Bed without dinner

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get it. You each spoke to her calmly, but issued the ultimatum, “eat now or not at all”? That doesn’t sound like deescalation. Next time, tell her to take the time that she needs to calm down and that there will be a plate waiting for her when she’s ready. Just fix her a plate and stick it in the fridge. You can still go ahead and clean up the kitchen. Kids need food; don’t withhold it as a punishment.

No. She was upset and in her room. We said it’s time for dinner. She said she wasn’t eating. Over the course of 30 minutes, each of us went to her room to talk to her, and said we knew she was upset but this is time for dinner if she wants to eat. She came to the table once and we said the same thing - this is dinner if you want to eat. It wasn’t an ultimatum or a punishment - it was dinner time.

I offered her bread and butter when she finally wanted to eat after last chance and she refused that because she wanted “dinner.”

For some background, she has a very long history of waiting until after last chance to say she wanted to do something. We gave in a lot when she was younger but for the past several years we’ve been very firm about last chance. So there’s definitely a bit of her wanting to do things exactly when she wants to do them. It wasn’t that she calmed down and then wanted to eat - more like she waited out the clock and then wanted to eat.

I’m trying to think through how it would have worked to say “you can eat whenever you’re ready” instead of “you can eat when you’re ready within this time period.” Would you let her eat whenever? Even at bedtime? I feel like our kids would exploit that.

You did nothing wrong, and posters criticizing you for not giving her food when she asked are not understanding the bigger picture here.

Her behavior might be concerning. A friend of mine has a very oppositional child (plus others who are not), and as a tween she was diagnosed with ADHD. She is also suspected to something else, but no one is quite sure what: she can be very rigid and apt to interpret everything as an offense, rewrite history, fight back at every turn, fly into rages and then demand stuff. Her family is exhausted by her demands and tendency to turn the slightest interaction into a fight. At the same time, when in a good mood, she can be very social and absolutely charming. It's hard to live with someone like this.

There really isn't a win-win solution, OP. At best, it's always win-lose, and sometimes, if you don't play your cards perfectly (and you're only human and sometimes make mistakes), it's lose-lose.

You might want to get her a neuropsychological assessment at a psychologist's.

FFS You are jumping the gun here.

—parent of defiant ADHD kid

[Anonymous]

No, you don't withhold food. You don’t take away whatever the normal dinner is and replace it with cereal or a sandwich as punishment. That’s unhealthy on so many levels.

You also spent an hour arguing. That’s wild. Why would you do that? The things you said were not de-escalating, they were provocative and all but guaranteed to make her dig her heels in. You should have said ok and left a plate for her.

You also seem to be setting up failure with dinner right before bedtime. Can you adjust that? You’re creating very unhealthy dynamics generally, as well as specifically about food. Have you considered some parent coaching?

You seem to be aiming for external motivation, fear based compliance, rather than internal motivation. Natural consequences and avoidance of power struggles help children develop internal compasses and a healthy desire to make good choices. External motivation means that kids will do what they can get away with. You have to remember that you’re raising adults.

So what is a natural consequence of not coming to dinner? What if you aren’t hungry? Can you come to dinner and not eat? It’s not clear what the behavior issue was beyond not wanting dinner.

[Anonymous]

I disagree with most of the other posters. She very clearly made a conscious decision not to eat. She’s 9, which is plenty old enough to understand the choice she was making.

It sounds like me that she was upset about her argument with her brother and decided to assert her power. She had both parents come to her for one on time, trying to convince her to eat. Then like a petulant child who makes a point of telling you they’re not talking to you, she came to the table but refused to eat. Then when you gave her the option, AGAIN, to eat, she not only refused, but turned her refusal into a drama by brushing her teeth in front of you. Only after you had stopped offering chances to eat and were moving on with the evening (drama over), did she decide she wanted to eat. This isn’t really about food. This is about her manipulating the situation, taking control, and making sure that both parents and presumably the brother had their dinner disrupted, that she was the center of attention, and that you end up feeling guilty, while she ends up getting the punishment lifted, essentially having her cake and eating her dinner, too.

While I wouldn’t make it a habit to send her to bed without supper, one night without dinner isn’t going to harm a 9 year old - you can give her a big breakfast in the morning. Moreover, it’s not as though you were refusing to feed her as a punishment. You are simply honoring the choice she made. If she complains, you can suggest that in the future she considers the consequences of her decisions more carefully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with most of the other posters. She very clearly made a conscious decision not to eat. She’s 9, which is plenty old enough to understand the choice she was making.

It sounds like me that she was upset about her argument with her brother and decided to assert her power. She had both parents come to her for one on time, trying to convince her to eat. Then like a petulant child who makes a point of telling you they’re not talking to you, she came to the table but refused to eat. Then when you gave her the option, AGAIN, to eat, she not only refused, but turned her refusal into a drama by brushing her teeth in front of you. Only after you had stopped offering chances to eat and were moving on with the evening (drama over), did she decide she wanted to eat. This isn’t really about food. This is about her manipulating the situation, taking control, and making sure that both parents and presumably the brother had their dinner disrupted, that she was the center of attention, and that you end up feeling guilty, while she ends up getting the punishment lifted, essentially having her cake and eating her dinner, too.

While I wouldn’t make it a habit to send her to bed without supper, one night without dinner isn’t going to harm a 9 year old - you can give her a big breakfast in the morning. Moreover, it’s not as though you were refusing to feed her as a punishment. You are simply honoring the choice she made. If she complains, you can suggest that in the future she considers the consequences of her decisions more carefully.

You make it sound like the child is holding a gun to their heads. They could have chosen to not ramp it all up with an hour of fighting, and just calmly told DD that her plate would be in the fridge. Punishment and obsession with depriving kids of any agency doesn’t make for healthy kids and positive relationships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with most of the other posters. She very clearly made a conscious decision not to eat. She’s 9, which is plenty old enough to understand the choice she was making.

It sounds like me that she was upset about her argument with her brother and decided to assert her power. She had both parents come to her for one on time, trying to convince her to eat. Then like a petulant child who makes a point of telling you they’re not talking to you, she came to the table but refused to eat. Then when you gave her the option, AGAIN, to eat, she not only refused, but turned her refusal into a drama by brushing her teeth in front of you. Only after you had stopped offering chances to eat and were moving on with the evening (drama over), did she decide she wanted to eat. This isn’t really about food. This is about her manipulating the situation, taking control, and making sure that both parents and presumably the brother had their dinner disrupted, that she was the center of attention, and that you end up feeling guilty, while she ends up getting the punishment lifted, essentially having her cake and eating her dinner, too.

While I wouldn’t make it a habit to send her to bed without supper, one night without dinner isn’t going to harm a 9 year old - you can give her a big breakfast in the morning. Moreover, it’s not as though you were refusing to feed her as a punishment. You are simply honoring the choice she made. If she complains, you can suggest that in the future she considers the consequences of her decisions more carefully.

You make it sound like the child is holding a gun to their heads. They could have chosen to not ramp it all up with an hour of fighting, and just calmly told DD that her plate would be in the fridge. Punishment and obsession with depriving kids of any agency doesn’t make for healthy kids and positive relationships.

Pp you responded to. The child was the one who kept ramping it up. She had plenty of agency, which she made of point of utilizing. They presented the child with a chance to eat dinner and she refused. Then each parent, individually offered her the chance to eat dinner, and she refused both times. Then she came to the table and refused dinner again. Then they offered, again, to feed her and she brushed her teeth to express how definite she was in her refusal. If anything undermined her agency, it was trying to convince her to change her mind after she’d so clearly expressed her wishes, time and again.

Yes, they COULD have told they were putting the plate in the fridge. But what happens if she decides she wants it at bedtime (which I think is what happened), or at 2 in the morning? What happens if she decides she only wants chocolate ice cream for dinner? What happens if she decides at 2am that she only wants chocolate ice cream for dinner, and you need to go buy her some because there’s none in the house? At what point is it okay for a parent to set limits on a child’s options without it being considered depriving them of any agency?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with most of the other posters. She very clearly made a conscious decision not to eat. She’s 9, which is plenty old enough to understand the choice she was making.

It sounds like me that she was upset about her argument with her brother and decided to assert her power. She had both parents come to her for one on time, trying to convince her to eat. Then like a petulant child who makes a point of telling you they’re not talking to you, she came to the table but refused to eat. Then when you gave her the option, AGAIN, to eat, she not only refused, but turned her refusal into a drama by brushing her teeth in front of you. Only after you had stopped offering chances to eat and were moving on with the evening (drama over), did she decide she wanted to eat. This isn’t really about food. This is about her manipulating the situation, taking control, and making sure that both parents and presumably the brother had their dinner disrupted, that she was the center of attention, and that you end up feeling guilty, while she ends up getting the punishment lifted, essentially having her cake and eating her dinner, too.

While I wouldn’t make it a habit to send her to bed without supper, one night without dinner isn’t going to harm a 9 year old - you can give her a big breakfast in the morning. Moreover, it’s not as though you were refusing to feed her as a punishment. You are simply honoring the choice she made. If she complains, you can suggest that in the future she considers the consequences of her decisions more carefully.

You make it sound like the child is holding a gun to their heads. They could have chosen to not ramp it all up with an hour of fighting, and just calmly told DD that her plate would be in the fridge. Punishment and obsession with depriving kids of any agency doesn’t make for healthy kids and positive relationships.

Pp you responded to. The child was the one who kept ramping it up. She had plenty of agency, which she made of point of utilizing. They presented the child with a chance to eat dinner and she refused. Then each parent, individually offered her the chance to eat dinner, and she refused both times. Then she came to the table and refused dinner again. Then they offered, again, to feed her and she brushed her teeth to express how definite she was in her refusal. If anything undermined her agency, it was trying to convince her to change her mind after she’d so clearly expressed her wishes, time and again.

Yes, they COULD have told they were putting the plate in the fridge. But what happens if she decides she wants it at bedtime (which I think is what happened), or at 2 in the morning? What happens if she decides she only wants chocolate ice cream for dinner? What happens if she decides at 2am that she only wants chocolate ice cream for dinner, and you need to go buy her some because there’s none in the house? At what point is it okay for a parent to set limits on a child’s options without it being considered depriving them of any agency?

Holy heck - she's *9*. You're blaming this on the kid? PP you sound like you have your own issues. This isn't some slippery slope where the next thing the parents are doing is only buying chocolate cake for their kid to eat at midnight. She was upset. She needed time to calm down. Food could be left in the fridge for when she calmed down. Except the parents escalated at every point (eat now, or else). If the parents had said, come out when you're ready, and you can feed yourself - she likely would have. Don't make this harder than it needs to be.

Also, the OP needs to address the dynamic between their kids - OP mentioned an argument that BOTH kids were involved in, but the sanctions seemed to be only addressed to one kid because that kid didn't respond in a way the parents liked. Is this a recurring issue?

[Anonymous]

Have you all read OP’s responses? She realizes it wasn’t ideal parenting, she’s listening to our suggestions, please be open to helping her instead of tearing her down. NONE of us are perfect parents.

And you all act like 9 year olds don’t know how to manipulate and push boundaries. Thats what the 9 year old was doing here—she was pushing boundaries and op cited a history of giving in and it not going well. It sounds like op realizes that witholding the food isn’t the best way next time. I’m one of the few who suggested making the plate. My kids would have loved a PBJ or bread and butter over some of the balanced dinners, so this alternative would probably create more conflict in my house so they could get a sweet PBJ before bed 😆 but once op finds her rhythm and what works, I trust they’ll be better off.

[Anonymous]

My 5 year old had a huge meltdown at 5:30 today and passed out in her own bed in pjs at 6 (her choice to change) Didn't wake up for dinner and slept through. Woke up at 6:30 hungry. Going to bed without dinner once in a while doesn't damage them. All the drama and convincing backfires. I also have a 9 year old. I much prefer she come and eat dinner with us. But if she doesn't, fine, kitchen closes at 7:30 and we put everything away. People hungry after that can have a banana or yogurt they get themselves. I'm not engaging in a standoff/power struggle. And everyone can have a bad day where they don't want to talk:sit with people. At 9, kids usually know enough and can have agency and make some of those choices. We have had her not come eat dinner once that I remember and she was upset about something and needed time to herself.

[Anonymous]

I think you’re fine, op. She’s pushing the limits. Your limits were reasonable. You offered her something, she wasn’t going to starve.

If anything, I’d have less conversation about it. If she doesn’t want to eat with the family, that’s fine, but once the meal is over she can have bread and butter and that’s it.

Setting’s boundaries now and sticking to them is important. It only gets harder later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, you don't withhold food. You don’t take away whatever the normal dinner is and replace it with cereal or a sandwich as punishment. That’s unhealthy on so many levels.

You also spent an hour arguing. That’s wild. Why would you do that? The things you said were not de-escalating, they were provocative and all but guaranteed to make her dig her heels in. You should have said ok and left a plate for her.

You also seem to be setting up failure with dinner right before bedtime. Can you adjust that? You’re creating very unhealthy dynamics generally, as well as specifically about food. Have you considered some parent coaching?

You seem to be aiming for external motivation, fear based compliance, rather than internal motivation. Natural consequences and avoidance of power struggles help children develop internal compasses and a healthy desire to make good choices. External motivation means that kids will do what they can get away with. You have to remember that you’re raising adults.

So what is a natural consequence of not coming to dinner? What if you aren’t hungry? Can you come to dinner and not eat? It’s not clear what the behavior issue was beyond not wanting dinner.

I agree with this, power struggles with tired/upset kids rarely work out. I think they need to adjust their parenting infrastructure and outlooks to avoid this. As you pointed out spending a large portion of the hour trying to get her to come to dinner set the child up to be defiant. Just let her cool off entirely, the cajoling and ultimatums just made it worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get it. You each spoke to her calmly, but issued the ultimatum, “eat now or not at all”? That doesn’t sound like deescalation. Next time, tell her to take the time that she needs to calm down and that there will be a plate waiting for her when she’s ready. Just fix her a plate and stick it in the fridge. You can still go ahead and clean up the kitchen. Kids need food; don’t withhold it as a punishment.

No. She was upset and in her room. We said it’s time for dinner. She said she wasn’t eating. Over the course of 30 minutes, each of us went to her room to talk to her, and said we knew she was upset but this is time for dinner if she wants to eat. She came to the table once and we said the same thing - this is dinner if you want to eat. It wasn’t an ultimatum or a punishment - it was dinner time.

I offered her bread and butter when she finally wanted to eat after last chance and she refused that because she wanted “dinner.”

For some background, she has a very long history of waiting until after last chance to say she wanted to do something. We gave in a lot when she was younger but for the past several years we’ve been very firm about last chance. So there’s definitely a bit of her wanting to do things exactly when she wants to do them. It wasn’t that she calmed down and then wanted to eat - more like she waited out the clock and then wanted to eat.

I’m trying to think through how it would have worked to say “you can eat whenever you’re ready” instead of “you can eat when you’re ready within this time period.” Would you let her eat whenever? Even at bedtime? I feel like our kids would exploit that.

I think this behavior from you and your dh is abusive.

It is. CPS would think so too. Withholding food in this manner would be grounds for removal of the child from the home. Someone should call them on OP. She better hope the child doesn’t tell a mandatory reporter what happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get it. You each spoke to her calmly, but issued the ultimatum, “eat now or not at all”? That doesn’t sound like deescalation. Next time, tell her to take the time that she needs to calm down and that there will be a plate waiting for her when she’s ready. Just fix her a plate and stick it in the fridge. You can still go ahead and clean up the kitchen. Kids need food; don’t withhold it as a punishment.

No. She was upset and in her room. We said it’s time for dinner. She said she wasn’t eating. Over the course of 30 minutes, each of us went to her room to talk to her, and said we knew she was upset but this is time for dinner if she wants to eat. She came to the table once and we said the same thing - this is dinner if you want to eat. It wasn’t an ultimatum or a punishment - it was dinner time.

I offered her bread and butter when she finally wanted to eat after last chance and she refused that because she wanted “dinner.”

For some background, she has a very long history of waiting until after last chance to say she wanted to do something. We gave in a lot when she was younger but for the past several years we’ve been very firm about last chance. So there’s definitely a bit of her wanting to do things exactly when she wants to do them. It wasn’t that she calmed down and then wanted to eat - more like she waited out the clock and then wanted to eat.

I’m trying to think through how it would have worked to say “you can eat whenever you’re ready” instead of “you can eat when you’re ready within this time period.” Would you let her eat whenever? Even at bedtime? I feel like our kids would exploit that.

I think this behavior from you and your dh is abusive.

It is. CPS would think so too. Withholding food in this manner would be grounds for removal of the child from the home. Someone should call them on OP. She better hope the child doesn’t tell a mandatory reporter what happened.

You are insane. Many parents can’t feed their children three meals a day and are not taken from the home. People tie their kids to the radiator and those kids aren’t removed. You are so delicate that I have no idea how you get through life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get it. You each spoke to her calmly, but issued the ultimatum, “eat now or not at all”? That doesn’t sound like deescalation. Next time, tell her to take the time that she needs to calm down and that there will be a plate waiting for her when she’s ready. Just fix her a plate and stick it in the fridge. You can still go ahead and clean up the kitchen. Kids need food; don’t withhold it as a punishment.

No. She was upset and in her room. We said it’s time for dinner. She said she wasn’t eating. Over the course of 30 minutes, each of us went to her room to talk to her, and said we knew she was upset but this is time for dinner if she wants to eat. She came to the table once and we said the same thing - this is dinner if you want to eat. It wasn’t an ultimatum or a punishment - it was dinner time.

I offered her bread and butter when she finally wanted to eat after last chance and she refused that because she wanted “dinner.”

For some background, she has a very long history of waiting until after last chance to say she wanted to do something. We gave in a lot when she was younger but for the past several years we’ve been very firm about last chance. So there’s definitely a bit of her wanting to do things exactly when she wants to do them. It wasn’t that she calmed down and then wanted to eat - more like she waited out the clock and then wanted to eat.

I’m trying to think through how it would have worked to say “you can eat whenever you’re ready” instead of “you can eat when you’re ready within this time period.” Would you let her eat whenever? Even at bedtime? I feel like our kids would exploit that.

I think this behavior from you and your dh is abusive.

It is. CPS would think so too. Withholding food in this manner would be grounds for removal of the child from the home. Someone should call them on OP. She better hope the child doesn’t tell a mandatory reporter what happened.

The child was offered bread and butter after the meal was over. You people are insane.

[Anonymous]

It's not the 1950s, and sending a hungry child to bed without dinner is a cruel power play.

[Anonymous]

You have to follow through when you make the decision, but I wouldn't have put dinner out there like that.

Not gonna lie: don't know how I would have handled the situation, but I do try to make sure I don't put myself in positions I don't want to /shouldn't follow through on, like withholding food.

I know it's tough and we can't always be perfect, but if you know she is going to run out the clock, don't give her the opportunity to do so.