Dinged for being "too smart" - how do I transition out of government?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's been both a vice president in a consulting firm and a GS-15 manager in government, let me tell you what I think. Your post has a dozen red flags that suggest you're like several people I've run into over the course of my career, who are 10, 15, or 20 years in to their careers, very smart and hard working, but never succeeding as much as they think they should and frequently being encouraged to "find something else." You're what--in your 40's?--and crying yourself to sleep because the other kids are mean and don't appreciate how special you are? You are in denial about your own limitations and all you want to do is blame others. As long as you keep your hands over your ears when anyone tries to tell you anything negative, and as long as you write off all feedback as pettiness and jealousy, you're never going to change, you're never going to succeed, and you're never going to be happy. And in the meantime you create a ton of drama for your managers because you demand special treatment, piss off the rest of the team, and they have to spend half their time calming down everyone's -- how did you put it -- ruffled feathers. Not something they should be wasting their time on as a manager, if you are as good as you say.

The 12-step programs have it right--the first step toward solving your problem is admitting that you have one. You're not going to, though--you're just going to keep spinning these stories with yourself as the poor, put-upon heroine who has done all the right things and is punished anyways because of all those bad, lazy people who are mean and those incompetent managers who can't figure out how to effectively deploy you because no one understands how special you truly are. And your audience will always have enough familiarity with those archetypes to buy into what you're saying--you've got a lot of supporters here already! Well, not all of us are buying it. I can spot women like you a mile off. If I hear even a whiff of self-pity in an interview, you are done.

Red flags:

Self-pity
I'm sad and depressed, and writing this after a sleepless night filled with tears.
Maybe because of my specialized experience, the only offers I got were from my old agency. I accepted a position that was below my former grade
I'm feeling rather punished for having done a good job.
This is not a new experience, as at times in the past, I've also experienced backlash at this agency for doing something well.
I don't have the kind of network and support I used to.
I remember when I first ran into the "Tall Poppy Syndrome" in government
I'm really, really sad to be where I'm at right now.
I do feel somewhat betrayed and left hanging.

Hands over your ears
So, if you want to be snarky, could you please go somewhere else to post?
I'd welcome any constructive, kind advice.


Blaming others
I've been periodically dinged for being "too smart."
Henry told me that he felt he made mistake in giving a new staff member such high profile assignments.
There are three people who have been organizing and fomenting the sentiment against me.
Henry's taken away any real choice in the matter, anyway.

Making excuses for why you don't have to listen to/respect others
the new boss was of a different type - someone who had gotten where he was by marking time and not offending anyone.
He was older, and he was very threatened by me.
He acknowledges that this is pure professional insecurity and jealousy
He told me on our first meeting (i.e. before we even started working together) that I was too young for the job.
My co-workers seemed initially friendly, but I noticed some cooling off in recent weeks....a number of the staff are deeply resentful and feel that he's playing favorites, giving me assignments that rightfully should have gone to one of them.
He said he pointed out my experience and expertise, which made no impression on the complainants.
Henry's promised me that he'll give me more high profile assignments ...it seems unrealistic to think that he'll ever feel comfortable managing a team...

This poster has hit the nail on the head.

- Your current boss TOLD you that you needed to work on building relationships.
Your co-workers were nice initially, but then turned on you? Have you looked at your interactions with them? Is it possible that your interactions could be causing your issues?
Use this opportunity to grow. Another poster mentioned inviting your coworkers out to lunch. DO that. AND listen to them. Make it about THEM. Not about YOU.

Not everyone is jealous of you. Try looking at things from other peoples perspectives. It might help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so simple.

You worked for McKinsey once. That's like saying you have the cure to cancer in your kitchen drawer and just haven't gotten around to transcribing it.

Pick up the phone and call them back.

Even a first year post mba associate gig would pay more than whatever you are making now.

NP here. I get the impression that for all of the talk about how great she is, OP wants the government gig because she wants the work-life balance. Otherwise, this post wouldn't exist, and she would have other options that she would have exercised by now.

Actually, I think its because the private sector has little tolerance for drama queens and senior-level people who suck up a ton of management time and energy. Anyone with a 20-year resume is going to have enough professional connections that a new employer will be able to do some informal reference checking before bringing someone in for an interview, and I bet her attitude at previous jobs gets mentioned and puts them off before they even talk to her.

[Anonymous]

Not the OP but would like to bump OP's concern that she wants to get out of the government but is looking for advice on cushy private sector posts that are family friendly...I am also a fed and also tired of the idea that feds are lazy...Wanting life balance is not lazy...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No matter how smart or how experienced a person is, you don't just start a job and jump to the head of the line when it comes to assignments.

Um, except she did. In the private sector you would absolutely expect someone who is experienced and can deliver to have priority for assignments.

Wow. Is the expectation in government that people should wait in line regardless of level of competence?

I can see why OP wants to get out.

Yes. I've seen what op is describing. I've only seen this happen to women, never to men. I worked at a pseudo govt agency with genererally well educated but under-performing staff. Women who came in strong were often treated like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No matter how smart or how experienced a person is, you don't just start a job and jump to the head of the line when it comes to assignments.

Um, except she did. In the private sector you would absolutely expect someone who is experienced and can deliver to have priority for assignments.

Wow. Is the expectation in government that people should wait in line regardless of level of competence?

I can see why OP wants to get out.

Yes. I've seen what op is describing. I've only seen this happen to women, never to men. I worked at a pseudo govt agency with genererally well educated but under-performing staff. Women who came in strong were often treated like this.

I've never had a job in or out of government where talented people who can get along with others aren't immediately and highly valued. It just doesn't happen. If you're the kind of person who can take things on and work with different people, there will always be people looking to give you work and take you on and help you along.

OTOH, I've seen plenty of smart people crash and burn because their are their own worst enemies. If you walk into your first staff meeting and immediately start telling everyone how they can be doing their jobs better, no one is going to want anything to do with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No matter how smart or how experienced a person is, you don't just start a job and jump to the head of the line when it comes to assignments.

Um, except she did. In the private sector you would absolutely expect someone who is experienced and can deliver to have priority for assignments.

Wow. Is the expectation in government that people should wait in line regardless of level of competence?

I can see why OP wants to get out.

Yes. I've seen what op is describing. I've only seen this happen to women, never to men. I worked at a pseudo govt agency with genererally well educated but under-performing staff. Women who came in strong were often treated like this.

I've never had a job in or out of government where talented people who can get along with others aren't immediately and highly valued. It just doesn't happen. If you're the kind of person who can take things on and work with different people, there will always be people looking to give you work and take you on and help you along.

OTOH, I've seen plenty of smart people crash and burn because their are their own worst enemies. If you walk into your first staff meeting and immediately start telling everyone how they can be doing their jobs better, no one is going to want anything to do with you.

I worked in the government for many years, and although management loved my hard work ethic and my creative solutions to problems and rewarded me well, I found that the hardest thing to manage was my peers. Even when I did my best to be kind and learn from them, some of those that had been there a long time started to dislike me, particularly if they were my age. The older ones were fine, they were tough to change, but at least they knew that they should use my skills to their advantage. The folks my age had time and an environment that was conducive to gossip, etc and not do work. They came up with rumors regarding my sex/dating life (which was not that interesting!), my relationship to peers (which was nonexistent), and my work product (which was always good).

The difference was that private industry had taught me to track my time and to use it wisely. I left government when I started realizing that my mindset was changing and I was not being efficient and was sort of becoming the status quo (and I had other career opportunities, obviously).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No matter how smart or how experienced a person is, you don't just start a job and jump to the head of the line when it comes to assignments.

Um, except she did. In the private sector you would absolutely expect someone who is experienced and can deliver to have priority for assignments.

Wow. Is the expectation in government that people should wait in line regardless of level of competence?

I can see why OP wants to get out.

Yes. I've seen what op is describing. I've only seen this happen to women, never to men. I worked at a pseudo govt agency with genererally well educated but under-performing staff. Women who came in strong were often treated like this.

I've never had a job in or out of government where talented people who can get along with others aren't immediately and highly valued. It just doesn't happen. If you're the kind of person who can take things on and work with different people, there will always be people looking to give you work and take you on and help you along.

OTOH, I've seen plenty of smart people crash and burn because their are their own worst enemies. If you walk into your first staff meeting and immediately start telling everyone how they can be doing their jobs better, no one is going to want anything to do with you.

Really! I've worked in and outside of the govt and have seen this particularly with women. It doesn't matter how well you work with others if they don't want you there.

So you've never seen a new person walk into a job that current employees were vying for? I've seen resentment in this type of situation that lasted for years. Your views are so pollyanaish.

[Anonymous]

Blah, blah, blah... someone is an overachiever who wants to show the world how bright and perky she is. Unfortunately, as many PPs have stated, you forgot to build relationships and accommodate your peers and office culture. We got it, you went to all the right schools, wear the right clothes, and "speak the right speak." Now pull this stick out...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Blah, blah, blah... someone is an overachiever who wants to show the world how bright and perky she is. Unfortunately, as many PPs have stated, you forgot to build relationships and accommodate your peers and office culture. We got it, you went to all the right schools, wear the right clothes, and "speak the right speak." Now pull this stick out...

And this explains a lot about the productivity of govt agencies. Blend in, keep your head down, don't work too much...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blah, blah, blah... someone is an overachiever who wants to show the world how bright and perky she is. Unfortunately, as many PPs have stated, you forgot to build relationships and accommodate your peers and office culture. We got it, you went to all the right schools, wear the right clothes, and "speak the right speak." Now pull this stick out...

And this explains a lot about the productivity of govt agencies. Blend in, keep your head down, don't work too much...

What? That doesn't follow at all. The quoted passage says nothing about the productivity of gov't agencies. The advice to build relationships with your peers is hardly saying to blend in and not work too much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blah, blah, blah... someone is an overachiever who wants to show the world how bright and perky she is. Unfortunately, as many PPs have stated, you forgot to build relationships and accommodate your peers and office culture. We got it, you went to all the right schools, wear the right clothes, and "speak the right speak." Now pull this stick out...

And this explains a lot about the productivity of govt agencies. Blend in, keep your head down, don't work too much...

What? That doesn't follow at all. The quoted passage says nothing about the productivity of gov't agencies. The advice to build relationships with your peers is hardly saying to blend in and not work too much.

Exactly. I don't care how smart you are or where you work, if you are a zero in emotional intelligence, you're not going to make it that far. Brains and energy gets you a lot of the way, but there just aren't that many roles for lone-wolf "technical expert" kinds of people. Success at higher levels means helping groups of people function. If you don't have the self-awareness to be effective in that role, you're going to max up...in government or in private industry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blah, blah, blah... someone is an overachiever who wants to show the world how bright and perky she is. Unfortunately, as many PPs have stated, you forgot to build relationships and accommodate your peers and office culture. We got it, you went to all the right schools, wear the right clothes, and "speak the right speak." Now pull this stick out...

And this explains a lot about the productivity of govt agencies. Blend in, keep your head down, don't work too much...

What? That doesn't follow at all. The quoted passage says nothing about the productivity of gov't agencies. The advice to build relationships with your peers is hardly saying to blend in and not work too much.

Exactly. I don't get why people keep complaining about "government agencies." You can't make it to the higher levels in any organization if you can't be bothered to get along with your coworkers. I don't care how smart you are, or whether you're a man or a woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm sad and depressed, and writing this after a sleepless night filled with tears. So, if you want to be snarky, could you please go somewhere else to post?

I've worked most of my career in government, with the exception of a few years at McKinsey right out of graduate school. I joined government because I wanted to be in the public service, and I've worked for only one agency. The agency that I work for does, despite itself, promote the public good.

Throughout my career at this agency, however, I've been periodically dinged for being "too smart." As a younger person, it seemed to matter less. I found people who knew how to use me well, who were themselves smart, goal-oriented, high-achievers. I was promoted at a relatively young age (for this agency, anyway, where management is heavily tilted towards older people) to deputy director of a division. I had a great boss, great colleagues, life seemed good. My boss then left and the new boss was of a different type - someone who had gotten where he was by marking time and not offending anyone. He was older, and he was very threatened by me. He told me on our first meeting (i.e. before we even started working together) that I was too young for the job. By the time he came along, I'd been in the job for 3 years and had more than proved my competence. I realized that he wasn't going to change and found another job within the agency. Again, the new job worked well for a few years, until a different boss came in. Rinse and repeat. When another cycle started after I'd been at the agency for over 15 years, I decided to stay at home for a few years with my children.

After my last child entered kindergarten, I decided to go back to work. Maybe because of my specialized experience, the only offers I got were from my old agency. I accepted a position that was below my former grade, but at a comparable salary because of inflation. I wanted to be able to spend a decent amount of time with my children, and management at my agency can be a 60+ hour a week proposition. My boss offered me flexible hours and promised to be family-friendly. He is himself a parent, and he's generally a very nice guy. He also promised me some high-profile assignments that drew on specific areas where I have expertise. I felt that the job would provide a nice work-life balance.

When I received the assignments he promised, I felt I had to prove that my years away had not rusted my brain. I gave the assignments my very best effort. Initially, everyone seemed happy. I got feedback that I knocked it out of the park. My division got lots of kudos and praise (as did I personally).

Yesterday afternoon, my boss (whom I'll call Henry) called me into his office and told me that he has a near-revolt on his hands from his other staff. My co-workers seemed initially friendly, but I noticed some cooling off in recent weeks. I tried not to take it personally, but wondered if there was some envy about the assignments I'd been given. Henry confirmed that it went beyond envy. A number of the staff are deeply resentful and feel that he's playing favorites, giving me assignments that rightfully should have gone to one of them. He said he pointed out my experience and expertise, which made no impression on the complainants.

He acknowledges that this is pure professional insecurity and jealousy, but Henry told me that he felt he made mistake in giving a new staff member such high profile assignments. He said that until the rest of the staff calm down, he'll be giving me only routine tasks, so that I'll have a lower profile. Then he asked me to focus on "building relationships." From what Henry told me, there are three people who have been organizing and fomenting the sentiment against me. He feels that there's nothing he can do as a manager except try to smooth the ruffled feathers.

I have pretty good interpersonal skills, but I'm not sure there's much I can do to reduce my co-worker's sense of threat, other than by not performing. Henry's taken away any real choice in the matter, anyway. I'll automatically be less of a threat if I'm working on routine (read shit work no one else wants to do) tasks. I'm feeling rather punished for having done a good job. This is not a new experience, as at times in the past, I've also experienced backlash at this agency for doing something well. Usually, I had a critical mass of supportive people who outweighed the naysayers. Unfortunately, now many of my former colleagues have retired, and I don't have the kind of network and support I used to.

I remember when I first ran into the "Tall Poppy Syndrome" in government, I missed the more performance-oriented nature of the private sector. Granted, McKinsey may not be every private sector organization, but I did feel that performance was rewarded and (almost uniformly) viewed in a positive way. I was also in a unit where the culture encouraged us to celebrating each others' achievements.

I'm really, really sad to be where I'm at right now. I worked hard and went to top schools. I've always tried to deliver the best work that I can. I don't think I can reap many rewards within government. Henry's promised me that he'll give me more high profile assignments when things "calm down," but it seems unrealistic to think that he'll ever feel comfortable managing a team with divergent abilities. I do feel somewhat betrayed and left hanging.

I may be looking at my experience in consulting with too nostalgic a lens, but I think I might be better off in the private sector. It seems to me there's more accountability and a focus on the performance that is, unfortunately, lacking in governmetn because of the inability to fire non-performing employees. The problem is, having worked in government for so long, I have no idea how to transition to the private sector. I did do some networking when I was job searching, and most people seemed to think that even though I'm bright, highly trained, experienced, and have a track record of success, it would be difficult to transition to the private sector given that most of my experience is within government.

Has anyone made the transition successfully? Is it possible to have a family-friendly job in the private sector?

I'm also wondering about AD-ship (political appointee), as it seems to me that while the jobs are term limited, they don't face the same limitations as being career civil servants. I know very little about how to become a political appointee. It seems to involve connecting with the right people, but if you don't move in political circles, how do you do that?

I'd welcome any constructive, kind advice.

I hear you...but are you difficult to work with? Are you a team player? Are you in public service for individual recognition or to improve things?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blah, blah, blah... someone is an overachiever who wants to show the world how bright and perky she is. Unfortunately, as many PPs have stated, you forgot to build relationships and accommodate your peers and office culture. We got it, you went to all the right schools, wear the right clothes, and "speak the right speak." Now pull this stick out...

And this explains a lot about the productivity of govt agencies. Blend in, keep your head down, don't work too much...

Yes the private sector is all just wine and roses!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No matter how smart or how experienced a person is, you don't just start a job and jump to the head of the line when it comes to assignments.

Um, except she did. In the private sector you would absolutely expect someone who is experienced and can deliver to have priority for assignments.

Wow. Is the expectation in government that people should wait in line regardless of level of competence?

I can see why OP wants to get out.

Yes. I've seen what op is describing. I've only seen this happen to women, never to men. I worked at a pseudo govt agency with genererally well educated but under-performing staff. Women who came in strong were often treated like this.

I've never had a job in or out of government where talented people who can get along with others aren't immediately and highly valued. It just doesn't happen. If you're the kind of person who can take things on and work with different people, there will always be people looking to give you work and take you on and help you along.

OTOH, I've seen plenty of smart people crash and burn because their are their own worst enemies. If you walk into your first staff meeting and immediately start telling everyone how they can be doing their jobs better, no one is going to want anything to do with you.

Really! I've worked in and outside of the govt and have seen this particularly with women. It doesn't matter how well you work with others if they don't want you there.

So you've never seen a new person walk into a job that current employees were vying for? I've seen resentment in this type of situation that lasted for years. Your views are so pollyanaish.

New PP -- I have seen this. Seeing it in my agency right now, in fact. A number of long-time employees were passed over for a team management spot that went to someone from the outside. I am not in that office, so I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't know what her actual substantive knowledge is like but in my various interactions with her, she has struck me as smart, efficient, and interesting in improving agency processes (which is not a key priority of many people, sadly). The people in her office HATE her. They've hated her from day one. It's a small agency with lots of gossip and everyone knows it. If she actually doesn't know what she's talking about then there may be some foundation, but the way they talk about her is the way Republicans talk about Obama - obstructionism and assuming the worst of anything she proposes. It makes me suspect that in fact she's quite good, but she will never fit in because her subordinates will never forget that she came from the outside.

Thankfully my office is nothing like that. Totally different culture.