Germany has now banned this...
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
Dude chill out. You attacked the wrong pp and you sound a little AS yourself. Go light a firework. |
Anonymous
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But WHY should it be justified that one religion gets to inflict bodily harm on a child and others don't? It's not a question of whether there are true cases of potential female circumcision or not, it's a question of establishing a law that has NO exceptions in order to avoid abuse. In this case the boy died (I know, we'll all conveniently forget the cases of male circumcision gone wrong, right?). Part of the reason why they are trying to ban circumcision is the fact that malpractice cases in Germany aren't nearly as "easy" as they are in the US, mainly because the law is more forgiving. (Parents who starve or otherwise neglect their children to death get 8-15 years, rapists get set free after untrained psychologists clear them, etc., many cases would have a much different outcome in this country)
And before you all hiss and huff and call Germans Nazis again, be aware that the final verdict is far from out. This case isn't over and there are many critical voices in Germany regarding the impact of this on Jews and other groups. It's not black and white, people, and as someone who studied law in Germany, I can assure you that you Americans did a great job writing the Grundgesetz, which will likely call for reconsidering the verdict. I wish people would actually bother to consult more than one media outlet to come up with an informed opinion, especially when it comes to calling an entire country anti semitic. |
Anonymous
It isn't my goal to win this argument.  You had said that circ men are satisfied with their sex life, and I was pointing out that many of them are not that happy about being circumcised. Hey, but I'm actually providing sources for my anecdotes.
Did you seriously refer me to mothering? That is the most pro-intact forum out there. See the scary circ stories on the 34-page long thread titled "If you regret circumcising your son(s), please post here" http://www.mothering.com/community/t/112410/if-you-regret-circumcising-your-son-s-please-post-here Also, if that wasn't enough, the babycenter thread on Re-circumcision and penile adhesion surgery http://community.babycenter.com/post/a10051525/re-circumcision_and_penile_adhesion_surgery further convinced me not to prophylactically circumcise my boy. There is simply no reason to. He will only be circ if he makes that decision himself when he is older, or if he does end up having foreskin problems during infancy that require the surgery. Speaking of the foreskin problems you mentioned - can you point me to a source that rivals the experiences of those women wishing they hadn't circ their sons? Not being snarky, just in all my searches I never came across any downsides to an intact penis that are as serious as the consequences of a botched circ surgery. |
Anonymous
I'm sure it is, but, unless you've been circ'd as an adult, you simply don't know what it's like with a foreskin. As for why it's women, and not men who are more vocal about not circumcising, this guys addresses the issue, and explains the attitudes of men like you quite well: http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html "First of all, you need to understand that circumcised men are cornered on this issue. They were circumcised without their consent and have no inherent knowledge of what being intact is like. Even though they rarely will discuss the issue, they are keenly aware that they have been surgically altered in a very private way. There are several ways for a man to deal with this issue but the safest way, psychologically speaking, is to believe at all cost that the surgery performed on them was an enhancement and is preferred by women. Confirmation of this belief is essential to their sexual self-image. [....] I think it's important to acknowledge that its perfectly understandable that our circumcised friends react this way. Men who have been circumcised have an extremely difficult dilemma. For them to acknowledge that the practice is unnecessary and harmful means that they must acknowledge a painful personal reality. For that reason circumcised men can be forgiven if they don't want to lead the parade in the fight against routine infant circumcision. I can empathize and therefore understand completely why so many men will voluntarily offer their sons up for the same procedure without giving it a second thought. To do otherwise opens them up to some vulnerable feelings that can be most unpleasant. " |
Anonymous
I find it irresponsible to promote circumcision as a tool to prevent STDs (not you, PP, just the way these studies are advertised in general). It's not a vaccine, it doesn't replace a condom and safe sexual practices. Statistics can be misleading. This is one of the studies - Male Circumcision for the Prevention of HSV-2 and HPV Infections and Syphilis. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0802556#t=article If you look at the actual numbers in the study: Herpes SV-2: contracted by 114 of 1370 circumcised men; and 153 of 1395 intact men Syphilis: contracted by 50 of 2083 circumcised men; and 45 of 2143 intact men (note that circumcision appears to increase the risk of infection). HPV: contracted by 42 of 233 circumcised men; and with 80 of 287 intact men While cumulatively they might be more relevant at global scale, on an individual level, these statistics are meaningless in affecting my decision to circumcise. |
Anonymous
And: Male circumcision and HIV prevention insufficient evidence and neglected external validity. 2010 Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, University of California at San Francisco, USA http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20965388 |
Anonymous
| Very good news. I did not circumcise my son (my husband is circumcised and agreed not to do this to our newborn son). I'm not against the procedure.....I just feel that this permanent procedure is my son's choice. |
Anonymous
Really? What about transmission of HIV, herpes simplex II and HPV? You sound like someone from the anti-vax crowd. There is risk in anything that we do. I've got skin tags that I get removed. There's a chance one could get infected and there could be horrible consequences. The chances are slim but it's happened before - just like there have been bad circumcisions. That doesn't mean there should be a ban on removing skin tags. |
Anonymous
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This is a video of an infant circumcision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXVFFI76ff0
And this is a really good argument against routine infant circumcision: "50 Reasons to Leave It Alone Your son's penis, that is." http://9davids.blogspot.com/2010/11/50-reasons-to-leave-it-alone.html 1.) It's his. 2.) I've never met a man who wanted "less" penis when he was old enough to care. Men tend to like their penises just the way they are. 3.) You can change your mind. It's not possible to "un-circumcise", although there are men who have chosen to restore their foreskin later in life. If you're not sure, don't decide at all. It's a non-decision. 
4.) There is no medical reason to do it routinely. 5.) Circumcision isn't the majority for newborns anymore. According to the New York Times, the infant circumcision rate is down to 32%. That means 68% of your son's locker room will likely have natural penises. If you circumcise, he will probably ask you why he's different from his buddies. 6.) Natural penises are easier to take care of during the diaper-changing years. Just wipe it like a finger. No retracting, no mess or fuss. Compare that to having to care for an open wound in a diaper. 7.) You wouldn't cut your baby girl's genitals. In fact, it's illegal - even a "nick" is illegal. Male circumcision is a lot more involved than a nick! 8.) Many doctors and nurses refuse to perform the procedure because it violates the Hippocratic Oath - First, Do No Harm. 9.) It hurts. A lot. Really. Don't believe me? Watch a video. With the sound up, please. If you can't watch the whole thing, can you really ask your newborn to go through it? 10.) Babies can't be properly anesthetized. An older child or adult would be given anesthesia and strong pain medication after any kind of operation, especially one on their genitals. Babies can't have the same level of anesthesia and after-care medicine that an older child or an adult would receive. 11.) Did you know? Infant circumcision rates are less than 10% in the following counties: England, France, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Canada, Mexico, all of South and Central America, Japan, China, Russia, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Greece, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Sri Lanka, New Zealand, Australia and more. Infant circumcision rates are higher than 10% in the following countries: USA, Israel, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bahrain, Kuwait, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Qatar, Turkey, Jordan, Philippines, Indonesia, Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad, Republic of Congo, Eritrea, and Kenya. 12.) Men with natural penises are less likely to experience Erectile Dysfunction as they age. Translation - your son will be less likely to need Viagra when he's 55. 13.) Female sexual partners of men with natural penises are more likely to achieve orgasm during sexual intercourse. They are also less likely to need lubricant. 14.) There are over 20,000 nerve endings in the foreskin. That's more than in the female clitoris. 15.) The foreskin protects the head of the penis. 16.) The foreskin provides lubrication during sexual intercourse. Men with natural penises are less likely to use lubrication during sex or masturbation. 17.) No major medical organization on earth recommends routine circumcision of infants. 18.) It's easy to clean when he's older. Shower. Besides, by the time his foreskin is retractable, (average age, 10.4 years old), you will no longer be cleaning his penis. I hope. 19.) Circumcision does not prevent AIDS, or any other STD. Condoms do. Having sex with one, monogamous partner and avoiding IV drug use prevents AIDS. Why would you assume your baby's going to be a man-whore anyway? 20.) We don't chop off ears to prevent ear infections. We don't remove baby toenails to prevent fungal infections. We don't cut off body parts anymore when a wound becomes infected. In the very unlikely event your son does develop an infection, we have antibiotics. 21.) Circumcision in the US began as a method to discourage masturbation, advocated by Kellogg, the cereal magnate, who also believed in the importance of daily cold enemas. Really - true story!! He stressed that circumcision should be done without anesthesia so boys would remember the pain every time they wanted to masturbate. How'd that work out? 22.) Natural penises only "look funny" to you if they are unfamiliar to you. Your son's generation will see them as normal. 23.) Women produce far more smegma than men, but we don't cut off their baby girl labia to keep things "clean." 24.) Your son will respect you for leaving the decision up to him, and for respecting his right to genital integrity. 25.) Complications of circumcision are NOT rare. Check out this thread on Babycenter.com (a mommy board, not a circumcision website) to read their stories. 26.) Most hospital circumcisions are performed by Obstetricians and Gynecologists, whose specialty is female reproduction, not male. 27.) Circumcision is not usually performed in a sterile operating room, but in a dirty nursery or a side room in hospitals without nurseries. 28.) Circumcision makes money for doctors. A doctor who performs circumcisions makes an extra $20,000-160,000 per year on the operations. That's why they offer circumcision at hospitals - for cash. They'll ask you if you want your son circumcised multiple times at the hospital: they want the money. 29.) Less than 1% of men with foreskins will ever "need" to be circumcised, just as the vast majority of women will never need a hysterectomy or mastectomy. We don't remove tonsils or fingernails or anything else at birth "in case" it has a problem. 30.) Penile cancer causes 300 deaths a year, almost exclusively in men over the age of 70. Infant circumcision causes over 500 deaths a year worldwide. Circumcision does not prevent penile cancer. 31.) Babies with foreskins are more likely to breastfeed successfully. Infant circumcision interferes with breastfeeding and hinders breastfeeding success. Isn't breastfeeding hard enough? 32.) Fathers don't spend time comparing penises with their sons. If your son does notice that his penis is different from Dad's (other than size and hair), you can simply explain that Daddy had an operation when he was a baby. My dad lost half of his ring finger in an accident, but I was never bothered by having all of my fingers. 33.) Your grandfather (or great-grandfather) probably wasn't circumcised, unless you are of Jewish or Muslim descent. It's a relatively new thing in the USA. Abe Lincoln and George Washington had foreskins. 34.) Most circumcised penises have scars. If you've ever seen a circumcised penis, you have probably seen circumcision scars and didn't know what they were. Curious? Click here for pictures (adult eyes please, extremely graphic). 35.) When erect, natural penises don't look very different from circumcised ones (adult eyes please) 36.) Babies have died following complications of circumcision. 37.) Babies have had the glans (head) of their penis accidentally amputated during circumcision. 38.) Female circumcision was legal in the United States until 1985. It was practiced in the USA as recently as the 1979 to prevent masturbation. 39.) Your health insurance may not cover the procedure. Medicaid does not cover it in 16 states, and many major insurance companies also do not reimburse for the surgery, since it is cosmetic. If your insurance doesn't cover it, it probably also does not cover any complications. 40.) Babies are strapped down on a circumstraint to have the procedure done. That is the most unnatural, terrifying position for a baby, who previously was all curled up and safe inside Mama's body. 41.) If you believe in evolution, why are men born with foreskins? If you believe in God, why did he give men foreskins? Did they screw up? 42.) If you are Christian, your religion actually *forbids* circumcision. Your son's body is a temple, and Jesus was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices - including the foreskin. See this link for more info. 43.) If you are Jewish, you should know that there is considerable debate about the religious necessity of circumcision. 44.) If you do believe that your religion requires the sacrifice of the foreskin, your son can choose to sacrifice his foreskin in the name of religion when he is old enough to make the decision himself. 45.) The foreskin is fused to the head of an infant's penis, just like your fingernail is fused to your finger. Have you ever pulled back your fingernail all the way? Owwwwwwwwwwwww. 46.) Circumcision makes penises smaller. Who wants a smaller penis? 47.) "My partner should make the decision, he has a penis/she looks at penises" is a dumb reason to abdicate responsibility for a decision. You are your baby's parent, penis or not, and you have a responsibility to protect your child from harm. Victims of FGM (aka female circumcision) are the most vocal supporters and perpetrators of the abuse. Call on your inner Mama or Papa-bear and stand up for your baby's rights. Make your partner watch a video with the sound on and convince YOU why they want this done to their precious child. 48.) You have seen an uncircumcised penis, and you probably didn't even notice. Take a look at this (safe for kids) picture! 49.) He'll be in good company. Check out this (in my opinion, mouth-watering) gallery of famous intact men! From Elvis, James Dean, Will Smith, Leonardo DiCaprio, Jude Law and sooo many others. 50.) It's his. I know, I said it already. but it's really the first and last reason - and perhaps the only one you really need. It's his body, and unless medically necessary, it should be his choice. You wouldn't give him a nose job without his permission, you wouldn't tattoo your infant. This is the same thing. If you really look at your motives, why would you want to take the risks? Leave the decision where it belongs - in your son's hands. If people's concern is really STD prevention, what's the harm in waiting until later? Why do it in the baby's first days? |
Anonymous
Hey dick, guess what, I DID get to make the decision. And I DO get to argue with whatever I want. That must make you SO MAD! I hope you can find enough "fuck" like words to use to show me how MAD you are that a li'l lady like me made the call about not mutilating her son's genitalia. Meantime, the more you post the more I think you're a total angry mutterer who is probably pretty intimidated by the actual real live women in his life. I bet if I met you on the street and we had this discussion you'd be intimidated by me. You seem the type. In fact, something about your posts are off. Any chance you're a woman? |
Anonymous
| Why would it matter if that poster is a woman? Are you saying women have no say in circumcision decisions? |
Anonymous
No reason to project here, I'm not anti-vax. Better stick with the subject at hand. I thought I was clear plenty in my post that I'm talking about infant circ. If people's concern is really STD prevention, what's the harm in waiting until later? Why do it in the baby's first days? You have at least a decade before he becomes sexually active, plenty of time to see if these preliminary STD studies are confirmed or not. Speaking of, you posted just below the dispute of the STD study - did you not have a chance to read it, or just chose to ignore it? |
Anonymous
| Considering for males it prevents stds, hiv, utis and cancer then you should be able to get one by stating the above rather than religious reasoning. |
Anonymous
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When I lived in the UK I couldn't get a doctor to circ my son. I had to find a Mohel or just not do it. We weren't planning on circ'ing so it really didn't matter to us anyway but the other Amercians I knew thought it was such a pain in the ass.
This is TMI but part of the reason DH and I chose against it was because DH has way too much scar tissue. |