Horace Mann: K-5?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Personally, I changed my mind about Key and Mann because of their historical geography. Much of ward 3 sits on top of a huge munitions dump created by the US Army at the turn of the century. Thanks to AU and the US Army, the exclusive neighborhoods of Palisades and Spring Valley are sitting on dangerous and contaminated soil. The residents there want to keep this fact hush-hush because of property values. I think I'll stay east and south of the park.......If you don't believe read for yourself....

http://www.publicpolicy.umd.edu/faculty/nelson/740%20-%20Sally%20Wengrover.pdf

Palisades? Don't think I'd heard that before. Spring Valley, of course, and a little bit of AU Park, too, but Palisades is news to me. Where's that info coming from? (Don't live in any of the aforementioned; just curious.)

[Anonymous]

Key Elementary is in the Palisades neighborhood. Channel 9 featured this story about a month ago. Key was my number one pick until I heard about this and remembered the large field of astro-turf on which the children play....Please read this for yourself....

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=79269&catid=187

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Key Elementary is in the Palisades neighborhood. Channel 9 featured this story about a month ago. Key was my number one pick until I heard about this and remembered the large field of astro-turf on which the children play....Please read this for yourself....

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=79269&catid=187

That's interesting (although it doesn't appear to be related to the munitions issue in Spring Valley) -- thanks for posting. Is there any information to suggest that the air at Key is actually problematic (as opposed to just being "the worst in DC")? Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

" Personally, I changed my mind about Key and Mann because of their historical geography. Much of ward 3 sits on top of a huge munitions dump created by the US Army at the turn of the century. Thanks to AU and the US Army, the exclusive neighborhoods of Palisades and Spring Valley are sitting on dangerous and contaminated soil. The residents there want to keep this fact hush-hush because of property values. I think I'll stay east and south of the park.......If you don't believe read for yourself...."

Actually, I did a lot of research on the Spring Valley clean up before buying a house in A.U. Park, and I just don't see how you could say that the area around either school would be contaminated, either from prior use of the land (which didn't occur) or runoff (which wouldn't have gone in the direction of these two schools.

[Anonymous]

PP Could you provide some info.or sources that led you to conclusion spring valley was ok to purchase a house in. We are thinking about buying in that neighborhood but are not sure what to make of the munitions issues. TIA

[Anonymous]

I'm the 11:16 poster. I mostly researched AU Park, not Spring Valley. On the AU Park side, unlike Spring Valley, they didn't conduct chemical experiments. The Corps did find some arsenic in the soil on some properties, and it is unclear whether that happened because the government moved soil from the Spring Valley test sites to AU Park, because they stored some arsenic in AU Park, or for other reasons unrelated to the chemical testing. Regardless, the arsenic is pretty easy to clean up, whether by actually removing the contaminated soil or planting ferns to absorb the arsenic. It also is not a huge concern unless you have toddlers playing in (and eating) the soil, or you use if for vegetable gardening.

We actually bought a house outside of any of the areas of concern, and not in the direction of the Spring Valley run-offs, so I'm not worried about our property. I'm not sure about Spring Valley - that is where the chemical testing occurred, and the government has found contamination from a number of different chemicals, including in the ground water. However, there have been several public health studies, the most recent by Johns Hopkins, showing there there is no increase in health problems in Spring Valley residents. The Army Corps of Engineers has maps on-line that will show you where the testing occurred, where munitions and chemicals have been found, and what clean-up efforts have occurred. If you are really serious about a house, I would call Richard Allbright (sp?), the government whistleblower who brought the issue to the spotlight. He is now with the D.C. Government (Dept. of Health or Environment, I don't recall but you'll find his name if you start Googling Spring Valley munitions). He'll be happy to talk to you about what he knows (and he probably knows more than anyone), and specifically what has been found at a specific address.

(And I should say that Mann is located in Wesley Heights, which is why the Spring Valley contamination isn't an issue there.)

[Anonymous]

Contamination has no hard boundaries. Mann is across the street from AU!!!! It has been an issue for decades....I don't want my child playing in that soil or drink that water. A child of any age...Let alone LIVE there.....

[Anonymous]

Yes, Mann is several blocks away from AU, but if you look at the topography the chemical and munitions testing occurred on the north side of the hill, so the run off would be in the northwest direction, while Mann is south of AU. And it is clear from ground scarring and historical documents that the munitions testing was all on the other side of the hill. I would have no problem living in Wesley Heights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Contamination has no hard boundaries. Mann is across the street from AU!!!! It has been an issue for decades....I don't want my child playing in that soil or drink that water. A child of any age...Let alone LIVE there.....

All drinking water in DC comes from the Potomac, so unless you plan on drilling a well, that's a non-issue.

And you're wrong about contamination having no boundaries. If that were true, you might as well move to Nebraska, although even there you wouldn't be safe. The Spring Valley stuff is in the ground and moves only when the soil is moved.

[Anonymous]

There is so much resentment throughout this post about benefits accrued to parents sending their kids to Horace Mann. Better public schools in affluent areas - that is a fact of life everywhere in the U.S. (except in L.A., where we had horrible public elementary schools even in very affluent areas). So parents who send their children to Mann not only pay property taxes to send their kids there, but also much higher property rates - one of the reasons people are willing to pay over a million dollars for a small awkward home is because of outstanding public schools. This perpetuates the fact that those with means end up with better opportunities, but that's a far larger philosophical and political problem than just NW DC. And more complex than just money - I believe that D.C. spends among the most of all public systems on their students, but the results are generally dismal. I think at Horace Mann, all parents are asked to pay an additional amount (not coerced - it's voluntary) to support extra programs.

I wonder if all the annoyed parents sending their kids to Key, Murch, etc, would be equally concerned about the lack of opportunity in SE or NE D.C.?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is so much resentment throughout this post about benefits accrued to parents sending their kids to Horace Mann. Better public schools in affluent areas - that is a fact of life everywhere in the U.S. (except in L.A., where we had horrible public elementary schools even in very affluent areas). So parents who send their children to Mann not only pay property taxes to send their kids there, but also much higher property rates - one of the reasons people are willing to pay over a million dollars for a small awkward home is because of outstanding public schools. This perpetuates the fact that those with means end up with better opportunities, but that's a far larger philosophical and political problem than just NW DC. And more complex than just money - I believe that D.C. spends among the most of all public systems on their students, but the results are generally dismal. I think at Horace Mann, all parents are asked to pay an additional amount (not coerced - it's voluntary) to support extra programs.

I wonder if all the annoyed parents sending their kids to Key, Murch, etc, would be equally concerned about the lack of opportunity in SE or NE D.C.?

I would say you've explained one of the reasons a lot of people are choosing (the more desirable) charter schools: you don't have to pay over a million dollars for a house to send your child to one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is so much resentment throughout this post about benefits accrued to parents sending their kids to Horace Mann. Better public schools in affluent areas - that is a fact of life everywhere in the U.S. (except in L.A., where we had horrible public elementary schools even in very affluent areas). So parents who send their children to Mann not only pay property taxes to send their kids there, but also much higher property rates - one of the reasons people are willing to pay over a million dollars for a small awkward home is because of outstanding public schools. This perpetuates the fact that those with means end up with better opportunities, but that's a far larger philosophical and political problem than just NW DC. And more complex than just money - I believe that D.C. spends among the most of all public systems on their students, but the results are generally dismal. I think at Horace Mann, all parents are asked to pay an additional amount (not coerced - it's voluntary) to support extra programs.

I wonder if all the annoyed parents sending their kids to Key, Murch, etc, would be equally concerned about the lack of opportunity in SE or NE D.C.?

I would say you've explained one of the reasons a lot of people are choosing (the more desirable) charter schools: you don't have to pay over a million dollars for a house to send your child to one.

So true! Public school advocates say that the public school system will never get better if middle/upper middle class people don't support them... but guess what! I am fiercely against supporting a system that doesn't support everyone. Schools like Horace Mann should not be allowed to exist in a vacuum. The DCPS per child expense @ $18k/child is in the top thre or five in the country but the school system ranks 50th out of 50. It's not a question of resources!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is so much resentment throughout this post about benefits accrued to parents sending their kids to Horace Mann. Better public schools in affluent areas - that is a fact of life everywhere in the U.S. (except in L.A., where we had horrible public elementary schools even in very affluent areas). So parents who send their children to Mann not only pay property taxes to send their kids there, but also much higher property rates - one of the reasons people are willing to pay over a million dollars for a small awkward home is because of outstanding public schools. This perpetuates the fact that those with means end up with better opportunities, but that's a far larger philosophical and political problem than just NW DC. And more complex than just money - I believe that D.C. spends among the most of all public systems on their students, but the results are generally dismal. I think at Horace Mann, all parents are asked to pay an additional amount (not coerced - it's voluntary) to support extra programs.

I wonder if all the annoyed parents sending their kids to Key, Murch, etc, would be equally concerned about the lack of opportunity in SE or NE D.C.?

I would say you've explained one of the reasons a lot of people are choosing (the more desirable) charter schools: you don't have to pay over a million dollars for a house to send your child to one.

So true! Public school advocates say that the public school system will never get better if middle/upper middle class people don't support them... but guess what! I am fiercely against supporting a system that doesn't support everyone. Schools like Horace Mann should not be allowed to exist in a vacuum. The DCPS per child expense @ $18k/child is in the top thre or five in the country but the school system ranks 50th out of 50. It's not a question of resources!

Although it is true that dollars per student is not a perfect proxy for a school's commitment to children, there are two gaping factual flaws in your citing the dollar figure and the ranking.

1) DC is the only school system that consists entirely of a city, without suburbs and rural areas rounding out the numbers. COmparing DC to Maryland, California, or New York is useless. Maryland has Baltimore, a distressed school system, BUT it also has Montgomery County and Baltimore and Howard Counties. Philadelphia is distressed, but PA has West Chester County too. Comparing DC to Baltimore, Philly, Los Angeles, or Hartford would be more apt. This is not an excuse-- but the comparison to states is worthless.

2) You have to look at how the dollars are spent and what the needs are. The average DCPS building is over 60 years old. DCPS spends huge sums repairing leaky roofs, replacing leaky windows, heating fuel-inefficient old buildings, and remediating insect and rodent infestation-- expenses that are necessary precisely because of how low the overall investment in the system has been. Oyster was the first new school building in 20 years, and a private company footed the bill in exchange for valuable land.

Wealthy, suburban school districts not only have lower-maintenance facilities for most of their schools (because they're newer), but they finance new school buildings with bond issues that are not counted in calculating per-student investment. As a result, many of the best school districts have artificially deflated per-student numbers, and DC's investment in students is in part a band-aid for the deplorable physical condition of many buildings.

Per-student investment is also misleading for the same reason that comparing DC to Maryland is misleading. DC's need for student funding more closely resembles Baltimore's than Maryland's. Like many cities, DC has a high proportion of students whose needs can lead to higher expense: English language learners, children elligible for free lunch and head start, children with poverty-related disabilities such as lead poisoning cognitive damage and childhood asthma (which often results from exposure to roach waste and which creates learning challenges due to pain and absenteeism), the list goes on. The expenditure on students with heightened needs is higher in any district, but in DC they are a higher percentage of the student population.

So basically, this number, which is very popular with DCPS detractors and voucher promoters, has little value in assessing the actual resources that DCPS kids are getting.

There IS budget waste and Michelle Rhee is cleaning house, big time. Fire, baby, fire. But there is much, much more. Nothing is as simple as those numbers would make it seem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Although it is true that dollars per student is not a perfect proxy for a school's commitment to children, there are two gaping factual flaws in your citing the dollar figure and the ranking.

1) DC is the only school system that consists entirely of a city, without suburbs and rural areas rounding out the numbers. COmparing DC to Maryland, California, or New York is useless. Maryland has Baltimore, a distressed school system, BUT it also has Montgomery County and Baltimore and Howard Counties. Philadelphia is distressed, but PA has West Chester County too. Comparing DC to Baltimore, Philly, Los Angeles, or Hartford would be more apt. This is not an excuse-- but the comparison to states is worthless.

2) You have to look at how the dollars are spent and what the needs are. The average DCPS building is over 60 years old. DCPS spends huge sums repairing leaky roofs, replacing leaky windows, heating fuel-inefficient old buildings, and remediating insect and rodent infestation-- expenses that are necessary precisely because of how low the overall investment in the system has been. Oyster was the first new school building in 20 years, and a private company footed the bill in exchange for valuable land.

Wealthy, suburban school districts not only have lower-maintenance facilities for most of their schools (because they're newer), but they finance new school buildings with bond issues that are not counted in calculating per-student investment. As a result, many of the best school districts have artificially deflated per-student numbers, and DC's investment in students is in part a band-aid for the deplorable physical condition of many buildings.

Per-student investment is also misleading for the same reason that comparing DC to Maryland is misleading. DC's need for student funding more closely resembles Baltimore's than Maryland's. Like many cities, DC has a high proportion of students whose needs can lead to higher expense: English language learners, children elligible for free lunch and head start, children with poverty-related disabilities such as lead poisoning cognitive damage and childhood asthma (which often results from exposure to roach waste and which creates learning challenges due to pain and absenteeism), the list goes on. The expenditure on students with heightened needs is higher in any district, but in DC they are a higher percentage of the student population.

So basically, this number, which is very popular with DCPS detractors and voucher promoters, has little value in assessing the actual resources that DCPS kids are getting.

There IS budget waste and Michelle Rhee is cleaning house, big time. Fire, baby, fire. But there is much, much more. Nothing is as simple as those numbers would make it seem.

14:46 here... thank you!

[Anonymous]

i graduated from horace mann in 2000, and am glad to see they get to keep 6th grade for another year. those were some of the best times of my childhood.