How do I know if I am middle class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Seriously, the lady posting that she has an HHI of $300k and a mortgage that is almost paid off in a good school district in DC and is *still* able to take vacations thinks she's not rich because her house is small and not updated? Are you kidding me?

It's sickening. Does she not realize how many people live in this area on an HHI of $60k, with kids to support? No, lady, you are RICH! Maybe we need a term like "working rich" because people seem to think that they aren't rich unless they don't have to work and live in a castle with granite counter tops, stainless steel appliances, theater rooms, ladies in waiting and a butler and a limo and a private jet.

You do realize that what you're saying is pretty much the same as what she was saying? She said we need a term for people like her who aren't middle class but aren't Paris Hilton. You said we need a term like "working rich" to distinguish between her and crazy rich people. So you basically just suggested an answer to what she was saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HHI is 230k. After 2 daycare expenses, a mortgage underwater, student loans- I'm definitely middle class in this area.

No, you're not. Middle Class is based on HHI -- not on the choices you made/make (i.e. to have 2 kids, to buy the house you bought, to take on the debt you took on).

In fact, many middle class families in the area don't even own a house because they couldn't afford to do so.

You make more than double the median salary for the region. You don't think people making $80k have expenses (childcare, mortgage, student loans)?

Wrong. Class is based on much more than income. It is also based on your level of education, your parents' level of education, your life style choices, your manners and your taste. Income is only part of socio-economic class.

No, when we're talking about middle class in terms of economics and we're talking about the U.S., we're talking HHI. It doesn't matter what education, lifestyle choices or manners are. We're talking cold hard numbers.

A guy with a high school diploma who likes NASCAR but makes some savvy business decisions, combined with luck, and manages to own a successful company, pulling in a high salary may seem "low class" to you but would still be upper class if his salary fit the definition.

We're not talking about the British, turn of the century concept of class and lineage.

Not true. Class is determined by more than just income. Education, job, etc all goes into class. Unlike GB, you can actually move among the classes here.

Yes, true. If we're discussing class from an ECONOMICS perspective, it is determined by HHI. Period. Economists don't factor in what jobs people have, especially given that in one household, one spouse could have a blue collar job while the other had a white collar job. Economists look at HHI. Period.

It just so happens that HHI is usually correlated with education (i.e. higher HHI usually means a higher level of education). But it's the HHI that really is the determining factor in whether an economist calls you middle class.

Neither of my parents have a college degree, but because they worked hard, they fit pretty firmly into upper middle class.

In GB, people can move around among the classes from an economists' perspective. It's from a social perspective that it's harder to "fit in." But that's a different type of class discussion altogether.

But when we are talking about whether someone in the U.S. is middle class, upper class, et cetera, we're talking about HHI and wealth (i.e. they may not have a high income, but have inherited money, et cetera). We are essentially talking about money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Seriously, the lady posting that she has an HHI of $300k and a mortgage that is almost paid off in a good school district in DC and is *still* able to take vacations thinks she's not rich because her house is small and not updated? Are you kidding me?

It's sickening. Does she not realize how many people live in this area on an HHI of $60k, with kids to support? No, lady, you are RICH! Maybe we need a term like "working rich" because people seem to think that they aren't rich unless they don't have to work and live in a castle with granite counter tops, stainless steel appliances, theater rooms, ladies in waiting and a butler and a limo and a private jet.

You do realize that what you're saying is pretty much the same as what she was saying? She said we need a term for people like her who aren't middle class but aren't Paris Hilton. You said we need a term like "working rich" to distinguish between her and crazy rich people. So you basically just suggested an answer to what she was saying.

You do realize that I meant "working rich" as a joke, don't you?

The problem is that she thinks the definition of rich is Paris Hilton. She said clearly at the top that she doesn't consider herself upper class. And she most definitely is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HHI is 230k. After 2 daycare expenses, a mortgage underwater, student loans- I'm definitely middle class in this area.

No, you're not. Middle Class is based on HHI -- not on the choices you made/make (i.e. to have 2 kids, to buy the house you bought, to take on the debt you took on).

In fact, many middle class families in the area don't even own a house because they couldn't afford to do so.

You make more than double the median salary for the region. You don't think people making $80k have expenses (childcare, mortgage, student loans)?

Wrong. Class is based on much more than income. It is also based on your level of education, your parents' level of education, your life style choices, your manners and your taste. Income is only part of socio-economic class.

No, when we're talking about middle class in terms of economics and we're talking about the U.S., we're talking HHI. It doesn't matter what education, lifestyle choices or manners are. We're talking cold hard numbers.

A guy with a high school diploma who likes NASCAR but makes some savvy business decisions, combined with luck, and manages to own a successful company, pulling in a high salary may seem "low class" to you but would still be upper class if his salary fit the definition.

We're not talking about the British, turn of the century concept of class and lineage.

Not true. Class is determined by more than just income. Education, job, etc all goes into class. Unlike GB, you can actually move among the classes here.

Yes, true. If we're discussing class from an ECONOMICS perspective, it is determined by HHI. Period. Economists don't factor in what jobs people have, especially given that in one household, one spouse could have a blue collar job while the other had a white collar job. Economists look at HHI. Period.

It just so happens that HHI is usually correlated with education (i.e. higher HHI usually means a higher level of education). But it's the HHI that really is the determining factor in whether an economist calls you middle class.

Neither of my parents have a college degree, but because they worked hard, they fit pretty firmly into upper middle class.

In GB, people can move around among the classes from an economists' perspective. It's from a social perspective that it's harder to "fit in." But that's a different type of class discussion altogether.

But when we are talking about whether someone in the U.S. is middle class, upper class, et cetera, we're talking about HHI and wealth (i.e. they may not have a high income, but have inherited money, et cetera). We are essentially talking about money.

Class is not an economic measurement. It is a social one.

[Anonymous]

See www.newyorktimes.com/national/class

[Anonymous]

The strangest thing about this discussion, is that all these rich people who think political discussion about "middle class," is talk about them.

I still can't get over the fact that someone who makes 300k doesn't think they're "upper class."

A billionaire is "super rich," but if you're making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, you are solidly "upper class."

And talk about helping America's middle class, is not talking about your 300k ass.

[Anonymous]

How funny that people think the US doesn't have a social definition of class, too.

Honey Boo Boo and the Jersey Shore people make more money than I do. But I hardly think anyone would define them as upper class, even if the numbers say they are doing quite well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How funny that people think the US doesn't have a social definition of class, too.

Honey Boo Boo and the Jersey Shore people make more money than I do. But I hardly think anyone would define them as upper class, even if the numbers say they are doing quite well.

If they're making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, I would most definitely classify them as "upper class." Maybe not classy, but unhesitatingly upper class.

[Anonymous]

People who don't understand that class in the US is more than just money need to take a sociology 101 class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People who don't understand that class in the US is more than just money need to take a sociology 101 class.

People who don't understand that there are variations and nunances of the word "class" need to take a Semantics 101 "class."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Seriously, the lady posting that she has an HHI of $300k and a mortgage that is almost paid off in a good school district in DC and is *still* able to take vacations thinks she's not rich because her house is small and not updated? Are you kidding me?

It's sickening. Does she not realize how many people live in this area on an HHI of $60k, with kids to support? No, lady, you are RICH! Maybe we need a term like "working rich" because people seem to think that they aren't rich unless they don't have to work and live in a castle with granite counter tops, stainless steel appliances, theater rooms, ladies in waiting and a butler and a limo and a private jet.

You do realize that what you're saying is pretty much the same as what she was saying? She said we need a term for people like her who aren't middle class but aren't Paris Hilton. You said we need a term like "working rich" to distinguish between her and crazy rich people. So you basically just suggested an answer to what she was saying.

You do realize that I meant "working rich" as a joke, don't you?

The problem is that she thinks the definition of rich is Paris Hilton. She said clearly at the top that she doesn't consider herself upper class. And she most definitely is.

Sure, you're being snide, I get that. But I do think there is some legitimacy to saying I'm very fortunate and well off and sure, upper class, but there exists another echelon of wealth that I will never break into.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who don't understand that class in the US is more than just money need to take a sociology 101 class.

People who don't understand that there are variations and nunances of the word "class" need to take a Semantics 101 "class."

But that's the thing - there isn't a variation - you are just wrong. You are talking about income and/or wealth. We are talking about class. OP's original question is how does she know if she is middle class, not how does she know if she is rich or poor. There is a huge distinction that you are refusing to acknowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The problem is that she thinks the definition of rich is Paris Hilton. She said clearly at the top that she doesn't consider herself upper class. And she most definitely is.

Actually, what she said was:

I think we need another category, something between middles class and rich. Upper middle class does not cut it because everyone is fighting over what makes up the "middle".

and then later

We recognize we are very well off, but not rich in the common understanding of that word as portrayed in movies and on TV.

She never said a word about not being upper class. She said that the current word choices don't work very well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think we need another category, something between middles class and rich. Upper middle class does not cut it because everyone is fighting over what makes up the "middle".

Our HHI is $300K+, two working parents. We have a small amount of debt in addition to our mortgage but all student debt is paid off and we are on track to eliminate all non-mortgage debt within the year. We live in a small, not updated, close in house in DC with a good school district. We expect to finally be able to update our house in the next year or so once (1) non-mortgage debt is gone, and (2) our youngest starts K and there is no more private preschool/daycare bill. We can afford to eat mostly organic, take occasional vacations, drive decent cars that we keep for about 10 years, and we will ensure that our children have excellent educational options and can attend the best college for them that they get into. We are saving for retirement. We usually drive over flying when traveling because of cost but we will stay in nice hotels because we like them. We recognize we are very well off, but not rich in the common understanding of that word as portrayed in movies and on TV. We do not make financial decisions without thinking them through. We get upset when there is a problem with the a/c or roof or something else because such expenses are a big deal to us.

So, what is the name for this category that does not (1) insult people that are struggling financially because it understates how well off a HH is as compared to the country and the world or (2) overstate how well off a HH is in its day to day experience of life and relative to the truly wealthy.

We don't need another category. You are upper class. That doesn't mean you never have any financial worries, of course. Even the richest people I know seem to worry about money a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who don't understand that class in the US is more than just money need to take a sociology 101 class.

People who don't understand that there are variations and nunances of the word "class" need to take a Semantics 101 "class."

But that's the thing - there isn't a variation - you are just wrong. You are talking about income and/or wealth. We are talking about class. OP's original question is how does she know if she is middle class, not how does she know if she is rich or poor. There is a huge distinction that you are refusing to acknowledge.

I seriously wonder if there's some cultural mis-translation going on. There's "class" and there's "Class." Yes, OP should have clarified, but when I think "lower/middle/upper" class, I most definitely think of income and/or wealth. I understand you think differently, but there are multiple definitions of the term. I didn't grow up thinking about the social stuff loaded into "class," though I understand that for some, there are distinctions. Perhaps you grew up focusing more on those distinctions? Money however, is generally the great equalizer, and that definition of "class" is a much more contemporary classification, imho.