Intellectual peers

[Anonymous]

Learning as a multi-year living experience is exactly why elite schools are very different than an honors college, even for a very motivated student. The environment isn’t replicated in all areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love when people throw out they work with “dumb” Ivy grads. They have the best financial aid, many recipients have been leading their families since childhood in a myriad of ways. Sure, no “street smarts”…given current acceptance rates, no one is getting in that isn’t extremely smart and remarkable in some way.

Or they just have a “compelling story”, which up until very recently, was what got most of them into an Ivy. Equally smart but less DEI didn’t get in and went to state schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many people have book sense but no common sense. I plan to send my kid to a school that has people from all walks of life - one that mimics how the real-world workplace is.

JMU does not mimic "all walks of life" any better than an ivy, in fact ivies have more racial diversity, more gender parity, and more pell grant by %.
College is an education first and foremost, not a life skills course (though basic laundry and cooking and working as a team develop at all). It is place to be intellectually stimulated and pushed to grow and learn, which can happen at either school but for the MOST intellectual top 1% type students itll happen better at the ivy than JMU. For other students JMU is the ideal place to grow academically. Many parents are able to see our kids are different, academically and personality, and we might steer one to an ivy and another to JMU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I generally say that the education a student gets depends much more on the effort exerted than the school, but that's within a given range: Princeton may be a better school than Vanderbilt, but the education available at the two are quite similar. On the other hand, UPitt is a fine school, but a very smart, intellectually driven student will find it harder to learn as much there as at Princeton.

Define "learn". Learning is individual and subjective. College is a multi-year living experience that goes beyond academics. You have no real way to measure this. It's an article of faith for you.

True. I should have specified academic learning. Quantum physics. Economic theory. Literary and historical analysis. Etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do people on this forum really think their snowflakes can’t be intellectually stimulated at “non-selective” schools??

First of all - there will be plenty of smart kids basically anywhere and people can find their tribe. Second of all - what about being able to function in the real world, in the workplace where people have all different strengths and skills. Sometimes an average student can be brilliant socially or politically or just “get” geospatial thinking. It would be a sad world if only good test takers prevailed across the board.

I hope my kid finds the school that meets their needs academically, socially and culturally and I don’t need artificial selectivity metrics to tell me what that is.

This is so important. I went to a highly selective school, think along the lines of MIT, a very long time ago and was miserable. I can only admit this here but it was filled with grinder nerds that I didn’t fit in with. For us, we are definitely trying to find a good fit socially as well as academically for our kids.

[Anonymous]

I've only got my own experience to draw on, but mine was this: I had plenty of experience working with people of varying intelligence before I got to college. I didn't have any experience being surrounded by really bright people. The workplace is a lot more like high school for sure, but four years around people who were brilliant was a fantastic experience too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Learning as a multi-year living experience is exactly why elite schools are very different than an honors college, even for a very motivated student. The environment isn’t replicated in all areas.

Article of faith. How would you know?

Much of this stems from the assumption that IQ and SATs are everything. Followed by wealth. And that the happiest/best/most examined life depends on maximizing all three of these. Observation tells me that it only works some of the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My spouse and I went to TT schools. Because the vast majority of others there were also top students, our lifelong friends who we both made in college are smart, curious, highly motivated. Most have done very well in their chosen careers. They are people for whom education is a top priority.

You will find plenty of people like this at a lower tier school. But they are not as common.

I am sure I will now get a flurry of responses telling me I am a pedigree snob. And perhaps I am. I have plenty of close friends who didn't go to these schools. I remain very close to childhood friends, all of whom went to good but not great state schools.

For me, college was a truly formative four years. I hope it is the same for my children.

you are simply wrong that there are not many smart, talented, motivated, interesting people at other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people on this forum really think their snowflakes can’t be intellectually stimulated at “non-selective” schools??

First of all - there will be plenty of smart kids basically anywhere and people can find their tribe. Second of all - what about being able to function in the real world, in the workplace where people have all different strengths and skills. Sometimes an average student can be brilliant socially or politically or just “get” geospatial thinking. It would be a sad world if only good test takers prevailed across the board.

I hope my kid finds the school that meets their needs academically, socially and culturally and I don’t need artificial selectivity metrics to tell me what that is.

For some, they were not challenged much by their high school, even great privates with median SAT of 1400 do not challenge the very top kids as much as a college that has a median SAT (pre-TO) of 1500. Super-bright always >99%ile their whole lives type kids often need a larger cohort of similar peers to reach their full potential. T15/ivy types/williams/et al have challenging coursework above and beyond what T75 type schools can offer because they have a large cohort of students who can move at a faster pace rather than less than 5% who can. Ask professors who have worked at various levels of college: they will tell you there are significant differences. We have asked our family:
One studied through phD at a T10, then taught post doc at T20, saw no significant difference. Then taught at various T60-100 places and it was stark: lack of motivation, even the smart kids were bored, they had to have a certain % pass so they watered it down. The other ran an engineering lab as a professor at a T50 public then moved it all to an HYPSM. They have the same descriptions: had to slow the pace at the lesser school, were surprised at the high volume of intensely academic students at the top place they moved to.
Both professors have noted the pressure among undergrads is much higher at the top, warning us to consider whether ours would be ok emotionally not being the top kid in almost everything as they had been for all of their schooling. Intellectual stimulation from the brightest peers comes with increased motivation and growth, but also increased pressure. You have to take the good with the bad if you choose an ivy/elite.

I wouldn’t put Williams at this level. A lot of mediocre athletes and some DEI kids are not the type of intellectual that needs MIT, CMU, etc. Williams is no different academically than Amherst, Swarthmore, or Pomona.

SLAC hater emerges. Your kid will get a better education at Williams than at any T10 for subjects outside of Engineering and CS. Actually, your kid will get a better undergraduate education at any of the 8 SLACs who have an median SAT score of 1500 or higher than at any of the T10, their model is better and the cohort quality is just as strong.

This just isn’t true.

Sorry but it is. The consistent over performance of SLACs along post secondary performance vectors for grad school, med school, law school, etc. when adjusted for size cannot be ignored though I am sure that you would like to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My spouse and I went to TT schools. Because the vast majority of others there were also top students, our lifelong friends who we both made in college are smart, curious, highly motivated. Most have done very well in their chosen careers. They are people for whom education is a top priority.

You will find plenty of people like this at a lower tier school. But they are not as common.

I am sure I will now get a flurry of responses telling me I am a pedigree snob. And perhaps I am. I have plenty of close friends who didn't go to these schools. I remain very close to childhood friends, all of whom went to good but not great state schools.

For me, college was a truly formative four years. I hope it is the same for my children.

you are simply wrong that there are not many smart, talented, motivated, interesting people at other schools.

The intellectual profile is basically identical at pretty much any T25 university or T15 SLAC. None are really any better than any of the others.

[Anonymous]

I live next to a “public Ivy.” The school is wonderful, but extremely different than the mid-size private T10 my kid attends. One is not better than another, but to say they are equivalent in intellectual profile and vibe is incorrect. They “feel” very different and most students will have a strong preference as to which they prefer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My spouse and I went to TT schools. Because the vast majority of others there were also top students, our lifelong friends who we both made in college are smart, curious, highly motivated. Most have done very well in their chosen careers. They are people for whom education is a top priority.

You will find plenty of people like this at a lower tier school. But they are not as common.

I am sure I will now get a flurry of responses telling me I am a pedigree snob. And perhaps I am. I have plenty of close friends who didn't go to these schools. I remain very close to childhood friends, all of whom went to good but not great state schools.

For me, college was a truly formative four years. I hope it is the same for my children.

you are simply wrong that there are not many smart, talented, motivated, interesting people at other schools.

The intellectual profile is basically identical at pretty much any T25 university or T15 SLAC. None are really any better than any of the others.

No

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My spouse and I went to TT schools. Because the vast majority of others there were also top students, our lifelong friends who we both made in college are smart, curious, highly motivated. Most have done very well in their chosen careers. They are people for whom education is a top priority.

You will find plenty of people like this at a lower tier school. But they are not as common.

I am sure I will now get a flurry of responses telling me I am a pedigree snob. And perhaps I am. I have plenty of close friends who didn't go to these schools. I remain very close to childhood friends, all of whom went to good but not great state schools.

For me, college was a truly formative four years. I hope it is the same for my children.

Your are spot on. I feel the same way about low or mid tier performers in all walks of life. Who wants to be around weak people at the gym? It's sad and depressing watching their inability to lift heavy weights and they get in your way removing your heavy weights. Youth sports? Please leave your unathletic kids at home, the athletic kids don't want them on their teams. No iron is going to sharpen that iron. Weird social problems with your kid? Please separate them so their weirdness doesn't bother other kids in school. Bad driver? Take the bus or public transportation. Inability to make enough money to pay for college without grants, merit or other aid? Get a better job and make more money. I can go on but you get my point.

[Anonymous]

Can't afford organic groceries? Just stop being poor and shop at Whole Foods like the rest of us. Your processed food choices are bringing down the vibe at the farmer's market.

Bad at small talk? Please stay home from parties - your awkward silences are making everyone else uncomfortable. We don't need your social anxiety contaminating our networking events.

Don't have a six-figure emergency fund? Maybe don't have financial emergencies then. Your money problems are really bumming out those of us who planned ahead.

Can't run a 6-minute mile? Stop clogging up the jogging paths with your pathetic pace. The real runners shouldn't have to dodge around your huffing and puffing.

Struggling with mental health? Have you tried just being happier? Your depression is really bringing down the energy at brunch.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My spouse and I went to TT schools. Because the vast majority of others there were also top students, our lifelong friends who we both made in college are smart, curious, highly motivated. Most have done very well in their chosen careers. They are people for whom education is a top priority.

You will find plenty of people like this at a lower tier school. But they are not as common.

I am sure I will now get a flurry of responses telling me I am a pedigree snob. And perhaps I am. I have plenty of close friends who didn't go to these schools. I remain very close to childhood friends, all of whom went to good but not great state schools.

For me, college was a truly formative four years. I hope it is the same for my children.

Your are spot on. I feel the same way about low or mid tier performers in all walks of life. Who wants to be around weak people at the gym? It's sad and depressing watching their inability to lift heavy weights and they get in your way removing your heavy weights. Youth sports? Please leave your unathletic kids at home, the athletic kids don't want them on their teams. No iron is going to sharpen that iron. Weird social problems with your kid? Please separate them so their weirdness doesn't bother other kids in school. Bad driver? Take the bus or public transportation. Inability to make enough money to pay for college without grants, merit or other aid? Get a better job and make more money. I can go on but you get my point.

[Anonymous]

I don’t care if the rest of the student body is super smart, I care if they are motivated and enjoy having discussions on various levels. My teens go to a lower performing public school and get frustrated when there are kids who just don’t care, don’t participate, lag during group projects. How do we find a place for our kids that have people who care about learning?