Dual language questions

[Anonymous]

I went to the Yu Ying open house the other night expecting to love it, since it seems like there are tons of benefits of dual language, and Chinese seems like it would be especially useful. There were a lot of really impressive aspects of the program; however, there were two things that the administrators said that have stuck with me. One is that the early childhood kids are usually "miserable" for a few months, since the program is 100% in Chinese and they are just lost for a while. I realize that this may be more of an issue with Chinese than with other languages, since it is so different from English, but I could see my toddler getting really overwhelmed in that environment. On the other hand, kids are resilient, and maybe that misery would be worth it for long-term gain. Second, they said that the test scores in 3rd grade tend to be lower than other schools because the kids are only learning in English for 90 days a year. I don't really care about the test scores component, because what they said makes sense. It did make me start to wonder whether the dual language model means that some other classes get the shrift, not just English, but also math, science, etc., since so much of the focus is on dual language.

So, as I contemplate my lottery picks for this year, I'm wondering whether those who have experience in dual language programs can talk about what has worked well and what hasn't. I'd also love to hear your experiences with the two points above (whether your child was miserable when he or she started the program and for how long, and whether you feel like academics in other subjects suffer). I don't mean to limit this to YY parents--I'd love to hear from people from other dual language programs, too. Trying to figure out whether dual language would be a good fit or whether to focus on monolingual programs moving forward. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to the Yu Ying open house the other night expecting to love it, since it seems like there are tons of benefits of dual language, and Chinese seems like it would be especially useful. There were a lot of really impressive aspects of the program; however, there were two things that the administrators said that have stuck with me. One is that the early childhood kids are usually "miserable" for a few months, since the program is 100% in Chinese and they are just lost for a while. I realize that this may be more of an issue with Chinese than with other languages, since it is so different from English, but I could see my toddler getting really overwhelmed in that environment. On the other hand, kids are resilient, and maybe that misery would be worth it for long-term gain. Second, they said that the test scores in 3rd grade tend to be lower than other schools because the kids are only learning in English for 90 days a year. I don't really care about the test scores component, because what they said makes sense. It did make me start to wonder whether the dual language model means that some other classes get the shrift, not just English, but also math, science, etc., since so much of the focus is on dual language.

So, as I contemplate my lottery picks for this year, I'm wondering whether those who have experience in dual language programs can talk about what has worked well and what hasn't. I'd also love to hear your experiences with the two points above (whether your child was miserable when he or she started the program and for how long, and whether you feel like academics in other subjects suffer). I don't mean to limit this to YY parents--I'd love to hear from people from other dual language programs, too. Trying to figure out whether dual language would be a good fit or whether to focus on monolingual programs moving forward. Thanks!

I think "miserable" is probably too strong a word, but the first few months of immersion are definitely really tiring for little kids. It is for adults also, if you have ever talked to someone who moved to another country, they often talk about their fatigue at the end of every day. It is incredibly taxing to have to interact in a foreign language for an extended period of time. What I have noticed is that they get used to it after about 2 months or so. Your children will be exposed to a lot more difficult things in their lives, it's a good thing to take on something hard but doable. That goes for adults also. Resiliency, grit, etc, etc.

It's also much, much easier for kids to learn 2nd languages than adults, not just because their brains are less developed. A big reason is because they have fewer issues with making mistakes, so they are much more willing to try to say something even though it may be wrong, and thus have a chance at correction and improvement. Many adults just stay silent for fear of being wrong and don't try and improve.

The general guidance I have heard is that ON AVERAGE, kids in immersion programs test worse in English in 3rd, about the same in 5th, and start to surpass single language students around 7th/8th. That's ON AVERAGE, of course there are a lot of situations where that is not the case.

The University of Minnesota has one the best language immersion education programs and is a good source for research and guidance.

http://www.carla.umn.edu/index.html

[Anonymous]

We're raising our children bilingual in a language not taught in a DC immersion program.

One of us speaks no English to the kids, and we send them to a heritage language school on weekends during the school year as well as summer camp abroad (not a camp for expats, one for ordinary local children who speak little English). We don't allow them to watch TV in English (they watch DVDs in the target language). My in-laws, whose English isn't the best are very involved, and we host au pairs who speak the target language year after year. Our kids don't need English to get through the day. They attend a high-performing DCPS elementary school, where they score high in English.

Few of the parents we know who choose language immersion in DC seem very serious about the exercise to us. The schools don't seem terribly serious about it either - some lack target-language speaking admins and fully bilingual children, policies and practices many parents in the school communities defend to the hilt.

I mention all this because I've become skeptical about how language immersion programs work in this city. I'd be surprised if most of these kids speak the target language well as adults. Things are different in the burbs and other US cities.

If I couldn't support target language learning at home consistently, I'd pass on having my kids learn a second (or 3rd) language until the upper elementary grades, at the earliest. Little kids learn languages easily, and all but forget them just as easily if they aren't reinforced into the teen years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to the Yu Ying open house the other night expecting to love it, since it seems like there are tons of benefits of dual language, and Chinese seems like it would be especially useful. There were a lot of really impressive aspects of the program; however, there were two things that the administrators said that have stuck with me. One is that the early childhood kids are usually "miserable" for a few months, since the program is 100% in Chinese and they are just lost for a while. I realize that this may be more of an issue with Chinese than with other languages, since it is so different from English, but I could see my toddler getting really overwhelmed in that environment. On the other hand, kids are resilient, and maybe that misery would be worth it for long-term gain. Second, they said that the test scores in 3rd grade tend to be lower than other schools because the kids are only learning in English for 90 days a year. I don't really care about the test scores component, because what they said makes sense. It did make me start to wonder whether the dual language model means that some other classes get the shrift, not just English, but also math, science, etc., since so much of the focus is on dual language.

So, as I contemplate my lottery picks for this year, I'm wondering whether those who have experience in dual language programs can talk about what has worked well and what hasn't. I'd also love to hear your experiences with the two points above (whether your child was miserable when he or she started the program and for how long, and whether you feel like academics in other subjects suffer). I don't mean to limit this to YY parents--I'd love to hear from people from other dual language programs, too. Trying to figure out whether dual language would be a good fit or whether to focus on monolingual programs moving forward. Thanks!

I wasn't present, but I suspect "Miserable" was intended as hyperbole.

I am a YY parent and in all fairness, I have heard that some students (mainly older siblings, entering for the first year) may have some culture-shock. (By no means all, my eldest was unfazed, though possibly more tired on Chinese days.)

[Anonymous]

My friends at Yu Ying really like having their kids in Mandarin immersion, but they don't feel that the math is very challenging.

My child is in a DCPS dual language program. Thus far, they are doing a very good job of integrating science and math into the curriculum, but my son is very young, so I don't know how well this is done in upper grades.

[Anonymous]

I predict changes to the charter language immersion paradigm (few native speakers in most of the programs, admins not necessarily speaking the target language, bilingual kids not allowed to test in to replace dropouts etc.) once several years worth of DCI kids have applied to college. This won't happen for 7 or 8 years.

I predict that many parents are going to complain when too many of the DCI seniors don't do as well on either International Baccalaureate exams (graded in Geneva) or SAT II subject tests as expected.

DC Charter is putting too much emphasis on equality/access to these programs and not enough on high standards in target language instruction and learning. We're lacking an acid test for quality for the time being because language learners aren't taking national standardized tests yet. The problems begin in PS3 and not because instruction is 100% in the target language.

[Anonymous]

I am rolling my eyes at Heritage Mom, who needs to beat the Non-native Admin horse to death yet again. Can we not have every single thread devolve into praises of how well Montgomery County does Chinese? Apparently it's good for native speakers, not so much for American learners in upper grades.

YY parent - the kids do fine in immersion. They are tired in the beginning of the year, but that is as much the adjustment to school as it is the immersion. The teachers are lovely, warm and wonderful with the little ones, so you don't have to worry that your child has been dropped into some dystopian Chinese hell. It is nothing short of amazing to see them understanding and responding in Chinese after only a couple of months.

As for the long term? Who knows exactly how it's all going to shake out? I don't worry about scores in the least--I know that my kids are going to be proficient or advanced on the DC CAS, so we're content to run our own race. I have also heard that math is not challenging enough in upper grades; we'll see if that changes as the school continues to improve and grow. Certainly there are plenty of parents I know who are ready to supplement and agitate for advanced programming, and I don't get the sense that YY is content to rest on its laurels.

Good luck to everyone applying this year. I know YY isn't right for every family, but we absolutely love the school and the community.

[Anonymous]

My PK3 DS just started at Mundo Verde and he has been happy from the start. I think the home visit in August really helped. We do not speak Spanish at home, though I am working on learning.
My first grader also just started, and she has not fully embraced Spanish, but she adores her English teacher. So we are really happy on the whole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to the Yu Ying open house the other night expecting to love it, since it seems like there are tons of benefits of dual language, and Chinese seems like it would be especially useful. There were a lot of really impressive aspects of the program; however, there were two things that the administrators said that have stuck with me. One is that the early childhood kids are usually "miserable" for a few months, since the program is 100% in Chinese and they are just lost for a while. I realize that this may be more of an issue with Chinese than with other languages, since it is so different from English, but I could see my toddler getting really overwhelmed in that environment. On the other hand, kids are resilient, and maybe that misery would be worth it for long-term gain. Second, they said that the test scores in 3rd grade tend to be lower than other schools because the kids are only learning in English for 90 days a year. I don't really care about the test scores component, because what they said makes sense. It did make me start to wonder whether the dual language model means that some other classes get the shrift, not just English, but also math, science, etc., since so much of the focus is on dual language.

So, as I contemplate my lottery picks for this year, I'm wondering whether those who have experience in dual language programs can talk about what has worked well and what hasn't. I'd also love to hear your experiences with the two points above (whether your child was miserable when he or she started the program and for how long, and whether you feel like academics in other subjects suffer). I don't mean to limit this to YY parents--I'd love to hear from people from other dual language programs, too. Trying to figure out whether dual language would be a good fit or whether to focus on monolingual programs moving forward. Thanks!

I wasn't present, but I suspect "Miserable" was intended as hyperbole.

I am a YY parent and in all fairness, I have heard that some students (mainly older siblings, entering for the first year) may have some culture-shock. (By no means all, my eldest was unfazed, though possibly more tired on Chinese days.)

Also, the generally accepted wisdom is that younger sibs tend not to have this issue or they have it less severely. The theory is that having grown up observing an older sib get such praise and interest for speaking Chinese, that they tend to dive right in. We found that to be true.

[Anonymous]

My child attends a dual language (Spanish) DCPS. It is half in English, half in Spanish. I am very serious about him being bilingual, and based on a completing PS-3, and now in PS-4, I believe if we stick with it, he will be.

Although not fluent, and rarely spoke it, he did have a lot of exposure to Spanish before he started school. He did not appear phased by it. After about two weeks of school he began saying words and singing in Spanish. He asks several times a day how to say words in Spanish. He currently speaks in entire sentences in Spanish and converses with native speakers. I don't know the hard numbers, but I would venture to guess 95% of the teachers that teach in Spanish are native speakers.

There are, of course, some issues that the school could improve upon. I believe we are working on those. But, the dual language aspect of the school is great!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I predict changes to the charter language immersion paradigm (few native speakers in most of the programs, admins not necessarily speaking the target language, bilingual kids not allowed to test in to replace dropouts etc.) once several years worth of DCI kids have applied to college. This won't happen for 7 or 8 years.

I predict that many parents are going to complain when too many of the DCI seniors don't do as well on either International Baccalaureate exams (graded in Geneva) or SAT II subject tests as expected.

DC Charter is putting too much emphasis on equality/access to these programs and not enough on high standards in target language instruction and learning. We're lacking an acid test for quality for the time being because language learners aren't taking national standardized tests yet. The problems begin in PS3 and not because instruction is 100% in the target language.

To me this is bizarrely negative speculation without any data to base it on. So if you have data, please share: on do you base your sense that DCI seniors won't do as well on IB exams or SAT subjects? Whether you think they won't do well "as expected" (in which case, please state your source for expectations), or if you mean you don't expect them to test as well as comparable IB programs, what programs and why do you think they won't do as well?

Lastly, if by your own post you say "we're lacking an acid test for quality", on what do you base your conclusion that however DC charters are handling dual language, that they're doing it in a way at the cost of quality language instruction? You generalize in your post, so your basis would need to be more than just one or two schools. What are you basing that on if you yourself say there is no acid test yet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We're raising our children bilingual in a language not taught in a DC immersion program.

One of us speaks no English to the kids, and we send them to a heritage language school on weekends during the school year as well as summer camp abroad (not a camp for expats, one for ordinary local children who speak little English). We don't allow them to watch TV in English (they watch DVDs in the target language). My in-laws, whose English isn't the best are very involved, and we host au pairs who speak the target language year after year. Our kids don't need English to get through the day. They attend a high-performing DCPS elementary school, where they score high in English.

Few of the parents we know who choose language immersion in DC seem very serious about the exercise to us. The schools don't seem terribly serious about it either - some lack target-language speaking admins and fully bilingual children, policies and practices many parents in the school communities defend to the hilt.

I mention all this because I've become skeptical about how language immersion programs work in this city. I'd be surprised if most of these kids speak the target language well as adults. Things are different in the burbs and other US cities.

If I couldn't support target language learning at home consistently, I'd pass on having my kids learn a second (or 3rd) language until the upper elementary grades, at the earliest. Little kids learn languages easily, and all but forget them just as easily if they aren't reinforced into the teen years.

There are two really critical things about your whole scenario that are different for the majority of DC parents sending their kids to public bilingual school and therefore make your situation not widely transferrable:

1. You (and possibly your spouse) and family members have been raising your kids with daily exposure to your target language (Cantonese I assume?) since the beginning. If there was a school that offered bilingual ed in your language (and you deemed it worthy of sending your kids to), your kids would be starting with a huge jump because they'd been hearing and speaking the language since they could hear and speak.

2. You obviously are in a position to bring a lot of other resources to the table in your family's pursuit of bilingualism. It is great (no sarcasm there, it really is great) that you can afford weekly heritage school, au pairs every year, and summer camp abroad every year in a local setting. But let's be real, there are a lot of well-resourced parents in DC, but if you put all the parents who are sending their kids to DC bilingual public schools together (charter and DCPS), the majority of parents aren't financially able to provide all those resources.

That's great that you are able to do all that, but unless OP is similarly financially situated, I don't see how anything in this post helps OP to evaluate whether it's suitable for her family, when most schools don't require or expect parents to pull off all that high-intensity language support the way your family is. You can't seriously hold DC public schools to the same expectations or outcomes as you have for your kids given how unrealistic it would be to expect most DC public school parents to pony up the cash for those supports the way you do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict changes to the charter language immersion paradigm (few native speakers in most of the programs, admins not necessarily speaking the target language, bilingual kids not allowed to test in to replace dropouts etc.) once several years worth of DCI kids have applied to college. This won't happen for 7 or 8 years.

I predict that many parents are going to complain when too many of the DCI seniors don't do as well on either International Baccalaureate exams (graded in Geneva) or SAT II subject tests as expected.

DC Charter is putting too much emphasis on equality/access to these programs and not enough on high standards in target language instruction and learning. We're lacking an acid test for quality for the time being because language learners aren't taking national standardized tests yet. The problems begin in PS3 and not because instruction is 100% in the target language.

To me this is bizarrely negative speculation without any data to base it on. So if you have data, please share: on do you base your sense that DCI seniors won't do as well on IB exams or SAT subjects? Whether you think they won't do well "as expected" (in which case, please state your source for expectations), or if you mean you don't expect them to test as well as comparable IB programs, what programs and why do you think they won't do as well?

Lastly, if by your own post you say "we're lacking an acid test for quality", on what do you base your conclusion that however DC charters are handling dual language, that they're doing it in a way at the cost of quality language instruction? You generalize in your post, so your basis would need to be more than just one or two schools. What are you basing that on if you yourself say there is no acid test yet?

I'm the PP asking the above questions - on 2nd part I should clarify that on your statement that somehow DC charters are not putting enough emphasis on "high standards in target language instruction and learning", what I was trying to ask is what other comparable schools and superior outcomes are you looking at that tell you that these DC bilingual charters are sure to do worse in the quality of language acquisition?

[Anonymous]

My neighbor's son completent French immersion at Stokes and is perfectly fluent. How do I know this? My child has a French-speaking nanny and tutor who only talk to her in French. Absolutely no English. My neighbor's son has come over numerous times and they are absolutely amazed at his fluency. His first language is Spanish, which helped him on the pronunication of French, so he has a perfect accent, or so I'm told. He learned English at about 2 years old and speaks perfectly with an American accent. This is just anecdotal, but I'll take it. My DC's French is amazing and she's already conversational at 6 years old.

[Anonymous]

I am a former YY parent. We thought that the school had a lot of strengths and were drawn in by the promise of fluency in Mandarin. Some kids are overwhelmed at first, but it could happen in any program. My nephew who attended a well regarded DCPS cried every morning for four weeks, then was fine once he got used to going to school.

We ultimately left because the school was not meeting our child's needs in other areas. We really disliked the evaluation system and in our case, it masked some issues. Students are evaluated on whether they are working below, meeting or exceeding expectations.