Hypothetical law school question

[Anonymous]

Why not have him go to Georgetown and keep your fed job? I would not recommend moving to South Bend Indiana.

[Anonymous]

And without question go to Harvard or Yale over ND if big law is your husbands goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thing to consider is that even if his grades qualify him for BigLaw, he will face unspoken ageism in getting hired. Junior associates at big firms are expected to jump when told to jump and do whatever boring scut work is necessary for the case. Firms know that it will be tough for an experienced professional to swallow his pride and start at the bottom of a very rigid hierarchy, and possibly supervised by a 28 year old.

Of course many attorney jobs let new lawyers take on significant responsibility early on, but they don't pay anywhere near as well. So that is the trade-off.

This is why it is imperative your husband know exactly what he wants to do before he applies. Also keep in mind that lower ranked schoolss will afford far less geographic flexibility.

I think some firms maybe but a lot of people are happy to hire someone who actually knows how to work in the worjforce vs a 20 something that has never been employed before. And I think they recognize you were able to balance family and law school and understand you already know what you are getting into in that respect.

Firms like a 28 year old with 3 or 4 years of work experience. A 38 year old, not so much.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the feedback. Not sure if he will do it. Sounds like there are lots of good reasons not to. In our early 30's but I catch the drift that this is too old to switch gears. DH comes from a poor working class single mother family. He is the first person in his family to ever go to college much less grad school. He is an amazingly hard worker and often works through the night on projects. He has lots of stamina and drive. So far as I can tell big law hours wouldn't kill him in the same way that it would most people including me. DH didn't have much guidance in his educational and career choices and just followed his interests in college. He is very well educated but in an impractical field a low income potential. If you think that landing a good law job is hard, try academia. Now that we have a child and see how expensive it is to provide opportunity and enrichment, he wishes that he could earn more.

[Anonymous]

OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

Thank you for your post. We would much prefer to avoid serious debt and stay local. What is your take on whether a firm would hire a new grad in his upper 30's?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

[Anonymous]

I'd take the Hamilton or Rubenstein at Columbia or Chicago.

[Anonymous]

OP -- please read this:

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/04/deceptive-statistics-101-courtesy-of-a-law-professor-and-the-new-york-times/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

Thank you for your post. We would much prefer to avoid serious debt and stay local. What is your take on whether a firm would hire a new grad in his upper 30's?

I've seen plenty of students in their mid to late 30s get hired by big law firms. If it were you going to law school (i.e., the mom), then it's harder and there's more discrimination. But for men, I haven't seen that as a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Never knew any law professors to be at all involved in OCR. What school are you at? Are you a tenured professor?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Sorry your advice still makes no sense, he would lose the scholarship when he transferred as a second year anyway. At Penn, they would accept third years only as visiting students, those students get degrees from their original school. And of course, no one can predict how he will do, if he is not in the top of his class, he is stuck at the mediocre school with a worthless diploma.

OP, there is a reason everyone says go to the best school possible, because that is where it is easiest to get a good job. You don't want to roll the dice on a transfer that is more likely to not happen then happen. Your dh's age is unlikely to be an issue.

I'm sorry, but a diploma from a top 25 school is not "worthless." That's simply ridiculous. Let's say OP's DH goes to GW and gets 80% of his expenses paid for 3 years (b/c many schools are now guaranteeing full scholarships for all 3 yrs regardless of performance during 1L year) and ends up in the middle of the class. How can you say with a straight face that he would be better off graduating mid-class from GW with $40K in debt than at the bottom of his class from Harvard with $200K+ in debt. Either way, it's a risk because nobody knows how he'll do in law school. But why not make it much less risky by significantly lowering the financial burden of going to law school, especially if it means they can stay in DC and OP can keep her job?

As for transfers, it's true that he would lose his scholarship. But he would still save a year's tuition, which is nothing to sneeze at by going to say, Fordham, for a year on full scholarship (or close to it), then transferring to Columbia for years 2-3. Again, if he can't transfer b/c he's middle of the class, then he graduates with FAR less debt than if he went to Columbia all 3 years and ends up at the bottom of the class.

Just because you went to Penn and incurred a ton of debt and passed up scholarships at "lesser" schools, it doesn't mean others should follow that path. Look around your law firm. Are you telling me there's nobody at your firm who didn't got to a top 10 school? Even in this tight market, I can't believe that's the case. Those folks who went to lower-ranked schools probably came out w/ a ton less debt and now have much more professional freedom than you do.

BTW, I did work at a law firm for a long time, and I was very involved in hiring. You (and others) shouldn't assume that all law professors have no practical experience. Actually, OP, if your DH goes to law school outside the top 10, he might actually have professors who practiced law (or are still practicing law), know his name, and take a real interest in his future, as opposed to many professors at top schools whose focus is almost exclusively on their scholarship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -- I haven't read through all the responses, but I'm a law professor, so I probably have a better sense of what's going on in law school right now than most people on this thread. With those kind of numbers, your DH can probably get a full ride (or very close to it) at a good law school in this area. Make sure it's a guaranteed 3-year scholarship (not the type that lapse if your DH doesn't do particularly well his first year). If your DH does well at the lower-ranked school, he will get a job in big law. If not, he can transfer to a higher ranked school. Trust me, higher-ranked schools are letting tons of transfer in to make up for the revenue they are losing from first year students (since fewer people are going to law school these days). This is especially true if you guys want to end up in DC. If you want to end up in NY or California, then HYS might make sense because you'd have to give up your job in a few years anyway.

This is horrible advice, listen to the people who actually work in law firms. I'm the pp who went to Penn. It is not easy to transfer and even the top students at schools outside the T14 can have trouble getting jobs. If he can get into Penn or Georgetown, I'd go for it, but even then, he will need to be in the top quarter of the class to have the best shot at a good job. Going elsewhere, GW, Notre Dame, or Temple, probably not worth the risk. Any other T14 school would be worthwhile as well.

How do you know more about students' chances of getting hired than I do? You see what your firm does. I see the experiences of many, many students every single year. I bet I also know far more than you do about the type of money schools are willing to give students like OP's DH, and about transfer policies. If OP's DH is in the top of his class at a good law school, he will be able to transfer. Here are the transfer numbers for some of the big "transfer-in" schools for last year:

Harvard -- 33
Berkeley -- 55
Columbia -- 46
Georgetown -- 113
GW -- 97
NYU -- 50
Chicago -- 23
Northwestern -- 35
Michigan -- 19
UCLA -- 44

These are just transfer students who enrolled, so these schools obviously accepted many more students. Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, UVA, etc. also play the transfer game, the numbers just aren't as high. At a time when applications to law schools are plummeting, this is how law schools make money. They keep their first year class small (so that the average LSAT and GPA is high), and then accept a bunch of transfers w/ lower indicators because US News doesn't take transfers into account.

OP -- a lot of people will tell your DH to go to the best school he can get into. Many of those people are just giving the advice that they followed and don't understand that very good schools (e.g., in the top 25) will give your DH a lot of money to go there. Good luck to you and your DH!

Never knew any law professors to be at all involved in OCR. What school are you at? Are you a tenured professor?

Yes, I'm a tenured professor, but I am not willing to name my law school. At my school, many faculty are involved with students' career paths, etc. We actually take time to talk to our students, learn about what's going on w/ their job hunts, speak to the folks in career services, etc. And, by the way, I also spend a ton of time on scholarship before you accuse me of not being a "real" academic (as you already have implied by suggesting I'm an adjunct since I know something about OCR). Don't assume you know what goes on at other lower-ranked law schools. Most of the faculty at these schools went to HYS type schools, but we operate very differently than the faculty at those schools.