Hypothetical law school question

[Anonymous]

If the top of the class at ND can land a biglaw job or a good clerkship, why take on the debt?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the top of the class at ND can land a biglaw job or a good clerkship, why take on the debt?

Bc you may wind up in their bottom or middle not the top.

Law school isn't like undergrad where if you work hard and spend a lot of time writing papers you can do well. There is one exam for each course, that's it, and the class is curved so only a certain small percentage can get a good grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the top of the class at ND can land a biglaw job or a good clerkship, why take on the debt?

Bc you may wind up in their bottom or middle not the top.

Law school isn't like undergrad where if you work hard and spend a lot of time writing papers you can do well. There is one exam for each course, that's it, and the class is curved so only a certain small percentage can get a good grade.

This could happen at Harvard too and is, in fact, more likely to happen there because of the stiffness of the competition. Middle of the pack or bottom of the class at Harvard is having a very hard time landing big law nowadays. At least if he was middle or bottom at Notre Dame, he would not have crushing debt to deal with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah OP, you need to think this through. Would you quit your fed job in order to move to Notre Dame? That sounds like a bad idea.

Law school is EXPENSIVE, and law jobs are by and large stressful and time consuming. And the problem is that you don't necessarily have the choice to find a less demanding job. Public interest starter jobs are incredibly demanding and low-paying (eg public defender) OR actually required a high level of prestige (eg ACLU fellowship). Government jobs are highly sought after, and also tend to take the cream of the crop -- or experienced lawyers who have already paid their dues at BIGLAW. As for BIGLAW, just read any of the countless threads here on DCUM about how difficult it is to make BIGLAW work for parents, unless you are prepared for and happy to be the default parent.

I am a lawyer and I actually really enjoy it (mostly) and think it was a good career choice. But I started law school 10 years before kids, so by the time I had a kid I had already worked my way into a (mostly) gratifying and family-friendly position. If you're willing to sacrifice your husband for 10 years, then considering it. Otherwise, it seems like a poorly thought out idea.

As for student loan debt: Even if he gets a seemingly good scholarship for over 50% of tuition and ends up only say $45,000 in debt, you're still looking at a $500+ monthly student loan payment for 10 years. (Hopefully, your DH would not go all the way through law school only to end up on an income-based repayment plan due to financial hardship!)

If he goes full freight to a top-11 school (or whatever the kids are calling it these days) with a total debt of $150,000 then he's talking a payment of $1700 MONTHLY.

I agree with you that going to law school is a terrible idea for OP's husband, but I have found that most people who want to go to law school are incorrigible and impossible to talk sense into. He's going to go and odds are, he will regret it.

One correction: the full expense of law school is more like 200-250k. Tuition and fees alone will run you almost 180k, not to mention books, housing, food, health insurance etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the top of the class at ND can land a biglaw job or a good clerkship, why take on the debt?

Bc you may wind up in their bottom or middle not the top.

Law school isn't like undergrad where if you work hard and spend a lot of time writing papers you can do well. There is one exam for each course, that's it, and the class is curved so only a certain small percentage can get a good grade.

This could happen at Harvard too and is, in fact, more likely to happen there because of the stiffness of the competition. Middle of the pack or bottom of the class at Harvard is having a very hard time landing big law nowadays. At least if he was middle or bottom at Notre Dame, he would not have crushing debt to deal with.

I have an extremely hard time believing that any Harvard grad is unable to find a firm law job if they want that. It may not be Cravath, but they will find something in a firm with a starting salary north of $125,000.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the top of the class at ND can land a biglaw job or a good clerkship, why take on the debt?

Bc you may wind up in their bottom or middle not the top.

Law school isn't like undergrad where if you work hard and spend a lot of time writing papers you can do well. There is one exam for each course, that's it, and the class is curved so only a certain small percentage can get a good grade.

This could happen at Harvard too and is, in fact, more likely to happen there because of the stiffness of the competition. Middle of the pack or bottom of the class at Harvard is having a very hard time landing big law nowadays. At least if he was middle or bottom at Notre Dame, he would not have crushing debt to deal with.

I have an extremely hard time believing that any Harvard grad is unable to find a firm law job if they want that. It may not be Cravath, but they will find something in a firm with a starting salary north of $125,000.

Stupidity like this is how year after year of students keeps getting into trouble with loans. How is it that people like you still do not realize how much the legal market has changed since 2008? From the Wall Street Journal to the New York Times, numerous publications are doing a great job of spreading the word and yet people refuse to get it. I, personally, know four people who were middle of the pack at Harvard with full debt who are currently living with their parents because they could only find jobs paying ~80k and they have ~250k in debt. Even a 125k job won't put a dent in that kind of debt. When you and that kind of debt, it is big law or bust as far as your financial future goes. It is better not to get into that kind of got in the first place, then to gamble that you'll be one of the very very rare few who will lend that increasingly difficult big law job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the top of the class at ND can land a biglaw job or a good clerkship, why take on the debt?

Bc you may wind up in their bottom or middle not the top.

Law school isn't like undergrad where if you work hard and spend a lot of time writing papers you can do well. There is one exam for each course, that's it, and the class is curved so only a certain small percentage can get a good grade.

This could happen at Harvard too and is, in fact, more likely to happen there because of the stiffness of the competition. Middle of the pack or bottom of the class at Harvard is having a very hard time landing big law nowadays. At least if he was middle or bottom at Notre Dame, he would not have crushing debt to deal with.

I have an extremely hard time believing that any Harvard grad is unable to find a firm law job if they want that. It may not be Cravath, but they will find something in a firm with a starting salary north of $125,000.

PP here. Typos due to autocorrect. I should also add that Elie Mystal has written a lot about his experience as a Harvard Law graduate who landed big law and is still in a terrible financial situation bc he could not stay long enough. OP, if you and your husband fall into the law school trap, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

Stupidity like this is how year after year of students keeps getting into trouble with loans. How is it that people like you still do not realize how much the legal market has changed since 2008? From the Wall Street Journal to the New York Times, numerous publications are doing a great job of spreading the word and yet people refuse to get it. I, personally, know four people who were middle of the pack at Harvard with full debt who are currently living with their parents because they could only find jobs paying ~80k and they have ~250k in debt. Even a 125k job won't put a dent in that kind of debt. When you and that kind of debt, it is big law or bust as far as your financial future goes. It is better not to get into that kind of got in the first place, then to gamble that you'll be one of the very very rare few who will lend that increasingly difficult big law job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the top of the class at ND can land a biglaw job or a good clerkship, why take on the debt?

Bc you may wind up in their bottom or middle not the top.

Law school isn't like undergrad where if you work hard and spend a lot of time writing papers you can do well. There is one exam for each course, that's it, and the class is curved so only a certain small percentage can get a good grade.

This could happen at Harvard too and is, in fact, more likely to happen there because of the stiffness of the competition. Middle of the pack or bottom of the class at Harvard is having a very hard time landing big law nowadays. At least if he was middle or bottom at Notre Dame, he would not have crushing debt to deal with.

Much better to be thirtieth percentile at Harvard than 75th at North Dakota.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the top of the class at ND can land a biglaw job or a good clerkship, why take on the debt?

Bc you may wind up in their bottom or middle not the top.

Law school isn't like undergrad where if you work hard and spend a lot of time writing papers you can do well. There is one exam for each course, that's it, and the class is curved so only a certain small percentage can get a good grade.

This could happen at Harvard too and is, in fact, more likely to happen there because of the stiffness of the competition. Middle of the pack or bottom of the class at Harvard is having a very hard time landing big law nowadays. At least if he was middle or bottom at Notre Dame, he would not have crushing debt to deal with.

I have an extremely hard time believing that any Harvard grad is unable to find a firm law job if they want that. It may not be Cravath, but they will find something in a firm with a starting salary north of $125,000.

PP here. Typos due to autocorrect. I should also add that Elie Mystal has written a lot about his experience as a Harvard Law graduate who landed big law and is still in a terrible financial situation bc he could not stay long enough. OP, if you and your husband fall into the law school trap, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

Stupidity like this is how year after year of students keeps getting into trouble with loans. How is it that people like you still do not realize how much the legal market has changed since 2008? From the Wall Street Journal to the New York Times, numerous publications are doing a great job of spreading the word and yet people refuse to get it. I, personally, know four people who were middle of the pack at Harvard with full debt who are currently living with their parents because they could only find jobs paying ~80k and they have ~250k in debt. Even a 125k job won't put a dent in that kind of debt. When you and that kind of debt, it is big law or bust as far as your financial future goes. It is better not to get into that kind of got in the first place, then to gamble that you'll be one of the very very rare few who will lend that increasingly difficult big law job.

Sure, there may be a few outliers, but I think it has more to do with them than the market (at least as far as the very top schools go). I know one classmate at my Ivy who could not find a firm job even when graduating before the crash - but this was attributable to her own personal issues.

I don't dispute that there is risk involved in taking out a $200,000 loan for Harvard - but as far as risks in higher education go, it's still minimal, presuming you are a mentally stable person with a minimum level of social skills.

Also, if you're really only making 80k with $200,000 in debt, then I think you start to qualify for federal income-based repayment, which would be about $500/month. Yes that's a big bill, but doable if you live modestly in most cities.

Not saying that this is a desirable outcome - but it is a safety net for those rare HLS grads who for some reason can't find a regular firm job.

[Anonymous]

What's your husband's current profession and previous degrees? What kind of lawyer does he envision being?

[Anonymous]

Notre Dame has an amazing alum network which can really help. You will also be in a low cost of living area.
Not sure his scores would get him HYS but definitely a t14. It would be hard to turn down at t14. Georgetown has a prt time program so he could work and go to school which helps off set the cost.
t14 is a great choice. Money from ND is not a bad idea either with the alum network but I would not just go to any tier 1.
My DH and I did this - he went back to law school older. It is hard but doable.

[Anonymous]

Another thing to consider is that even if his grades qualify him for BigLaw, he will face unspoken ageism in getting hired. Junior associates at big firms are expected to jump when told to jump and do whatever boring scut work is necessary for the case. Firms know that it will be tough for an experienced professional to swallow his pride and start at the bottom of a very rigid hierarchy, and possibly supervised by a 28 year old.

Of course many attorney jobs let new lawyers take on significant responsibility early on, but they don't pay anywhere near as well. So that is the trade-off.

This is why it is imperative your husband know exactly what he wants to do before he applies. Also keep in mind that lower ranked schoolss will afford far less geographic flexibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another thing to consider is that even if his grades qualify him for BigLaw, he will face unspoken ageism in getting hired. Junior associates at big firms are expected to jump when told to jump and do whatever boring scut work is necessary for the case. Firms know that it will be tough for an experienced professional to swallow his pride and start at the bottom of a very rigid hierarchy, and possibly supervised by a 28 year old.

Of course many attorney jobs let new lawyers take on significant responsibility early on, but they don't pay anywhere near as well. So that is the trade-off.

This is why it is imperative your husband know exactly what he wants to do before he applies. Also keep in mind that lower ranked schoolss will afford far less geographic flexibility.

I think some firms maybe but a lot of people are happy to hire someone who actually knows how to work in the worjforce vs a 20 something that has never been employed before. And I think they recognize you were able to balance family and law school and understand you already know what you are getting into in that respect.

[Anonymous]

How difficult is the LSAT?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How difficult is the LSAT?

Don't really know how to answer that. It's a scaled test like any. Only 1 percent get in the 99th percentile. It's practically unheard of to get a perfect score. To do well you need to be familiar with the types of questions. The time constraints are also challenging.