WotP elementary schools-- Attrition in older grades?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With the exception of Sidwell, all kids I know (and I know most of them) from Mann and Key who switched to the private school starting from 6th grade (and who were proficient or above, i.e. about 90% of the class -- see the DC CAS profiles) were able to go to the private middle school of their choice, St Albans, Nat. Cathedral, Maret, Holy Trinity (which is a very good school and is not pricey, so it is in high demand), Washington Episcopal, Washington International, Georgetown Day etc. None has been turned down (again, with the exception of Sidwell).

This is to say that hysterical parents, who started planning in 3rd grade and left in either 3rd or 4th grade to secure a spot in the top private schools, wasted money in 1-2 additional years of private school, annoyed the teachers and principals (these hyper-parents tend to apply to several schools, meaning multiple recommendation letters), stressed out their kids, annoyed and generated undue concerns in the other parents.

If your kid if a proficient kid, good report cards, good DC-CAS, I can guarantee that there's no need to start shaking from second grade (unless your kid is Baby Brain as the PP).

The outlook of enrollment in private schools in NW DC has dramatically changed in the past 5-7 years. Just take a look at the data from a dedicated topic of 1-2 weeks ago. With the raise in quality and attendance of local DCPS schools, enrollment numbers in private schools dropped by 30-70%, depending on grades. Inside sources tell me that the issue of decrease in applications (which reduces the possibility for private schools of cherry-picking the best students), and strategies to attract applications from good students, is nowadays in the agenda of all NW private schools.

So relax and enjoy your happy public elementary school experience until the end of 5th grade (and my recommendation is that there's no need to switch to private/charter if you are IB for Deal or Hardy -- two schools I am academically very familiar with).

PS: situation is different for the top charters. if your target is for instance BASIS or LATIN, then yes, go for it and apply one year ahead, for enrollment in 5th grade. Chances are much much higher by then, and specialized teaching make insertion in 5th grade (rather than 6th grade) smoother for kids.

Teacher and Parent, Ward 3.

Let's stick with Mann, PP.

This year, there are 25 kids in the 5th grade: http://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/School%20by%20School%20SY13-14%20Enrollment%20Audit_0.pdf

Two years ago, there were 46 kids in the 3rd grade: http://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Enrollment%20Audit%20Data%20School%20by%20School%202011-2012.pdf

So, Mann lost at least 21 kids from this year's 5th grade over the past two years. The number is undoubtedly higher as kids do join Mann in the upper grades.

While some families might have moved OOB or out of DC, most switched to private/parochial school. If all of the kids who switched in the past two years had waited until now to switch, the current applicants from Mann would be facing pretty tough competition for those private school spots.

The competition is bad enough already. I know of Mann kids who will be enrolling in their 2nd or 3rd choice school next year. Families who make the switch early, while acting in their own self-interested, perform a public service.

Regarding Mann: about 5 kids in the then 3rd grade went back to their home country between this year and the year before (kids from diplomatic families). At least 7 kids left at the end of 4th grade to Basis (5 kids) and and at least 2 to Latin . Few (like 3 kids) were accepted on board from outside in 4th grade. No new kids this year as we only have one 5th grade class. So we "lost" only about of 6 kids who indeed turned to private schools at the end of 3rd or 4th grade.

Any sources for your numbers, PP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With the exception of Sidwell, all kids I know (and I know most of them) from Mann and Key who switched to the private school starting from 6th grade (and who were proficient or above, i.e. about 90% of the class -- see the DC CAS profiles) were able to go to the private middle school of their choice, St Albans, Nat. Cathedral, Maret, Holy Trinity (which is a very good school and is not pricey, so it is in high demand), Washington Episcopal, Washington International, Georgetown Day etc. None has been turned down (again, with the exception of Sidwell).

This is to say that hysterical parents, who started planning in 3rd grade and left in either 3rd or 4th grade to secure a spot in the top private schools, wasted money in 1-2 additional years of private school, annoyed the teachers and principals (these hyper-parents tend to apply to several schools, meaning multiple recommendation letters), stressed out their kids, annoyed and generated undue concerns in the other parents.

If your kid if a proficient kid, good report cards, good DC-CAS, I can guarantee that there's no need to start shaking from second grade (unless your kid is Baby Brain as the PP).

The outlook of enrollment in private schools in NW DC has dramatically changed in the past 5-7 years. Just take a look at the data from a dedicated topic of 1-2 weeks ago. With the raise in quality and attendance of local DCPS schools, enrollment numbers in private schools dropped by 30-70%, depending on grades. Inside sources tell me that the issue of decrease in applications (which reduces the possibility for private schools of cherry-picking the best students), and strategies to attract applications from good students, is nowadays in the agenda of all NW private schools.

So relax and enjoy your happy public elementary school experience until the end of 5th grade (and my recommendation is that there's no need to switch to private/charter if you are IB for Deal or Hardy -- two schools I am academically very familiar with).

PS: situation is different for the top charters. if your target is for instance BASIS or LATIN, then yes, go for it and apply one year ahead, for enrollment in 5th grade. Chances are much much higher by then, and specialized teaching make insertion in 5th grade (rather than 6th grade) smoother for kids.

Teacher and Parent, Ward 3.

Let's stick with Mann, PP.

This year, there are 25 kids in the 5th grade: http://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/School%20by%20School%20SY13-14%20Enrollment%20Audit_0.pdf

Two years ago, there were 46 kids in the 3rd grade: http://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Enrollment%20Audit%20Data%20School%20by%20School%202011-2012.pdf

So, Mann lost at least 21 kids from this year's 5th grade over the past two years. The number is undoubtedly higher as kids do join Mann in the upper grades.

While some families might have moved OOB or out of DC, most switched to private/parochial school. If all of the kids who switched in the past two years had waited until now to switch, the current applicants from Mann would be facing pretty tough competition for those private school spots.

The competition is bad enough already. I know of Mann kids who will be enrolling in their 2nd or 3rd choice school next year. Families who make the switch early, while acting in their own self-interested, perform a public service.

Regarding Mann: about 5 kids in the then 3rd grade went back to their home country between this year and the year before (kids from diplomatic families). At least 7 kids left at the end of 4th grade to Basis (5 kids) and and at least 2 to Latin . Few (like 3 kids) were accepted on board from outside in 4th grade. No new kids this year as we only have one 5th grade class. So we "lost" only about of 6 kids who indeed turned to private schools at the end of 3rd or 4th grade.

Any sources for your numbers, PP?

Source? Mann is a very small school. I know the faces and names of the kids I am mentioning, those who went back to their countries (we had farewell parties), the 5 who are at Basis and the 2 at Latin, those who went to the private schools... we are still in contact with most of them, playdates, playground on weekends etc..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very few privates have admission years at 6th grade. The two charters that appeal to WOTP families, Latin and Basis, do almost all of their admissions in fifth grade. So at my WOTP school (a Hardy feeder) there is a steady bleed starting at third grade. The fifth grade is about 30% of the size of the kindergarten.

Parents have to make a decision about middle school in third or fourth grade, which means making a prediction about where Hardy is going to be 2-3 years out. So far few families have been willing to gamble on that.

Wrong ^^^

This is true at Key and Mann. Very small 5th grades. Not clear what pp thinks is wrong.

It is extremely wrong. At this time, with the current debate with the DME. I do not find it strategic to tell you why...
Hint: just look at the % of kids leaving each year (including K) at each grade instead of looking at the decrease in 4th and 5th grade population...

[Anonymous]

^^can someone spell out what PP is trying to refer to?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With the exception of Sidwell, all kids I know (and I know most of them) from Mann and Key who switched to the private school starting from 6th grade (and who were proficient or above, i.e. about 90% of the class -- see the DC CAS profiles) were able to go to the private middle school of their choice, St Albans, Nat. Cathedral, Maret, Holy Trinity (which is a very good school and is not pricey, so it is in high demand), Washington Episcopal, Washington International, Georgetown Day etc. None has been turned down (again, with the exception of Sidwell).

This is to say that hysterical parents, who started planning in 3rd grade and left in either 3rd or 4th grade to secure a spot in the top private schools, wasted money in 1-2 additional years of private school, annoyed the teachers and principals (these hyper-parents tend to apply to several schools, meaning multiple recommendation letters), stressed out their kids, annoyed and generated undue concerns in the other parents.

If your kid if a proficient kid, good report cards, good DC-CAS, I can guarantee that there's no need to start shaking from second grade (unless your kid is Baby Brain as the PP).

The outlook of enrollment in private schools in NW DC has dramatically changed in the past 5-7 years. Just take a look at the data from a dedicated topic of 1-2 weeks ago. With the raise in quality and attendance of local DCPS schools, enrollment numbers in private schools dropped by 30-70%, depending on grades. Inside sources tell me that the issue of decrease in applications (which reduces the possibility for private schools of cherry-picking the best students), and strategies to attract applications from good students, is nowadays in the agenda of all NW private schools.

So relax and enjoy your happy public elementary school experience until the end of 5th grade (and my recommendation is that there's no need to switch to private/charter if you are IB for Deal or Hardy -- two schools I am academically very familiar with).

PS: situation is different for the top charters. if your target is for instance BASIS or LATIN, then yes, go for it and apply one year ahead, for enrollment in 5th grade. Chances are much much higher by then, and specialized teaching make insertion in 5th grade (rather than 6th grade) smoother for kids.

Teacher and Parent, Ward 3.

Let's stick with Mann, PP.

This year, there are 25 kids in the 5th grade: http://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/School%20by%20School%20SY13-14%20Enrollment%20Audit_0.pdf

Two years ago, there were 46 kids in the 3rd grade: http://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/publication/attachments/Enrollment%20Audit%20Data%20School%20by%20School%202011-2012.pdf

So, Mann lost at least 21 kids from this year's 5th grade over the past two years. The number is undoubtedly higher as kids do join Mann in the upper grades.

While some families might have moved OOB or out of DC, most switched to private/parochial school. If all of the kids who switched in the past two years had waited until now to switch, the current applicants from Mann would be facing pretty tough competition for those private school spots.

The competition is bad enough already. I know of Mann kids who will be enrolling in their 2nd or 3rd choice school next year. Families who make the switch early, while acting in their own self-interested, perform a public service.

Regarding Mann: about 5 kids in the then 3rd grade went back to their home country between this year and the year before (kids from diplomatic families). At least 7 kids left at the end of 4th grade to Basis (5 kids) and and at least 2 to Latin . Few (like 3 kids) were accepted on board from outside in 4th grade. No new kids this year as we only have one 5th grade class. So we "lost" only about of 6 kids who indeed turned to private schools at the end of 3rd or 4th grade.

Any sources for your numbers, PP?

Source? Mann is a very small school. I know the faces and names of the kids I am mentioning, those who went back to their countries (we had farewell parties), the 5 who are at Basis and the 2 at Latin, those who went to the private schools... we are still in contact with most of them, playdates, playground on weekends etc..

I know Mann is a small school, PP. We probably know each other.

I think you are suffering from confirmation bias. Based on what I have heard about DC's classmates, I think the attrition to private schools is higher than you are willing to admit. I don't have the time right now, but when I do I will sit down with the Mann directories over the past couple of years and figure out where all of DC's classmates went. I am certain, though, that very few of DC's classmates were foreign nationals call back home.

Furthermore, I note that the OP did not ask about attrition due to private schools at WOTP elementary schools. The OP asked about attrition, i.e., about families that have so little faith in DCPS that they leave WOTP elementary schools before their kids graduate. The 7 kids you concede left Mann for BASIS and Latin might as well be counted in the private school column. They represent families that had so little faith in DCPS that they fled for charters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.gallup.com/poll/168848/life-college-matters-life-college.aspx

Ugh, "Ivy League" schools -- the obsession is so...20th century. Kids have much more pressing matters to deal with these days than their parents' vicarious social aspirations. Really wealthy kids are the only ones that benefit from the Ivy cliques they will be a part of there. All the rest are stuck, later, at 30 years old seeing a shrink to help them deal with how much they suffered along the way.

Favorite comment I've ever read on DCUM -- Ivy League grad here paying my shrink bill & reading DCUM as my lacrosse and hockey team and high-status sorority classmates have racked up fortunes and are retiring to islands.

-- Mother of Key students who has no planned pathway but anxiety about middle schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very few privates have admission years at 6th grade. The two charters that appeal to WOTP families, Latin and Basis, do almost all of their admissions in fifth grade. So at my WOTP school (a Hardy feeder) there is a steady bleed starting at third grade. The fifth grade is about 30% of the size of the kindergarten.

Parents have to make a decision about middle school in third or fourth grade, which means making a prediction about where Hardy is going to be 2-3 years out. So far few families have been willing to gamble on that.

Sidwell Friends has an entry point at the 6th grade, along with 5th.

^^ that's correct. PP's statement is patently untrue. First of all, there are no "admissions" at Latin or Basis -- it's enrollment to all comers based on sib/lottery. Plenty of private schools admit students at any grade, including 6th.

[Anonymous]

We left our JKLM school before graduation for private, but it's not as common as it used to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.gallup.com/poll/168848/life-college-matters-life-college.aspx

Ugh, "Ivy League" schools -- the obsession is so...20th century. Kids have much more pressing matters to deal with these days than their parents' vicarious social aspirations. Really wealthy kids are the only ones that benefit from the Ivy cliques they will be a part of there. All the rest are stuck, later, at 30 years old seeing a shrink to help them deal with how much they suffered along the way.

Favorite comment I've ever read on DCUM -- Ivy League grad here paying my shrink bill & reading DCUM as my lacrosse and hockey team and high-status sorority classmates have racked up fortunes and are retiring to islands.

-- Mother of Key students who has no planned pathway but anxiety about middle schools.

FWIW, I am another Ivy League grad who was never wealthy or upper class growing up (we were an immigrant family), who is quite happy with my Ivy Leage degree which eventually enabled me to get a job I like, a lifestyle I like and also was the place I met my (also not wealthy or upper class) husband. So I think most schools are what you make of them - hardly an automatic ticket to suffering

[Anonymous]

As a general rule, I find that parents who graduated from Ivy League schools, as my spouse and I did, aren't half as hung up on dispatching their little kids to them as those who didn't, and not just because they're secure in the knowledge that legacy preferences await. As an Ivy alum, you see college friends contending with the same sort of problems adults face everywhere - being unlucky in love, going bankrupt, getting fired or passed over for promotions, struggling to afford college, getting cancer etc. Somewhere along the way, you stop thinking in terms of an Ivy degree innoculating your children against life's hardships. Moreover, you think of brilliant and highly motivated grad school classmates who went to little colleges you'd never heard of. I'd be thrilled for my DCPS kids to get a great education anywhere there's one to be had.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a general rule, I find that parents who graduated from Ivy League schools, as my spouse and I did, aren't half as hung up on dispatching their little kids to them as those who didn't, and not just because they're secure in the knowledge that legacy preferences await. As an Ivy alum, you see college friends contending with the same sort of problems adults face everywhere - being unlucky in love, going bankrupt, getting fired or passed over for promotions, struggling to afford college, getting cancer etc. Somewhere along the way, you stop thinking in terms of an Ivy degree innoculating your children against life's hardships. Moreover, you think of brilliant and highly motivated grad school classmates who went to little colleges you'd never heard of. I'd be thrilled for my DCPS kids to get a great education anywhere there's one to be had.

Another ivy parent who seconds this.^

One important influence my ivy undergrad had on me was to really appreciate the importance of solid preparation. I went to a weak HS with little HW and had a rough time. Most of my peers whether from private or publics like New Trier or Wellesley high breezed through the first year. It was a mistake i am working to avoid with my kids and factored into our decision to pull the out from our wotp school at grade 4 because Hardy was the ms. We want them somewhere challenging enough to push them to develop good study habits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a general rule, I find that parents who graduated from Ivy League schools, as my spouse and I did, aren't half as hung up on dispatching their little kids to them as those who didn't, and not just because they're secure in the knowledge that legacy preferences await. As an Ivy alum, you see college friends contending with the same sort of problems adults face everywhere - being unlucky in love, going bankrupt, getting fired or passed over for promotions, struggling to afford college, getting cancer etc. Somewhere along the way, you stop thinking in terms of an Ivy degree innoculating your children against life's hardships. Moreover, you think of brilliant and highly motivated grad school classmates who went to little colleges you'd never heard of. I'd be thrilled for my DCPS kids to get a great education anywhere there's one to be had.

Another ivy parent who seconds this.^

One important influence my ivy undergrad had on me was to really appreciate the importance of solid preparation. I went to a weak HS with little HW and had a rough time. Most of my peers whether from private or publics like New Trier or Wellesley high breezed through the first year. It was a mistake i am working to avoid with my kids and factored into our decision to pull the out from our wotp school at grade 4 because Hardy was the ms. We want them somewhere challenging enough to push them to develop good study habits.

Good study habits are taught at home, not in school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a general rule, I find that parents who graduated from Ivy League schools, as my spouse and I did, aren't half as hung up on dispatching their little kids to them as those who didn't, and not just because they're secure in the knowledge that legacy preferences await. As an Ivy alum, you see college friends contending with the same sort of problems adults face everywhere - being unlucky in love, going bankrupt, getting fired or passed over for promotions, struggling to afford college, getting cancer etc. Somewhere along the way, you stop thinking in terms of an Ivy degree innoculating your children against life's hardships. Moreover, you think of brilliant and highly motivated grad school classmates who went to little colleges you'd never heard of. I'd be thrilled for my DCPS kids to get a great education anywhere there's one to be had.

Another ivy parent who seconds this.^

One important influence my ivy undergrad had on me was to really appreciate the importance of solid preparation. I went to a weak HS with little HW and had a rough time. Most of my peers whether from private or publics like New Trier or Wellesley high breezed through the first year. It was a mistake i am working to avoid with my kids and factored into our decision to pull the out from our wotp school at grade 4 because Hardy was the ms. We want them somewhere challenging enough to push them to develop good study habits.

Good study habits are taught at home, not in school.

Won't happen regardless of home influence if a kid gets straight a's without needing to study. That is where we are with our oldest. We have asked the school for more challenging work but it hasn't been provided.

[Anonymous]

As a parent who lives EOTP and will send her rising 4th grader to a WOTP school next year, I applaud you for making the best decision for your child's education as I am with mine.

[Anonymous]

St Albans usually enrolls six and under in the 6th grade. Great year to enter the school as each teacher has a homeroom and teaches four classes similar to an elementary school.