Greedy Jewish tax collector

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. . . He began talking about what appeared to be the superiority of Christianity and then ultimately why people should donate momey to the church to help with expanding the church building. In talking about Christianity, he made a comparison to Judaism and used the term "Jewish legalism" I think in an effort to show that while Jews follow a gazillion rules to connect with god, Christians don't need to do this in order to enjoy god's blessings and grace. . . . Finally the pastor goes on to talk about a biblical story involving a "Greedy Jewish tax collector" and then ultimately weaves the story into the present and how people should donate to the church. My blood was boiling at all these, what appeared to be negative jewish references, and i walked out of the sermon. . . . Would you have been offended?

Frankly, I am wondering if you were missing the point of what the pastor was saying. For instance, the story if Zaccheus has nothing to do with jewish people in general being greedy. Everyone in the bible was basically jewish - jesus himself referred to gentiles as "dogs." Zacheus himself in particular was apparently despised (by jewish people) because he personally was a greedy tax collector. There's no anti-semetic inference to it. The story about the prostitute - she was a prostitute, and she became a christian, i.e., church-goer and non-prostitute. Again, I don't think there is anything anti-semetic about that either. So, while you say there was a bunch of other "superiority of chirstianity" rhetoric at the sermon, I am wondering if you did not just misunderstand what the pastor was saying. But it's hard to say for sure because I don't know what was said other than what you paraphrased here. Hope this helps.

I agree with this. Not meant to be anti-Semitic. Same as the story of Jesus pushing the money-changers out of the Temple. Many of the New Testament stories are about how the Judaism had become rule-ridden, prideful and had lost the sense of religion and soul - and Christ, a Jew, openly criticized these "Pharisees". Just Bible History 101. Of course, I wasn't there, but I would be surprised if the pastor was openly anti-semitic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Now, Carholics generally understand the Bible contextually and as allegory. It is not a literal accounting of historical fact. This is ver different from Protestant fundamentalist denominations that interpret the Bibke in a literal sense. It is because of this that Catholics can easily co-exist with the theory of evolution while fundamentalists seebitvasca threat to their faith.

I'm sorry, but in my experience it is not at all true that Catholics "generally understand the Bible contextually and as allegory". If that was the case, then 1) why were wars fought over the doctrine of transubstantiation? And 2) why is it that women cannot be priests, or that gays cannot marry?

Answers:

1.Those wars you mention were fought before Catholics changed their understanding of the bible. so it goes.

2. They kept the parts of the bible that served their purposes and built them into church doctrine.

But my point is that all of those are examples of Catholics taking things extremely literally. I'm not aware of any Catholic that understands Jesus to have been speaking metaphorically when he said "this is my body, this is my blood," even though (IMO) that is the most natural way to understand that.

Perhaps you mean that Catholics don't take it literally when Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? Of when he said give to everyone who begs from you, or let him who is without sin cast the first stone?

Are you Catholic PP? Orthodox? Both of these Christian Churches believe that Christ is wholly present in the Eucharist.

Protestantism is wholly defined largely in opposition, rightly or wrongly, to the Roman Catholic Church. I don't think the other ancient Christisn churches - the Orthodox, Orientsl and Coptic - have a dog in the Catholic-Protestant fight. Let us remember that the Protestant Reformation was largely a Westn European phenomenon initially aimed at reforming the Roman Catholic Church.

In terms of theology, ther is no a biblical foundation for "transubstantiation." The majority of the world's Christisns - Catholics, Orthox and Oriental -believe the Eucharist to be the true Body and a Blood of Christ. This is a belief held in tradition by the the most ancient Christisn communities even before the New Testsment www written down, hence there is no real need to prove it based on the Bible. For Protestant churches adhering to sola scriptura that believe that Christ is "fully present" - some Anglican, Lutheran and Calvinist churches - do look to the a bible to find their justication, basing their justification on the words of Jesus at the Last Supper as presented in the three synoptic Gospels - Matthew, Mark and Luke - and St. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Orthodoxy - as in Orthodox Christianity?

yes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not PP but I think she was talking about Orthodox Judaism.

No, Orthodox Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was raised in a reform Jewish household and identify myself as Jewish although not actively practicing. My husband grew up southern baptist (we met in grad school in the south) and also is not actively practicing his religion. We do go to church with his family, who are very involved In the church, when we visit them around 3-4 t

I also tend to mentally check out during church so unfortunately I wasn't paying great attention to the sermon, so I lack perhaps pertinent contextual details......

i think we all missed the part where op said she was not listening..
yes, the life work of Jesus was all among the jews of his day, yes, they had a gazillion of rules and animal sacrifice etc.
the tax collector was a traitor working for the oppressors and keeping the people poor.

Next time your mind wanders you can get a taped version of the sermon and listen to the whole thing again

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was raised in a reform Jewish household and identify myself as Jewish although not actively practicing. My husband grew up southern baptist (we met in grad school in the south) and also is not actively practicing his religion. We do go to church with his family, who are very involved In the church, when we visit them around 3-4 times a year. The church is located in a southern, heavily Christian area. I went to church with them this Sunday and was stunned at the references the pastor made towards Jews. Since my knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity is very limited, I'm not sure if his comments were atypical for a church or even, out of line... I also tend to mentally check out during church so unfortunately I wasn't paying great attention to the sermon, so I lack perhaps pertinent contextual details. It appeared as though the pastor began the sermon discussing father's day and the importance of fathers. Somehow the sermon took a turn and. He began talking about what appeared to be the superiority of Christianity and then ultimately why people should donate momey to the church to help with expanding the church building. In talking about Christianity, he made a comparison to Judaism and used the term "Jewish legalism" I think in an effort to show that while Jews follow a gazillion rules to connect with god, Christians don't need to do this in order to enjoy god's blessings and grace. He then went on to discuss a story whereby a prostitute, who initially aligned herself with "Jewish spies" ended up turning on them when she encountered Jesus, bathing his feet in very expensive perfume, which others could not understand why she would use such expensive fragrances. Through helping Jesus and believing in him, he saved her...or something to that extent. Finally the pastor goes on to talk about a biblical story involving a "Greedy Jewish tax collector" and then ultimately weaves the story into the present and how people should donate to the church. My blood was boiling at all these, what appeared to be negative jewish references, and i walked out of the sermon. My husband was also troubled by the language used. I thought about writing an email to the pastor and asking him to clarify his statements. Does anyone have any insight into the references he used or whether this is commonplace? Would you have been offended?

Yes, I would have been offended. Reading this reminded me of a few experiences that I've encountered at Baptist's churches in the past. My experiences with dealing with Baptist ministers is that they tend to always bash other religion and preach hate. I remembered listening to an anti-Catholic and an anti-Jewish sermon by a Baptist minister years ago. I just got up and left. Someone that promotes hate and tells lies about other religions is someone that I can't tolerate. Also, the veiled racism that was vocalized in the sermon was too much for me to handle. I just mistakenly assumed that maybe that was just that one particular Baptist church and that they all can't be that way. However, I've attended weddings at various Baptist churches over the years , I know that many appear to be very much anti-Jew and anti-Catholic. I heard some pretty mean-spirited and derogatory things at Baptist churches. Why do some Baptists feel the need to insert hatred toward Jews and Catholics every chance that they get is beyond me.

I visited many religious institutions over the years of different faiths. However, you couldn't pay me to step inside a Baptist church ever again, not even for a wedding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. . . He began talking about what appeared to be the superiority of Christianity and then ultimately why people should donate momey to the church to help with expanding the church building. In talking about Christianity, he made a comparison to Judaism and used the term "Jewish legalism" I think in an effort to show that while Jews follow a gazillion rules to connect with god, Christians don't need to do this in order to enjoy god's blessings and grace. . . . Finally the pastor goes on to talk about a biblical story involving a "Greedy Jewish tax collector" and then ultimately weaves the story into the present and how people should donate to the church. My blood was boiling at all these, what appeared to be negative jewish references, and i walked out of the sermon. . . . Would you have been offended?

Frankly, I am wondering if you were missing the point of what the pastor was saying. For instance, the story if Zaccheus has nothing to do with jewish people in general being greedy. Everyone in the bible was basically jewish - jesus himself referred to gentiles as "dogs." Zacheus himself in particular was apparently despised (by jewish people) because he personally was a greedy tax collector. There's no anti-semetic inference to it. The story about the prostitute - she was a prostitute, and she became a christian, i.e., church-goer and non-prostitute. Again, I don't think there is anything anti-semetic about that either. So, while you say there was a bunch of other "superiority of chirstianity" rhetoric at the sermon, I am wondering if you did not just misunderstand what the pastor was saying. But it's hard to say for sure because I don't know what was said other than what you paraphrased here. Hope this helps.

I agree with this. Not meant to be anti-Semitic. Same as the story of Jesus pushing the money-changers out of the Temple. Many of the New Testament stories are about how the Judaism had become rule-ridden, prideful and had lost the sense of religion and soul - and Christ, a Jew, openly criticized these "Pharisees". Just Bible History 101. Of course, I wasn't there, but I would be surprised if the pastor was openly anti-semitic.

I agree with these two pps. It sounds like OP was half-listening to the sermon, heard the word "Jewish" several times, and got offended without having any context about what was going on. I could barely follow her post because it's not even completely clear what bible stories was being discussed in the sermon. You should at least know what was being said before you get offended.

[Anonymous]

This pastor/minister/holy man doesn't sound very Christian to me, or very educated for that matter.

I hope your in-laws wake up and say something. They should not go back until he apologizes.

This reminds me of Obama's pastor who routinely spouted off all of his racists comments while the Obamas just sat there. Again, not so Christian but even worse because that southern minister may not actually know any Jewish people (so hard to believe but OK) but Jeremiah Wright for sure knew a few white people. Lovely that people trust the moral education of their children to these idiots.

Ok ok....the defense of Jeremiah Wright starts now....1, 2, 3....go!

[Anonymous]

OP me ER said what kind of Baptist Church this is. Just as their are Reform, Coonservative and Orthodox anew s, their are many varieties of Baptist: Southern Baptists, American Baptist Assn., and they range from conservative to liberal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This pastor/minister/holy man doesn't sound very Christian to me, or very educated for that matter.

I hope your in-laws wake up and say something. They should not go back until he apologizes.

This reminds me of Obama's pastor who routinely spouted off all of his racists comments while the Obamas just sat there. Again, not so Christian but even worse because that southern minister may not actually know any Jewish people (so hard to believe but OK) but Jeremiah Wright for sure knew a few white people. Lovely that people trust the moral education of their children to these idiots.

Ok ok....the defense of Jeremiah Wright starts now....1, 2, 3....go!

He was a Marine and a Navy Corpsman. Semper Fi Bro!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP me ER said what kind of Baptist Church this is. Just as their are Reform, Coonservative and Orthodox anew s, their are many varieties of Baptist: Southern Baptists, American Baptist Assn., and they range from conservative to liberal.

How is that relevant
In the bible the ancient Judaism is the context for the biblical stories

[Anonymous]

Yes, it is but the context of who and where is important. The baptist churches, which are among the descendants of the Puritan churches of New England, and other evangelical Protestant Christisn Churches are heavy on personal conversion testimony and witness. They are also generally biblical literalists, though their may be differences between more conservative and more liberal churches. I am not Protestant, o I sm not sure. The other descendants are found in the United Church of Christ, which is among the most liberal Protestant denomination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Next time your mind wanders you can get a taped version of the sermon and listen to the whole thing again

And pay even more money to fill this preacher's pockets. It's the constant requests for money that I find detestable.

[Anonymous]

Don't go back. Yuck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP me ER said what kind of Baptist Church this is. Just as their are Reform, Coonservative and Orthodox anew s, their are many varieties of Baptist: Southern Baptists, American Baptist Assn., and they range from conservative to liberal.

Yes, and while I'm not a Baptist, I think there are more varieties of Baptist than of many other Christian denominations. Martin Luther King was a Baptist minister, after all.