Hypothetical law school question

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

You graduated w/ almost do debt because you had a scholarship or because someone paid for your law school? If it was a scholarship, then congratulations. Obviously, if OP's DH can get an almost full ride to a top 10 school, he should do it. But that wasn't the hypo presented to us.

As for there being too many law schools/law grads, that may be true. But that has also changed significantly in the past few years. I assume you know that law school applications have fallen dramatically and there are far fewer people going to and graduating from law school than there were just a few years ago (numbers are back to where they were in the 1970s). So the market has already started to correct and likely will continue to do so for some time now. Still, that doesn't mean that OP's DH should choose full-pay at Harvard vs. full-scholarship at GW (or Notre Dame).

Also, when you're suggesting that 2/3 of law schools should close, you should keep in mind that there's a lot more to the law than big law firms. We need prosecutors, public defenders, public interest lawyers, lawyers in small firms, fed govt lawyers, etc. Big Law is not the beginning and the end of legal work, although sometimes it sure does seem that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

You graduated w/ almost do debt because you had a scholarship or because someone paid for your law school? If it was a scholarship, then congratulations. Obviously, if OP's DH can get an almost full ride to a top 10 school, he should do it. But that wasn't the hypo presented to us.

As for there being too many law schools/law grads, that may be true. But that has also changed significantly in the past few years. I assume you know that law school applications have fallen dramatically and there are far fewer people going to and graduating from law school than there were just a few years ago (numbers are back to where they were in the 1970s). So the market has already started to correct and likely will continue to do so for some time now. Still, that doesn't mean that OP's DH should choose full-pay at Harvard vs. full-scholarship at GW (or Notre Dame).

Also, when you're suggesting that 2/3 of law schools should close, you should keep in mind that there's a lot more to the law than big law firms. We need prosecutors, public defenders, public interest lawyers, lawyers in small firms, fed govt lawyers, etc. Big Law is not the beginning and the end of legal work, although sometimes it sure does seem that way.

When I say I know people who could not get legal jobs, that includes government and in house jobs. All of those prior year grads are still out there looking for work and big firms need fewer and fewer lawyers. Add in sequestration and state cut backs. The demand for lawyers is not growing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

You graduated w/ almost do debt because you had a scholarship or because someone paid for your law school? If it was a scholarship, then congratulations. Obviously, if OP's DH can get an almost full ride to a top 10 school, he should do it. But that wasn't the hypo presented to us.

As for there being too many law schools/law grads, that may be true. But that has also changed significantly in the past few years. I assume you know that law school applications have fallen dramatically and there are far fewer people going to and graduating from law school than there were just a few years ago (numbers are back to where they were in the 1970s). So the market has already started to correct and likely will continue to do so for some time now. Still, that doesn't mean that OP's DH should choose full-pay at Harvard vs. full-scholarship at GW (or Notre Dame).

Also, when you're suggesting that 2/3 of law schools should close, you should keep in mind that there's a lot more to the law than big law firms. We need prosecutors, public defenders, public interest lawyers, lawyers in small firms, fed govt lawyers, etc. Big Law is not the beginning and the end of legal work, although sometimes it sure does seem that way.

When I say I know people who could not get legal jobs, that includes government and in house jobs. All of those prior year grads are still out there looking for work and big firms need fewer and fewer lawyers. Add in sequestration and state cut backs. The demand for lawyers is not growing.

I never said the demand was growing, but the supply is definitely shrinking.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about why you came out of law school debt free. My guess is because someone (e.g., your parents) paid for you to go to law school. If that's true (maybe it's not, but that's what your silence implies), then I'm not sure how you can in good conscience recommend to someone that he incur $200,000 in debt to go to HYS rather than Notre Dame for far less money. The key here is the debt, but it seems like that's something you haven't had to consider or worry about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

You graduated w/ almost do debt because you had a scholarship or because someone paid for your law school? If it was a scholarship, then congratulations. Obviously, if OP's DH can get an almost full ride to a top 10 school, he should do it. But that wasn't the hypo presented to us.

As for there being too many law schools/law grads, that may be true. But that has also changed significantly in the past few years. I assume you know that law school applications have fallen dramatically and there are far fewer people going to and graduating from law school than there were just a few years ago (numbers are back to where they were in the 1970s). So the market has already started to correct and likely will continue to do so for some time now. Still, that doesn't mean that OP's DH should choose full-pay at Harvard vs. full-scholarship at GW (or Notre Dame).

Also, when you're suggesting that 2/3 of law schools should close, you should keep in mind that there's a lot more to the law than big law firms. We need prosecutors, public defenders, public interest lawyers, lawyers in small firms, fed govt lawyers, etc. Big Law is not the beginning and the end of legal work, although sometimes it sure does seem that way.

When I say I know people who could not get legal jobs, that includes government and in house jobs. All of those prior year grads are still out there looking for work and big firms need fewer and fewer lawyers. Add in sequestration and state cut backs. The demand for lawyers is not growing.

I never said the demand was growing, but the supply is definitely shrinking.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about why you came out of law school debt free. My guess is because someone (e.g., your parents) paid for you to go to law school. If that's true (maybe it's not, but that's what your silence implies), then I'm not sure how you can in good conscience recommend to someone that he incur $200,000 in debt to go to HYS rather than Notre Dame for far less money. The key here is the debt, but it seems like that's something you haven't had to consider or worry about.

Nobody paid for my lawschool other than me. And the decrease in supply is not meaningful given that demand is also shrinking and the starting point is massive oversupply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

You graduated w/ almost do debt because you had a scholarship or because someone paid for your law school? If it was a scholarship, then congratulations. Obviously, if OP's DH can get an almost full ride to a top 10 school, he should do it. But that wasn't the hypo presented to us.

As for there being too many law schools/law grads, that may be true. But that has also changed significantly in the past few years. I assume you know that law school applications have fallen dramatically and there are far fewer people going to and graduating from law school than there were just a few years ago (numbers are back to where they were in the 1970s). So the market has already started to correct and likely will continue to do so for some time now. Still, that doesn't mean that OP's DH should choose full-pay at Harvard vs. full-scholarship at GW (or Notre Dame).

Also, when you're suggesting that 2/3 of law schools should close, you should keep in mind that there's a lot more to the law than big law firms. We need prosecutors, public defenders, public interest lawyers, lawyers in small firms, fed govt lawyers, etc. Big Law is not the beginning and the end of legal work, although sometimes it sure does seem that way.

When I say I know people who could not get legal jobs, that includes government and in house jobs. All of those prior year grads are still out there looking for work and big firms need fewer and fewer lawyers. Add in sequestration and state cut backs. The demand for lawyers is not growing.

I never said the demand was growing, but the supply is definitely shrinking.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about why you came out of law school debt free. My guess is because someone (e.g., your parents) paid for you to go to law school. If that's true (maybe it's not, but that's what your silence implies), then I'm not sure how you can in good conscience recommend to someone that he incur $200,000 in debt to go to HYS rather than Notre Dame for far less money. The key here is the debt, but it seems like that's something you haven't had to consider or worry about.

Nobody paid for my lawschool other than me. And the decrease in supply is not meaningful given that demand is also shrinking and the starting point is massive oversupply.

Then you got a full scholarship to Penn? Congratulations. That must mean you got into HYS, right? Nobody gets a full ride to Penn but doesn't get into at least one of the top 5 schools. Why didn't you go to a better school and pay full price if going to the best law school is what everyone should do? Isn't that the advice you're giving to OP and her DH?

As for the supply/demand, only time will tell on that front. If you have an empirical study to support your claims, please pass on a link.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

You graduated w/ almost do debt because you had a scholarship or because someone paid for your law school? If it was a scholarship, then congratulations. Obviously, if OP's DH can get an almost full ride to a top 10 school, he should do it. But that wasn't the hypo presented to us.

As for there being too many law schools/law grads, that may be true. But that has also changed significantly in the past few years. I assume you know that law school applications have fallen dramatically and there are far fewer people going to and graduating from law school than there were just a few years ago (numbers are back to where they were in the 1970s). So the market has already started to correct and likely will continue to do so for some time now. Still, that doesn't mean that OP's DH should choose full-pay at Harvard vs. full-scholarship at GW (or Notre Dame).

Also, when you're suggesting that 2/3 of law schools should close, you should keep in mind that there's a lot more to the law than big law firms. We need prosecutors, public defenders, public interest lawyers, lawyers in small firms, fed govt lawyers, etc. Big Law is not the beginning and the end of legal work, although sometimes it sure does seem that way.

When I say I know people who could not get legal jobs, that includes government and in house jobs. All of those prior year grads are still out there looking for work and big firms need fewer and fewer lawyers. Add in sequestration and state cut backs. The demand for lawyers is not growing.

I never said the demand was growing, but the supply is definitely shrinking.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about why you came out of law school debt free. My guess is because someone (e.g., your parents) paid for you to go to law school. If that's true (maybe it's not, but that's what your silence implies), then I'm not sure how you can in good conscience recommend to someone that he incur $200,000 in debt to go to HYS rather than Notre Dame for far less money. The key here is the debt, but it seems like that's something you haven't had to consider or worry about.

Nobody paid for my lawschool other than me. And the decrease in supply is not meaningful given that demand is also shrinking and the starting point is massive oversupply.

And, btw, it's "other than I" not "other than me."

[Anonymous]

Op,

Paul Campos has a lot of good literature and data analysis regarding lawyer supply and demand.

Also, Law School Transparency has a lot of good information regarding job outcomes at various schools. It's a good organization that has pushed for much greater transparency from schools regarding outcomes for their grads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

You graduated w/ almost do debt because you had a scholarship or because someone paid for your law school? If it was a scholarship, then congratulations. Obviously, if OP's DH can get an almost full ride to a top 10 school, he should do it. But that wasn't the hypo presented to us.

As for there being too many law schools/law grads, that may be true. But that has also changed significantly in the past few years. I assume you know that law school applications have fallen dramatically and there are far fewer people going to and graduating from law school than there were just a few years ago (numbers are back to where they were in the 1970s). So the market has already started to correct and likely will continue to do so for some time now. Still, that doesn't mean that OP's DH should choose full-pay at Harvard vs. full-scholarship at GW (or Notre Dame).

Also, when you're suggesting that 2/3 of law schools should close, you should keep in mind that there's a lot more to the law than big law firms. We need prosecutors, public defenders, public interest lawyers, lawyers in small firms, fed govt lawyers, etc. Big Law is not the beginning and the end of legal work, although sometimes it sure does seem that way.

When I say I know people who could not get legal jobs, that includes government and in house jobs. All of those prior year grads are still out there looking for work and big firms need fewer and fewer lawyers. Add in sequestration and state cut backs. The demand for lawyers is not growing.

I never said the demand was growing, but the supply is definitely shrinking.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about why you came out of law school debt free. My guess is because someone (e.g., your parents) paid for you to go to law school. If that's true (maybe it's not, but that's what your silence implies), then I'm not sure how you can in good conscience recommend to someone that he incur $200,000 in debt to go to HYS rather than Notre Dame for far less money. The key here is the debt, but it seems like that's something you haven't had to consider or worry about.

Nobody paid for my lawschool other than me. And the decrease in supply is not meaningful given that demand is also shrinking and the starting point is massive oversupply.

Then you got a full scholarship to Penn? Congratulations. That must mean you got into HYS, right? Nobody gets a full ride to Penn but doesn't get into at least one of the top 5 schools. Why didn't you go to a better school and pay full price if going to the best law school is what everyone should do? Isn't that the advice you're giving to OP and her DH?

As for the supply/demand, only time will tell on that front. If you have an empirical study to support your claims, please pass on a link.

I never said I got a full scholarship, and didn't apply to HYS. Certainly, if OP's husband got into one of those schools and the financial numbers made sense, he should attend. I think that point was clear in several of my prior posts.

Numbers showing the startling oversupply of lawyers in the attached link. http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/the-oversupply-of-lawyers-in-america/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

You graduated w/ almost do debt because you had a scholarship or because someone paid for your law school? If it was a scholarship, then congratulations. Obviously, if OP's DH can get an almost full ride to a top 10 school, he should do it. But that wasn't the hypo presented to us.

As for there being too many law schools/law grads, that may be true. But that has also changed significantly in the past few years. I assume you know that law school applications have fallen dramatically and there are far fewer people going to and graduating from law school than there were just a few years ago (numbers are back to where they were in the 1970s). So the market has already started to correct and likely will continue to do so for some time now. Still, that doesn't mean that OP's DH should choose full-pay at Harvard vs. full-scholarship at GW (or Notre Dame).

Also, when you're suggesting that 2/3 of law schools should close, you should keep in mind that there's a lot more to the law than big law firms. We need prosecutors, public defenders, public interest lawyers, lawyers in small firms, fed govt lawyers, etc. Big Law is not the beginning and the end of legal work, although sometimes it sure does seem that way.

When I say I know people who could not get legal jobs, that includes government and in house jobs. All of those prior year grads are still out there looking for work and big firms need fewer and fewer lawyers. Add in sequestration and state cut backs. The demand for lawyers is not growing.

I never said the demand was growing, but the supply is definitely shrinking.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about why you came out of law school debt free. My guess is because someone (e.g., your parents) paid for you to go to law school. If that's true (maybe it's not, but that's what your silence implies), then I'm not sure how you can in good conscience recommend to someone that he incur $200,000 in debt to go to HYS rather than Notre Dame for far less money. The key here is the debt, but it seems like that's something you haven't had to consider or worry about.

Nobody paid for my lawschool other than me. And the decrease in supply is not meaningful given that demand is also shrinking and the starting point is massive oversupply.

Then you got a full scholarship to Penn? Congratulations. That must mean you got into HYS, right? Nobody gets a full ride to Penn but doesn't get into at least one of the top 5 schools. Why didn't you go to a better school and pay full price if going to the best law school is what everyone should do? Isn't that the advice you're giving to OP and her DH?

As for the supply/demand, only time will tell on that front. If you have an empirical study to support your claims, please pass on a link.

I never said I got a full scholarship, and didn't apply to HYS. Certainly, if OP's husband got into one of those schools and the financial numbers made sense, he should attend. I think that point was clear in several of my prior posts.

Numbers showing the startling oversupply of lawyers in the attached link. http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/the-oversupply-of-lawyers-in-america/

OK, so if you didn't get a scholarship and nobody else paid, then you must be independently wealthy and in a very different situation from the OP and her DH. Your earlier posts implied that he should go to the highest ranked school even if he got a major scholarship at a school like ND. So, no, your earlier posts didn't make the point that he should only go to the higher ranked school if "the financial numbers made sense."

I'm sorry, but a story from ATL in 2011 is not going to convince me about the current supply/demand in the legal market. Since 2010, law school applications have fallen about 30%, so as I said, the market is correcting. The only question is where the bottom will be.

[Anonymous]

If he goes to ND (or another school outside the DC area), can you keep your job and work remotely? If not, what are the job prospects like for you in South Bend or another small college town?

He should go to the best school he gets into that gives him the most money. I am and always have been a government lawyer, and I could never have afforded to take this position if I hadn't gone to an in-state school with a small scholarship. Your other debts will also factor into this (mortgage, other student loan debts, child care costs, etc.)

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Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

Actually, I went to Penn and graduated with almost no debt. And I've met far too many people who have went to second or third tier schools and cannot get legal jobs of any type. The legal field is oversaturated and it has become near impossible to get a good job without going to a top school and doing well. Frankly, we should probably close two thirds of the law schools in the country.

You graduated w/ almost do debt because you had a scholarship or because someone paid for your law school? If it was a scholarship, then congratulations. Obviously, if OP's DH can get an almost full ride to a top 10 school, he should do it. But that wasn't the hypo presented to us.

As for there being too many law schools/law grads, that may be true. But that has also changed significantly in the past few years. I assume you know that law school applications have fallen dramatically and there are far fewer people going to and graduating from law school than there were just a few years ago (numbers are back to where they were in the 1970s). So the market has already started to correct and likely will continue to do so for some time now. Still, that doesn't mean that OP's DH should choose full-pay at Harvard vs. full-scholarship at GW (or Notre Dame).

Also, when you're suggesting that 2/3 of law schools should close, you should keep in mind that there's a lot more to the law than big law firms. We need prosecutors, public defenders, public interest lawyers, lawyers in small firms, fed govt lawyers, etc. Big Law is not the beginning and the end of legal work, although sometimes it sure does seem that way.

When I say I know people who could not get legal jobs, that includes government and in house jobs. All of those prior year grads are still out there looking for work and big firms need fewer and fewer lawyers. Add in sequestration and state cut backs. The demand for lawyers is not growing.

I never said the demand was growing, but the supply is definitely shrinking.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about why you came out of law school debt free. My guess is because someone (e.g., your parents) paid for you to go to law school. If that's true (maybe it's not, but that's what your silence implies), then I'm not sure how you can in good conscience recommend to someone that he incur $200,000 in debt to go to HYS rather than Notre Dame for far less money. The key here is the debt, but it seems like that's something you haven't had to consider or worry about.

Nobody paid for my lawschool other than me. And the decrease in supply is not meaningful given that demand is also shrinking and the starting point is massive oversupply.

Then you got a full scholarship to Penn? Congratulations. That must mean you got into HYS, right? Nobody gets a full ride to Penn but doesn't get into at least one of the top 5 schools. Why didn't you go to a better school and pay full price if going to the best law school is what everyone should do? Isn't that the advice you're giving to OP and her DH?

As for the supply/demand, only time will tell on that front. If you have an empirical study to support your claims, please pass on a link.

I never said I got a full scholarship, and didn't apply to HYS. Certainly, if OP's husband got into one of those schools and the financial numbers made sense, he should attend. I think that point was clear in several of my prior posts.

Numbers showing the startling oversupply of lawyers in the attached link. http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/the-oversupply-of-lawyers-in-america/

OK, so if you didn't get a scholarship and nobody else paid, then you must be independently wealthy and in a very different situation from the OP and her DH. Your earlier posts implied that he should go to the highest ranked school even if he got a major scholarship at a school like ND. So, no, your earlier posts didn't make the point that he should only go to the higher ranked school if "the financial numbers made sense."

I'm sorry, but a story from ATL in 2011 is not going to convince me about the current supply/demand in the legal market. Since 2010, law school applications have fallen about 30%, so as I said, the market is correcting. The only question is where the bottom will be.

I don't think it's worth going to any school that isn't T14, even with financial aid, so I would never advise him to go to Notre Dame. There are opportunity costs for him attending law school, three years of lost wages for him and possibly a reduction in salary or no salary for his wife. Not worth it given the iffy employment chances afterwards.

You need to think more creatively --there are many possible combinations of aid/scholarship, loans, and paying with past and summer earnings that would allow someone to graduate with low debt. It isn't full ride or independently wealthy.

[Anonymous]

This is the OP. I know that it is delayed, but I wanted to stop by this thread to let you know that I read over what everyone had to say and that I appreciate you taking the time to contribute. Thanks!