Dual language questions

[Anonymous]

Any exposure is great. done!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I have heard, and what I observe with my kid and my kids' classmates at a dual language elementary, is that if you don't speak the target language at home, you have very little hope for long-term native fluency in the target language. We have had Spanish-speaking nannies and au pairs and my kids speak passable Spanish and (having started at the school last year) are catching up to their grade level, but they are by no means fluent. I lived in other and had fully bilingual friends with fully bilingual kids, and I'd hear their kids chattering back & forth in both English and the target language, shifting comfortably from one to another. I NEVER hear this from the English-dominant kids at our elementary school. The langua franca (sp?) on the playground is English, even amongst those who have been there since PS.

Am I bothered by this? Not really. My kids are well above their grade levels in English and Math, and I think they will come out of the elementary school fairly fluent in Spanish. The dual language program offers a good challenge that keeps their mind busy, and I don't see their other skills suffering. Will they be fully bilingual? I doubt it. Will they survive in a Spanish only country and further develop their language skills? Absolutely.

But, IMHO, true bilingualism (sp?) starts at home with immersion at home. It is then reinforced in a school setting. My friend's daughter is very verbally fluent in French, and they started at Stokes last year. Since she was in an English-only school to start with, her French reading and writing are behind but she's catching up. Both pieces of the puzzle need to be there, and it takes a lot of effort. I honestly don't think it's possible to achieve full bilingualism unless someone in the household speaks it exclusively

I agree that learning the target language at a young age is a bonus and I don't care if my kid is bilingual or even proficient by the time they finish elementary school since they can always catch up in the other language later. My kid is above grade level in English and Math so I love having another language to provide a challenge and having something that he has to "work on" at school.

My kid goes to Yu Ying and my kid's tones are "perfect". It's incredibly difficult for adults to learn if ever so I'm happy that he has the opportunity to develop an "ear" at a young age.

English is my second language and I mastered it without my parents speaking it at home. My kid's Chinese tutor speaks excellent English (good enough to get a Masters at Georgetown) without ever having parents speak English at home. I don't think you need to have anyone in the home speak the target language to become bilingual.

That's great to hear about your kid, very encouraging.

But your last paragraph, keep in mind that English is de facto the easiest language to learn, even if in theory it has difficult grammar and so on, because it's spoken everywhere in the world, television, movies, business. Parents in every developing country want their kid to learn English, followed by other major languages. And it's very easy to learn English when living in the US. But this thread is about learning a language other than English while living in the US, which is completely different, and it really helps to have it at home. Though as your example indicates, it's possible without this.

LOL! No, English is NOT spoken everywhere in the world... don't know why Americans think this and expect everyone to know and speak English.

Our Chinese tutor came here when she was 22yrs old for her Masters. She is completely bilingual without having parents who speak English and without the benefit of an immersion program with native speaker teachers or peers.

My DH and I are both bilingual (different languages) without the benefit of our parents speaking the language and only living in the country where the second language is spoken in our twenties.

I'm still scratching my head over this whole "You have to have someone in the home speaking the second language from birth to ever become bilingual/fluent" conversation. My life is full of friends and family who have acquired a 2nd language to the point of fluency and some who started with their 2nd language as adults. Sure, native folks can usually tell it's not their first language (it's akin to speaking fluent English but having a southern vs. Canadian vs. New York City accents), but they are fully conversational and literate and can say or express or understand anything in that language.

It makes me wonder if those saying you have to have a family member speaking it from birth really haven't had the experience of knowing someone who is fluent but got there learning it later than birth and without a native speaking person in the household? Or is there some other reason people are holding onto this "belief" that it's the only way to become bilingual?

And that's all talking about people who've become bilingual as adults. It's even crazier to me to think that a child learning from 3 or 4 yrs old on, and sticking with it through school and into adulthood, would ever not become fluent or truly bilingual? Yes, sticking with it is key, but no one in this conversation was speaking as if somehow these kids will be fluent by the end of Elementary school! The whole reason schools like DCI and WIS have language offerings through middle and high school is to support students in gaining fluency.

At the end of all these posts, still no one has offered any evidence of why they think after all those years of study (for the students that stay in schools structured to support K-12 language study) and especially for those who continue in college, why wouldn't they be bilingual, now that we have a working definition of "bilingual" and "fluent". Which says to me... it's a belief without support, because until you show me K-12 dual language schools in the US and their proficiency test results by 12th grade graduation show that none or few of the students are fluent, there is no evidence that fluency can't be achieved. Even without a native speaking adult in the household speaking to the student from birth.

[Anonymous]

By the way PP who I bolded in post above, I am agreeing with you, in case that isn't clear!

[Anonymous]

Another YY parent here:
(1) I agree that the school seems to place a lot of emphasis on how new kids are miserable at the beginning. I always thought that was just setting expectations low. Yes, the kids are exhausted and cranky. but you know what ,for the first three months when my DS was in our local PS-3 public school program he was the same way! I didn't notice any difference in switching to YY. The second language does wear them out a bit more but we just try to be extra relaxing at home after school and on weekends, esp. after start of school.

(2) as someone who learned Mandarin as an adult I definitely see the advantage to starting a language, particularly Chinese, early. I happen to not have had a problem with tones, but I had some exposure to Chinese as a child and also I have a really good sense of pitch, so tones are relatively easy for me. On the other hand, many smart adults--see, e.g., Mark Zuckerberg--just cannot get the tones if they start Chinese later in life. Just the exposure alone for a couple of years will make a huge difference for kids who want to try to become truly fluent later. Ditto for characters.

Also I think that even just becoming reasonably proficient (which is the best I ever was, after years of college and living in Asia for a year) in a language is still wonderful. I will never be mistaken for a native speaker, but I have friends I can converse with in another language, I know enough to be able to travel in China, I've been exposed to another culture. And it's actually been hugely beneficial for my English. THe experience of having to distill your thoughts down to a limited vocabulary helps you to write and speak more efficiently. I really don't understand the obsession with being fluent...

[Anonymous]

As long as my child is able to converse (and read or write a little) I'm ok with that. Maybe she will decide to study abroad and that will give her more exposure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As long as my child is able to converse (and read or write a little) I'm ok with that. Maybe she will decide to study abroad and that will give her more exposure.

Agree. I am not expecting my child to become bilingual. If they are proficient, feel comfortable and have confidence that they can learn other languages or develop new skills in the future - bravo! I am honestly impressed so far - he is in PK4 at a dual language school and not only seems to understand things but is spontaneously saying words and phrases. I am tickled pink.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As long as my child is able to converse (and read or write a little) I'm ok with that. Maybe she will decide to study abroad and that will give her more exposure.

This. The immersion school will provide DC with the foundation to converse. I am merely providing him with an opportunity, among many others, to do something with it in the future if he so chooses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As long as my child is able to converse (and read or write a little) I'm ok with that. Maybe she will decide to study abroad and that will give her more exposure.

I understand that opinion, have no problem with it. I'm at a DCI feeder though and I'm actually really excited that those who started DCI specifically state that all kids who started a 2nd language by K in a feeder school, by the time they graduate 12th grade at DCI, they should be fluent in 2 languages (English and their 2nd language they've studied since K), and proficient in a 3rd. I have no reason to doubt that will be true given that they will - in Middle and High school - still spend I believe a minimum of 25% of class time in their 2nd language, which if you spread it out among 6-12 grades is still a large amount of time. Is it perfect? Will they sound like natives? No, most will probably not. But will they be bilingual at least? I think yes, looking forward to the first classes to graduate and hearing about what their language proficiency is.

The good news at the end of the day for all who value bilingual ed and are lucky enough to be at a bilingual school is, bilingualism in and of itself is good for young brains, they will at least be conversant in a 2nd language, and hopefully they will have an interest in other cultures. That is all good news! I'm excited by fluency, but not obsessed with it.

[Anonymous]

All the anxiety about "fluency" and "bilingualism" probably comes down to this: fear of being an outsider. If somebody speaks like an outsider, s/he is usually treated like an outsider. But every person on this planet is an outsider somewhere.

As a YY parent and a child of immigrants, I recognize that my kids will probably never seamlessly navigate Chinese culture, but my own navigation here isn't seamless either. Doesn't at all diminish the value of the experience, or the dignity of human relationship, which is always built in imperfect communication.