WashPost Flame-Bait on Loudoun County Tardy Policy

[Anonymous]

How about the kids who act up and waste classroom time, much more than coming in late. Should we have their parents arrested for permissive parenting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So everyone agrees that they should be in trouble, but do you all realize that they were charged with three counts of contributing to the delinquency to a minor -- as in their own kids? So when you all annoy your fellow parents, maybe those of you who don't volunteer much and expect all of us to carry your load, I guess it's okay for you to be arrested and charged with a crime against your own children?

Do you know what the word 'delinquency' means?

1. Juvenile delinquency.
2. Failure to do what law or duty requires.
3. An offense or a misdemeanor; a misdeed.
4. A debt or other financial obligation on which payment is overdue.

Contributing to the delinquency of a minor is the appropriate charge. You also seem to be saying that it would be okay to arrest and charge those who don't volunteer 'much'. That would mean it's compulsory, not 'volunteering'. You're welcome to volunteer but you should have no expectations of others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about the kids who act up and waste classroom time, much more than coming in late. Should we have their parents arrested for permissive parenting?

You must be the 'volunteer' poster.

[Anonymous]

So what would you think if, hypothetically, parents decided to take their K and 2nd grade students out of public school for 5 days in order to travel across country and attend a family celebration (say, Grandma's 90th birthday and a big family reunion?)

The principal was asked and did not agree that this would be an excused absence, but the parents went ahead anyhow and pulled their children out for the week.

Should the state charge the parents in such a case with contributing to the delinquency of a minor? Because they didn't do what the law said?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So what would you think if, hypothetically, parents decided to take their K and 2nd grade students out of public school for 5 days in order to travel across country and attend a family celebration (say, Grandma's 90th birthday and a big family reunion?)

The principal was asked and did not agree that this would be an excused absence, but the parents went ahead anyhow and pulled their children out for the week.

Should the state charge the parents in such a case with contributing to the delinquency of a minor? Because they didn't do what the law said?

If they did it once a month? Yes. One time? No.

The difference in degree matters - a lot. This isn't some draconian response to three tardies. These people are late all the freakin' time. They've been spoken to time and time again. It's not inability to be on time - they live a very short distance from the school. At this point, it's that the parents REFUSE to make sure their kids are on time. I do think this is the appropriate step for the school to take.

Other than punishing the kids, I'm curious as to what you think the school should do. "OK, be on time from now on, and we really, really mean it!" That apparently hasn't worked in the past. Are you familiar with Einstein's definition of insanity?

[Anonymous]

PP -- I am the poster you are responding to. Just for the record, I am an elementary school teacher and I can definitely see how kids coming late every single day can be a pain in the a--, and can even (perhaps) impeded the ability of other children to learn... although quite honestly, I think very few classrooms are that finely tuned where a child entering 2 or 4 minutes late EVERY DAY would really, truly hinder much of anything. I'm just being honest here.

But I'm also a mom, and I know how hard it can be for parents who have had children in their care all their lives, or who have hired private caretakers for their children (private preschools, daycares, babysitters, nannies) to suddenly realize that by turning your children over to the public school for education, you are essentially giving the state a HUGE amount of control over what happens to your child. Even if you don't feel it is in their best interest to arrive at school on time, or to go to school that particular day, it doesn't matter -- because the state can take you to court, fine you, even throw you in jail for what YOU decide.

If it were a private school, they'd just fine you, or kick your kid out. Public schools can't do that, so in extreme situations they have to take it to the courts.

I'm not saying that the school wasn't totally provoked into doing this, but I can still see how parents would be pissed about the principle involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But I'm also a mom, and I know how hard it can be for parents who have had children in their care all their lives, or who have hired private caretakers for their children (private preschools, daycares, babysitters, nannies) to suddenly realize that by turning your children over to the public school for education, you are essentially giving the state a HUGE amount of control over what happens to your child. Even if you don't feel it is in their best interest to arrive at school on time, or to go to school that particular day, it doesn't matter -- because the state can take you to court, fine you, even throw you in jail for what YOU decide.

The parents always have the option of homeschooling.

I'm a little astounded by how much people take public education for granted. It's an amazing thing - right up there with the right to vote. I was a Peace Corps Volunteer and had my eyes opened to how much school is valued when it's not available to everyone. The Denicore's should be ashamed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP -- I am the poster you are responding to. Just for the record, I am an elementary school teacher and I can definitely see how kids coming late every single day can be a pain in the a--, and can even (perhaps) impeded the ability of other children to learn... although quite honestly, I think very few classrooms are that finely tuned where a child entering 2 or 4 minutes late EVERY DAY would really, truly hinder much of anything. I'm just being honest here.

But what if all the kids' parents decided that the school's start time was a sort of serving suggestion? If you had kids drifting in every day, up to ten minutes late, would that be a problem.

The fact that the parents still can't get their kids there on time even when they get up 15 minutes earlier tells me that this is not about a packed morning schedule. It's about misplaced sense of entitlement, and the biggest favor the school can do for the kids is to tell them No.

[Anonymous]

As a parent of one of the other children in the class (I'm not, but as a for instance) I'd be pissed that my child's day was interrupted 1 in 3 for these kids. Obviously the rest of the class (and teachers) can manage to make it there on time. So can they. No sympathy. The needs of the many being outweighed by the needs of the few? No. Come to school or don't but if you show up, do it on time and don't disrupt the place, thanks. It isn't all about you.

[Anonymous]

For the record, I believe that with this fact pattern it's entirely appropriate for the Denicores to be charged with a crime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP -- I am the poster you are responding to. Just for the record, I am an elementary school teacher and I can definitely see how kids coming late every single day can be a pain in the a--, and can even (perhaps) impeded the ability of other children to learn... although quite honestly, I think very few classrooms are that finely tuned where a child entering 2 or 4 minutes late EVERY DAY would really, truly hinder much of anything. I'm just being honest here.

But what if all the kids' parents decided that the school's start time was a sort of serving suggestion? If you had kids drifting in every day, up to ten minutes late, would that be a problem.

The fact that the parents still can't get their kids there on time even when they get up 15 minutes earlier tells me that this is not about a packed morning schedule. It's about misplaced sense of entitlement, and the biggest favor the school can do for the kids is to tell them No.

The fact is very few parents drop their kids off late, in fact the bigger problem in schools I work at is parents dropping their kids off too early. The majority of parents both work and they are counting the schools for child care. So they DO manage to get their kids to school on time, because they have to get to work on time.

[Anonymous]

The fact is very few parents drop their kids off late, in fact the bigger problem in schools I work at is parents dropping their kids off too early. The majority of parents both work and they are counting the schools for child care. So they DO manage to get their kids to school on time, because they have to get to work on time.

You're missing the point. Parents who drop off their kids early are, at most, an inconvenience. They aren't disruptive to classroom learning. Parents who drop off their kids late interrupt learning. It doesn't matter that there are fewer late parents and it is not at all "the bigger problem" if you have ever been a teacher.

[Anonymous]

Well, it's gotten interesting since the last post.

"Lori Melcher, Loudoun County Public School’s attendance officer, told the court that the school had reached out numerous times to the Denicores for them to meet with school officials to address the tardy problems with their children, but they declined. Melcher said Mark Denicore told her that she was “misrepresenting the law” and that she “needed to get her act together” and wouldn’t meet with her.

Melcher said that between the 2010 and 2012 school years Sophie had been late a total of 655 minutes, Daisy was late 802 minutes and Tucker was late 297 minutes.

Melcher also mentioned that Amy Denicore was aware of a Jan. 17 meeting but refused to get out of her car when she dropped off her children.

“Amy Denicore wouldn’t meet with officials until LCPS sought council because they felt that “tardies are no big deal” and “it’s against the law for [Melcher] to question her childrens’ tardies,” Melcher said."

"This would not be an issue for the courts if they had heeded any of the two sets of certified letters LCPS sent to their home—one for each child Nov. 18 and again Jan. 13 (per evidence entered into trial thus far); if they had responded to either of the two telephone calls the LCPS attendance officer made to their home with something other than a voice mail message from the sorry excuse of a mother that stated tardies are no big deal and it’s against the law for LCPS to call her about her children’s attendance or from the rocket scientist attorney/father(?) who stated he refused to meet with LCPS to discuss the issue (again, from evidence already introduced at trial) or if the parents had bothered to show-up for the January 17 meeting they were advised of by certified letter (again, from evidence already introduced at trial). The idea that there was no opportunity for this to be worked-out in a meeting and that LCPS went straight to court with these folks is utter and complete fiction. Their demeaning attitudes toward public servants doing their job, their utter contempt for a law that they may not like or agree with (don’t we all have a few of those?) but that is nonetheless the law and their utter disregard for their children’s schoolmates and their own neighbors is reprehensible."

"He asked Melcher to confirm that when his children were late, it was usually by just a few minutes.

“They have been late sometimes under one minute and sometimes a lot more,” Melcher responded.

She went on to say that the oldest daughter has been late a total of 655 minutes this school year, the middle daughter has been late a total of 802 minutes and the youngest son a total of 297 minutes.

Mark Denicore pointed out each of the children was counted tardy at least three times for arriving at school at 7:50 a.m.—the same time the school day begins.

“That means they were signing in at that time at the front desk, but they hadn’t made it to class yet,” Melcher responded.

Judge James Robeson interjected to ask Melcher whether the Denicores’ attendance has improved since the charges were filed against the family.

The last unexcused tardy was Jan. 27, Melcher responded. “It’s looking extremely well,” she added."

"The Commonwealth’s Attorney has asked the judge to amend the allegations against the Denicores to include not just tardies from this school year, but also more than 30 tardies per child from the second semester of the 2010-11 school year — and absences from both years (about 13 for each child, including a five-day family vacation last October). "

FIVE DAY VACATION in OCTOBER? C'mon! That's an unexcused absence and they know it. It wasn't that grandma had died.

[Anonymous]

I agree. It is completely ridiculous and totally out of line for parents in VA to take their children out of school for 5 days in the middle of October.

There ought to be a law against it.

I think VA should have a law -- parents whose children are late more than 3 times per year, or absent more than 2 days per year without a doctor's note, should pay a $5,000 fine or go to jail for 10 days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The fact is very few parents drop their kids off late, in fact the bigger problem in schools I work at is parents dropping their kids off too early. The majority of parents both work and they are counting the schools for child care. So they DO manage to get their kids to school on time, because they have to get to work on time.

You're missing the point. Parents who drop off their kids early are, at most, an inconvenience. They aren't disruptive to classroom learning. Parents who drop off their kids late interrupt learning. It doesn't matter that there are fewer late parents and it is not at all "the bigger problem" if you have ever been a teacher.

You are missing the point! Yes, I am a teacher and have taught for 12 years.

Parents who drop off their kids early are the far bigger problem, at least where I work. The children are not supervised. This is a safety issue. This is a BIG safety issue, actually. If the children get hurt or in a fight, it will impact learning.

Parents drpoping their children off late 2 minutes each day is (a) not a safety issue and (b) annoying, but actually doesn't impeded learning much at all. The first 5 minutes are just listening to the morning announcements and pledge. The audio quality of these announcements is questionable at best. So no, not a big impact on student learning.

Annoying, pain in the ass, a sign of contempt for school? OK, I'll buy that. Disruptive to other children's learning? I highly doubt that.

The schools are just having a pissing contest with the parents to prove whose the boss. I get that.