FCPS forbids student showing homework to another student?

[Anonymous]

22:09, thanks. OP here.

We have learned a lesson. But do I think the rules are fair and well written, I am not so sure.

Integrity and honesty are very important in my family and I have taught my kids to always tell the truth and to never cheat. I think I have success in this area so far.

What I encountered here is that certain FCPS rules can be twisted and interpreted to charge a student with cheating, when the student herself had no intention to cheat but was unknowingly used by another student to cheat. I continue to have difficulty in accepting that it is fair or the right educational concept.

Will the rule as interpreted by FCPS prevent more cheating? Yes. It will. But if we step back and look at the big picture, we are punishing a student for the conduct of another student, how is that fair to that student? Isn't there a danger of changing a good student into a bad student by making him/her to feel the system is unfair?

As I mentioned in earlier posts, there were missteps by the school itself. The teacher wrote on reporting card that DD copied the work of another student as justification for the F. The teacher did not communicated with me before making a referral to AP. AP talked with DD and issued a warning to DD, all before they talked with me to let me know what happened and to hear my views. I think all these were not in accordance with FCPS rules and directives. They apologized and I did not continue to take issue.

To me, cheating is if I copy others, or if other ask to copy my work and I say yes. It is something I did or intended to happen. It is not something that I was done to. If someone copied my work without my permission and knowledge, I am the victim, not the perpetrator.

Can you imagine that if a husband cheated on his wife, then they charged the wife with cheating simply because there is a law that can be interpreted that way?

Are we teaching our kids to be always on defense and wary about other classmates, to be not trusting of other people in general?

I also make a clear distinction between homework and test. I am on guard when it is a test and would never show another the answers before the test is over. Homework is something that I am less on guard about and would talk and exchange ideas with other students, or even showing them my homework.

This was a homework assignment, that the students were given more than a week to complete. It was not a test or quiz.

I don't think the rule is properly constructed and fairly implemented or interpreted. I am ready to move on because I don't want DD continues to be distracted by this. DD needs to concentrate on her study.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

[Anonymous]

OP-- however you try to justify it, your daughter screwed up here. Even if it was homework, or, as seems more, likely a project or take home test that was to be done at home. Even if it was unintentional, although I find it very hard to believe that an 11th grader didn't know this was not okay. She participate in cheating. Period. And just if you contort the words of the honor code. You are not doing her any favors by justifying this, explaining why the system is unfair, or making her a victim. People will respect you, and her, a lot more if you both admit she make a mistake (without a long winded defense of why it really wasn't a mistake), accept the consequence graciously (which ultimately should not tank her grade), and the move forward, lesson learned.

In our house, we would say, that was a mistake, and we are disappointed that you did not show better judgment. Now you have to live with the consequence. You are really going to have to bust your butt this class for the rest of the year to make up for that F. Let's talk about are you going to do differently in the future? Okay, lesson learned. Moving on.

[Anonymous]

And *not* just if you contort the words of the honor code.

[Anonymous]

8:06 is right.!

And, OP, how is the teacher to know who copied who? Maybe, she thinks your DD copied the other girl. Maybe, she knows better now--but it is certainly possible. How is the teacher supposed to sort this out?

It is cheating--any way you shake it out.

If two people do a heist on a jewelry store--and one guy watches while the other stuffs the bag with jewelry, aren't both of them guilty?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:8:06 is right.!

And, OP, how is the teacher to know who copied who? Maybe, she thinks your DD copied the other girl. Maybe, she knows better now--but it is certainly possible. How is the teacher supposed to sort this out?

It is cheating--any way you shake it out.

If two people do a heist on a jewelry store--and one guy watches while the other stuffs the bag with jewelry, aren't both of them guilty?

im not sure who I agree with yet, but your analogy is flawed. Ordinarily the guy waiting outside is just as guilty as the guy inside, but what if a friend asks you for a ride to the store and steals something without your knowledge while you are there? You need to know what's going on tone guilty, generally. op is saying her daughter doesn't have the necessary mens rea and y'all are arguing for strict liability.

[Anonymous]

A couple of thoughts... first of all, at madison, the definition of cheating: Copying or allowing others to copy information from someone else’s work, test paper, homework, computer disk, etc.

So, at madison this is cheating.

Second, had this happened at college, she would be risking expulsion. (e.g., UVA honor code).

[Anonymous]

OP, I don't understand why you are OK with your daughter giving someone else her homework. That IS cheating. I thought everybody learned in elementary school that giving your homework to someone else is cheating, and I am really surprised that an 11th grader thought it was OK to give her homework to someone else.

But I also think you are being played here. I suspect your daughter and her friend clearly intended to cheat, but your daughter knows that her mom will take her side no matter what, and expects you to go n to school to fix this for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A couple of thoughts... first of all, at madison, the definition of cheating: Copying or allowing others to copy information from someone else’s work, test paper, homework, computer disk, etc.

So, at madison this is cheating.

Second, had this happened at college, she would be risking expulsion. (e.g., UVA honor code).

This. Which is why it is so important to learn the lesson now, when the consequences end up being minimal. Rather than excusing saying it's not really an error.

[Anonymous]

Here's the lesson. Do not put yourself in a situation where your homework can be copied. Like handing over a completed assignment to a friend a week before the due date.

Also, another lawyer, and it's not strict liability here. It's known or *should have known*. And an 11th grader should have known that this was a possibility. Constructive knowledge and all that.

[Anonymous]

Agree that DD is completely playing mom, and mom is enabling her.

I gave my 8th grade FCPS kid this scenario word for word, and asked him if he would share. His immediate answer? No, then they could just copy it, and that's cheating.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I respectfully disagree with 08:06 and 08:19. If you have concluded she cheated, then of course your position is right. I am simply stating my opinion that I don't think she cheated, within the intent of meaning of the word "cheat". Cheating should be something that one can either control, or have consented to let it occur.

08:19, it can be difficult for the teacher to know if both student lied, I agreed. But in this instance, DD told the teacher she completed the homework first, that the teacher should know that DD did not copy from another student, like how she put on the report card. Normally, it may get difficult if the student who did the copying denied. But in this instance, the other student told the teacher and AP she did the copying without DD's knowledge, and showed tons of remorse. How can the school just ignore the clear admission of one and punish all? It is far too easy and convenient to just punish everybody, but is that just?

My DD screwed up? In what way did she screw up other than letting another student see her homework? Did the teacher not screwed up by not telling the students this was a test and not to show each other and help each other for this particular assignment, if she had intended it to be a test?

This brings home the issue of what FCPS and the parents expect the students to do. Do we want to forbid all exchange of ideas and work amongst students for homework assignments? Do we want to place limits and restriction what formats the exchange cannot occur and what formats the exchanges cannot occur? We are in an ever changing world technology wise. The kids today do not communicate the way adults used to. Some of PPs mentioned would it be better for them to talk over the phone? Yes. It would be better, in my world. For the kids, they text, they iM, they snapchat. One time my kids invited some friends over, and I had a good laugh when I noticed that they text each other while they were sitting on the same sofa next to each other. I don't know if it is the same in your household, I noticed my kids use the phone infrequently.

What safeguard should we establish that can be used to prevent misconduct. At the end of the day, I want my kids to acquire knowledge through education, to have compassion for other's needs, and to say no to misconduct. But misconduct should be defined properly and enforced correctly.

It is far easier for me to tell my kids to just not show other classmates their work, and when others ask for help in understanding what the teachers taught, to avoid the possibility that it can be construed as cheating later. When I grew up, that used to be okay.

I am raising a question here that I hope parents and educators alike would think about. If you think that this is my way of justifying "misconduct" and/or "cheating", I feel sorry that you think that way, but I disagree. I hope we are not in a world where we should have a sinister view of others by default.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I see that there are additional views expressed here while I was typing. I do appreciate them and would consider them. I appreciate all views because they are important, that was the reason for me to post the questions here.

[Anonymous]

OP-- you are clearly a lost cause on this, which is sad. You asked for an opinion. Most people said, this is cheating an an 11th grader should know that. You just don't like the answer. This could be a constructive learning experience for your DC. One that will keep her from making mistakes in the future that could get her into much bigger trouble. Instead, all she has learned from this experience is that mistakes shouldn't have consequences, and, that mom can be manipulated pretty easily.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP-- you are clearly a lost cause on this, which is sad. You asked for an opinion. Most people said, this is cheating an an 11th grader should know that. You just don't like the answer. This could be a constructive learning experience for your DC. One that will keep her from making mistakes in the future that could get her into much bigger trouble. Instead, all she has learned from this experience is that mistakes shouldn't have consequences, and, that mom can be manipulated pretty easily.

You didn't come here looking for actual opinions. You came looking for validation of your opinion that your child is the victim, and the school is wrong. But that's just not reality. The academic honor code is a huge deal at any good high school or college. You should teach your child to take it seriously. I went to a top 25 college with a zero tolerance policy on honor code infractions. If I had done this exact thing in college and been caught, I would have been expelled

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I respectfully disagree with 08:06 and 08:19. If you have concluded she cheated, then of course your position is right. I am simply stating my opinion that I don't think she cheated, within the intent of meaning of the word "cheat". Cheating should be something that one can either control, or have consented to let it occur.

08:19, it can be difficult for the teacher to know if both student lied, I agreed. But in this instance, DD told the teacher she completed the homework first, that the teacher should know that DD did not copy from another student, like how she put on the report card. Normally, it may get difficult if the student who did the copying denied. But in this instance, the other student told the teacher and AP she did the copying without DD's knowledge, and showed tons of remorse. How can the school just ignore the clear admission of one and punish all? It is far too easy and convenient to just punish everybody, but is that just?

My DD screwed up? In what way did she screw up other than letting another student see her homework? Did the teacher not screwed up by not telling the students this was a test and not to show each other and help each other for this particular assignment, if she had intended it to be a test?

This brings home the issue of what FCPS and the parents expect the students to do. Do we want to forbid all exchange of ideas and work amongst students for homework assignments? Do we want to place limits and restriction what formats the exchange cannot occur and what formats the exchanges cannot occur? We are in an ever changing world technology wise. The kids today do not communicate the way adults used to. Some of PPs mentioned would it be better for them to talk over the phone? Yes. It would be better, in my world. For the kids, they text, they iM, they snapchat. One time my kids invited some friends over, and I had a good laugh when I noticed that they text each other while they were sitting on the same sofa next to each other. I don't know if it is the same in your household, I noticed my kids use the phone infrequently.

What safeguard should we establish that can be used to prevent misconduct. At the end of the day, I want my kids to acquire knowledge through education, to have compassion for other's needs, and to say no to misconduct. But misconduct should be defined properly and enforced correctly.

It is far easier for me to tell my kids to just not show other classmates their work, and when others ask for help in understanding what the teachers taught, to avoid the possibility that it can be construed as cheating later. When I grew up, that used to be okay.

I am raising a question here that I hope parents and educators alike would think about. If you think that this is my way of justifying "misconduct" and/or "cheating", I feel sorry that you think that way, but I disagree. I hope we are not in a world where we should have a sinister view of others by default.

Yes, that is the take away lesson here. Tell your children "to just not show other classmates their work" because this will "avoid the possibility that it can be construed as cheating later." Exactly! That is exactly what most people teach their children when they are very little.