can find some on youtube) regarding how Asian children are praised and taught to increase effort verses mastery both from their parents and teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read that many schools in Europe and Asia promote giving children challenging work and then reward children by their effort level verses whether they did it correctly. They are more used to challenges as a result. In the US we are more likely to reward correctness instead of effort.

And how the heck are teachers supposed to recognize "effort level" when grading? This sounds like one of those educational theories that sound lovely in the abstract, but in reality is totally impractical.

I'm a teacher and I'm trying to imagine how it would go over if I marked a student down who did his work correctly, but I perceived he didn't work hard enough.

It's not all about your or the grades. It's about the children. Are you saying you can't recognize effort in your students? That's a problem.

This poster was mistaken about the Asian education system. Nothing in my experience is graded on effort, it is all graded by right or wrong. The difference is when the kids don't do well, everyone including teachers, parents, strangers are blame the kids for not working hard, that is not putting in more effort. Efforts are what people believe what set someone apart in school, not IQ or parental income.

I think you are talking about Asian Americans. I'm talking about Asian schools. Asian schools are known to be more challenging and as far as I know parents in early years are more interested in their children being challenged than getting everything right or wrong. Probably in Asia it's both, but there have been many documentaries (you can find some on youtube) regarding how Asian children are praised and taught to increase effort verses mastery both from their parents and teachers.

Wrong. Asian parents expect mastery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read that many schools in Europe and Asia promote giving children challenging work and then reward children by their effort level verses whether they did it correctly. They are more used to challenges as a result. In the US we are more likely to reward correctness instead of effort.

And how the heck are teachers supposed to recognize "effort level" when grading? This sounds like one of those educational theories that sound lovely in the abstract, but in reality is totally impractical.

I'm a teacher and I'm trying to imagine how it would go over if I marked a student down who did his work correctly, but I perceived he didn't work hard enough.

It's not all about your or the grades. It's about the children. Are you saying you can't recognize effort in your students? That's a problem.

This poster was mistaken about the Asian education system. Nothing in my experience is graded on effort, it is all graded by right or wrong. The difference is when the kids don't do well, everyone including teachers, parents, strangers are blame the kids for not working hard, that is not putting in more effort. Efforts are what people believe what set someone apart in school, not IQ or parental income.

I think you are talking about Asian Americans. I'm talking about Asian schools. Asian schools are known to be more challenging and as far as I know parents in early years are more interested in their children being challenged than getting everything right or wrong. Probably in Asia it's both, but there have been many documentaries (you can find some on youtube) regarding how Asian children are praised and taught to increase effort verses mastery both from their parents and teachers.

Wrong. Asian parents expect mastery.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/11/12/164793058/struggle-for-smarts-how-eastern-and-western-cultures-tackle-learning

[Anonymous]

http://www.parentingscience.com/chinese-parenting.html

http://www.parentingscience.com/theory-of-intelligence.html

[Anonymous]

Asian schools absolutely cares about right or wrong. They just believe that if you don't do well in school then you are not working hard enough.

Praising effort regardless of results is antithesis in most Asian culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Asian schools absolutely cares about right or wrong. They just believe that if you don't do well in school then you are not working hard enough.

Praising effort regardless of results is antithesis in most Asian culture.

Then why would they want their children challenged? They'd want their children not challenged and getting high grades by your review.

[Anonymous]

They know they dont live in a vacuum. If you are competing from the beginning to go to the best schools and colleges based on academic only, you are goingto put in a lot of effort. Many Asian country has entrance exams to University, the kids are competing with kids from the whole country. Grades dont matter. Only that one exam matter. This exam typically lasts several days and it is not an aptitude test. Keeping the kids challenged is not a philosophy, it is more of a neccesity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They know they dont live in a vacuum. If you are competing from the beginning to go to the best schools and colleges based on academic only, you are goingto put in a lot of effort. Many Asian country has entrance exams to University, the kids are competing with kids from the whole country. Grades dont matter. Only that one exam matter. This exam typically lasts several days and it is not an aptitude test. Keeping the kids challenged is not a philosophy, it is more of a neccesity.

So then we agree that in elementary and middle school parents care more about the challenge being provided than the grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They know they dont live in a vacuum. If you are competing from the beginning to go to the best schools and colleges based on academic only, you are goingto put in a lot of effort. Many Asian country has entrance exams to University, the kids are competing with kids from the whole country. Grades dont matter. Only that one exam matter. This exam typically lasts several days and it is not an aptitude test. Keeping the kids challenged is not a philosophy, it is more of a neccesity.

So then we agree that in elementary and middle school parents care more about the challenge being provided than the grades.

I have never said they don't care about being challenged. They very much do. What I questioned is your assertion that they praise effort and not caring about mastery. They very much care about mastery of materials. But when someone is not very good at studies, the parents/teachers/students are more likely to blame lack of efforts than anything else. Praising effort regardless of achievement is very much a western thing. I should know, I came through the Asian education system, if there is such a thing. China, Japan, Korea are quite similar. Don't know much about Indians.

I think you got the effort part right but missed the part about the achievement. That is what several of us are trying to point out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read that many schools in Europe and Asia promote giving children challenging work and then reward children by their effort level verses whether they did it correctly. They are more used to challenges as a result. In the US we are more likely to reward correctness instead of effort.

And how the heck are teachers supposed to recognize "effort level" when grading? This sounds like one of those educational theories that sound lovely in the abstract, but in reality is totally impractical.

I'm a teacher and I'm trying to imagine how it would go over if I marked a student down who did his work correctly, but I perceived he didn't work hard enough.

It's not all about your or the grades. It's about the children. Are you saying you can't recognize effort in your students? That's a problem.

This poster was mistaken about the Asian education system. Nothing in my experience is graded on effort, it is all graded by right or wrong. The difference is when the kids don't do well, everyone including teachers, parents, strangers are blame the kids for not working hard, that is not putting in more effort. Efforts are what people believe what set someone apart in school, not IQ or parental income.

I think you are talking about Asian Americans. I'm talking about Asian schools. Asian schools are known to be more challenging and as far as I know parents in early years are more interested in their children being challenged than getting everything right or wrong. Probably in Asia it's both, but there have been many documentaries (you can find some on youtube) regarding how Asian children are praised and taught to increase effort verses mastery both from their parents and teachers.

Wrong. Asian parents expect mastery.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/11/12/164793058/struggle-for-smarts-how-eastern-and-western-cultures-tackle-learning

The child in the end got it right. That is mastery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read that many schools in Europe and Asia promote giving children challenging work and then reward children by their effort level verses whether they did it correctly. They are more used to challenges as a result. In the US we are more likely to reward correctness instead of effort.

And how the heck are teachers supposed to recognize "effort level" when grading? This sounds like one of those educational theories that sound lovely in the abstract, but in reality is totally impractical.

I'm a teacher and I'm trying to imagine how it would go over if I marked a student down who did his work correctly, but I perceived he didn't work hard enough.

It's not all about your or the grades. It's about the children. Are you saying you can't recognize effort in your students? That's a problem.

This poster was mistaken about the Asian education system. Nothing in my experience is graded on effort, it is all graded by right or wrong. The difference is when the kids don't do well, everyone including teachers, parents, strangers are blame the kids for not working hard, that is not putting in more effort. Efforts are what people believe what set someone apart in school, not IQ or parental income.

I think you are talking about Asian Americans. I'm talking about Asian schools. Asian schools are known to be more challenging and as far as I know parents in early years are more interested in their children being challenged than getting everything right or wrong. Probably in Asia it's both, but there have been many documentaries (you can find some on youtube) regarding how Asian children are praised and taught to increase effort verses mastery both from their parents and teachers.

I am Asian and have been in the US for the last two decades and have experience both school systems. Asian schools are more demanding for sure. The parents and teachers are definitively praising working hard more than anything else. But they care very much about the kids' grade. Not because grades are used for college application, it is because grades tell them whether the kids got the materials or not. If the kids did not do well, they tell the kids to work harder.

The thing about the Asian American is that the high achievement typically only presents in first and at most second generation Americans. Guess who brought the intensity, it is the immigrant parents who were themselves educated in Asian. This idea that Asian American parents are somehow more achievement oriented than Asian parents in Asian countries is not true.

Maybe the best practice is indeed praising the child for effort and let right or wrong slide in the early years, I am not sure that is the case, but I am sure that is not what is going on over in Asia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you know anything about child development, it is when a child is challenged that real learning occurs.

Vygotsky calls it the Zone of Proximal Development - that space between what a child can do independently and what a child can do with assistance. This is the area where challenge should occur.

Piaget has pointed out that children go through stages of development and in essence, learning occurs during periods of disequilibrium.

So, for children to learn, they need challenges. However, this does not mean that EVERYTHING must be a challenge.

Vygotsky and Piaget both say that children learn best when they are engaged in activities that are challenging to them. But neither says that the challenge has to come from the teachers.

People here talk about "challenge" as something that adults provide to children, rather than as something that children do for themselves if you prepare the environment and step back. In fact, when public schools attempt to do that, through structures like independent reading or writer's workshop, people complain because they want their kids pushed through structures like spelling lists and reading groups that remove the responsibility for challenge from students and place it on adults. These things essentially teach kids to be passive learners, reducing the likelihood that they'll seek out challenge in the future. There's nothing in Vygotsky or Piaget that supports that thinking.

+1

When I say I want my child challenged, I don't mean it just in terms of reading level or math complexity. It means I want her to be asked to stretch herself just a little bit beyond what she can do now, and then a little bit more, etc. It doesn't mean I want her pushed to read "harder" books, it means I want her to be pushed to read more critically, to think about what she read, be able to discuss it, relate it to something else, etc. It means that when she's mastered one thing, I want her to be both allowed and encouraged to try something new, something a little bit harder, a little bit different. In some ways, worksheets and books written purely to be at a certain reading level are antithetical to what I mean by a challenge--it doesn't just mean constantly giving a kid "harder" assignments. It means giving kids the opportunities to stretch themselves, to think in new ways, to think critically, to take ownership of a more complicated project. It means recognizing that space where a kid has the ability to succeed, but that success will require effort rather than coming too easily, and encouraging the kid to try. Worksheets and leveled readers are possibly the worst way to do this. Questioning, reasoning, critiquing, predicting, researching, experimenting, observing--these are the skills I want my kid to develop, and the only way they develop is if kids are asked to go a little outside of their comfort zone, but not punished or shamed when they fail along the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you know anything about child development, it is when a child is challenged that real learning occurs.

Vygotsky calls it the Zone of Proximal Development - that space between what a child can do independently and what a child can do with assistance. This is the area where challenge should occur.

Piaget has pointed out that children go through stages of development and in essence, learning occurs during periods of disequilibrium.

So, for children to learn, they need challenges. However, this does not mean that EVERYTHING must be a challenge.

Yes, I have 2 degrees in early ed. Totally agree about ZPDs. I guess my concern is more that we are challenging too much and/or that that seems to be the main focus for many people. Does that make sense?

You are probably right. I am a retired teacher (and posted before you). I remember the days when teaching and learning wasn’t only challenging, but it was actually fun..... cooking with kids, encouraging block play (even in 1st and 2nd grade), having a sand table, using puppets...... I could go on and on. I think my kids were learning AND were challenge - but it was fun (for them AND me). We didn’t feel the need to move through the curriculum at such a rapid pace... and, ironically, I think my kids learned more than kids today.

I would much prefer this for my DS in kindergarten. He's anxious about school, especially about writing sentences about what he did over the weekend, etc. He wants to write them correctly, but doesn't know how to spell all the words. I do not get the impression that he thinks K is fun. I'd love it if K was more like what PP described.

[Anonymous]

In K they are not asked to spell the words correctly if they are doing their own writing. In fact, I haven't yet seen anyone correct my child's spelling in their writing all through elementary.