Does class size matter at the college level?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

That’s great. I do think a lot of that is a function of ivies and schools like hopkins also having pretty small classes, which they promote.

Anyway, the reason to choose a lac is wanting to have a smaller school overall. Seeing your prof in the dining hall, your friends going to class at the same time as you, being able to fit your entire class on a staircase (a tradition at my Alma mater). Many people when touring will call it a “ghost town” during the day, but that’s what lac students like- to have peace and feel like the campus is yours to relax on.

Also, you don’t need to go to a slac to have small class sizes. Wake has slac size classes and is a medium size school. I think Tufts is similar.

100%. There’s just so many other reasons to want to go to most lacs.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it is easy to romanticize one's ideal version of the LAC experience, but reality can be--and often is in this case--a harsh teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

Sorry you had that experience, it wasn’t mine.

Nope, not my experience, just know academia and academics. And especially for professors that are prominent in their field, undergrads are often an afterthought.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

Sorry you had that experience, it wasn’t mine.

Nope, not my experience, just know academia and academics. And especially for professors that are prominent in their field, undergrads are often an afterthought.

Not your experience? Say no more, I will feel free to ignore then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

Sorry you had that experience, it wasn’t mine.

Nope, not my experience, just know academia and academics. And especially for professors that are prominent in their field, undergrads are often an afterthought.

Not your experience? Say no more, I will feel free to ignore then.

Interesting that you only listen to personal anecdotes. Not very intellectually rigorous of you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

Sorry you had that experience, it wasn’t mine.

Nope, not my experience, just know academia and academics. And especially for professors that are prominent in their field, undergrads are often an afterthought.

Not your experience? Say no more, I will feel free to ignore then.

Interesting that you only listen to personal anecdotes. Not very intellectually rigorous of you.

Dp but no one has linked any source that would indicate that anyone is operating on anything but personal anecdotes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My freshman kid is at a SLAC and one reason they chose it is for the small class sizes. In my opinion (and personal experience), there is a significant difference between a 40-50 person class and a class of 100-300. My kid had one class with around 40 students this year - that was their largest class, but the professor still knew them all, called on them by name, had lots of class participation, and was able to give very detailed feedback to them. No TAs ran labs or study sessions or did any grading. When grades were posted, the prof wrote each of the students an email about their performance in the class and her thoughts about other courses they might like in the department, and for some of them, that she hoped they considering majoring in the department. She also suggested research and summer opportunities to some of them. As for other classes, my kid's smallest class was 12 students - next semester they will have an even smaller class. And it's not just the relationships with the professors, your interaction with peers is also very different when there are 12 of you, or even 40 of you, versus 300 of you. It's personal preference of course but obviously there is a big difference.

Everything you just described has been my kid's experience at a large state school. She's on a first-name basis with most of her professors, several of whom have written deeply personal recommendation letters for her. She's also never had a TA in the classroom at all, and certainly no classes larger than an intro of about 150. Since then, her classes average around 30 people, more or less.

I don’t think they disagree with you, but at many large state schools the profs really don’t care to know your names.

True. The worst I saw was a LOR that seemed to openly blackball a student for being in office hours…this student had an A in my class, but…

How do you and your peers react to a LOR like that? I'd assume you'd read it as positive on the student but negative on the professor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

Sorry you had that experience, it wasn’t mine.

Nope, not my experience, just know academia and academics. And especially for professors that are prominent in their field, undergrads are often an afterthought.

Not your experience? Say no more, I will feel free to ignore then.

Interesting that you only listen to personal anecdotes. Not very intellectually rigorous of you.

Dp but no one has linked any source that would indicate that anyone is operating on anything but personal anecdotes.

Nothing wrong with an anecdote, just weird to solely rely on them. If you’ve been to grad school or know professors well (outside of being a student), you know that undergrads are usually low on their priority list, that’s all. Research, conferences/talks, grad students, administration and leadership roles all take precedence.

[Anonymous]

Yes, class size matters. Individuals are held more accountable, discussions are generally better, you are more likely to have your questions answered and discussed, you get to know professors better and so have more LORs available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My freshman kid is at a SLAC and one reason they chose it is for the small class sizes. In my opinion (and personal experience), there is a significant difference between a 40-50 person class and a class of 100-300. My kid had one class with around 40 students this year - that was their largest class, but the professor still knew them all, called on them by name, had lots of class participation, and was able to give very detailed feedback to them. No TAs ran labs or study sessions or did any grading. When grades were posted, the prof wrote each of the students an email about their performance in the class and her thoughts about other courses they might like in the department, and for some of them, that she hoped they considering majoring in the department. She also suggested research and summer opportunities to some of them. As for other classes, my kid's smallest class was 12 students - next semester they will have an even smaller class. And it's not just the relationships with the professors, your interaction with peers is also very different when there are 12 of you, or even 40 of you, versus 300 of you. It's personal preference of course but obviously there is a big difference.

Everything you just described has been my kid's experience at a large state school. She's on a first-name basis with most of her professors, several of whom have written deeply personal recommendation letters for her. She's also never had a TA in the classroom at all, and certainly no classes larger than an intro of about 150. Since then, her classes average around 30 people, more or less.

+1. This is pretty standard.

So you agree that class size matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

Sorry you had that experience, it wasn’t mine.

Nope, not my experience, just know academia and academics. And especially for professors that are prominent in their field, undergrads are often an afterthought.

Not your experience? Say no more, I will feel free to ignore then.

Interesting that you only listen to personal anecdotes. Not very intellectually rigorous of you.

Dp but no one has linked any source that would indicate that anyone is operating on anything but personal anecdotes.

Nothing wrong with an anecdote, just weird to solely rely on them. If you’ve been to grad school or know professors well (outside of being a student), you know that undergrads are usually low on their priority list, that’s all. Research, conferences/talks, grad students, administration and leadership roles all take precedence.

Wouldn’t know, went to an lac with no grad students, and the professors came explicitly to work with undergrads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

Sorry you had that experience, it wasn’t mine.

Nope, not my experience, just know academia and academics. And especially for professors that are prominent in their field, undergrads are often an afterthought.

Not your experience? Say no more, I will feel free to ignore then.

Interesting that you only listen to personal anecdotes. Not very intellectually rigorous of you.

You place opinions not based on personal experience above anecdotes? I don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

Sorry you had that experience, it wasn’t mine.

Nope, not my experience, just know academia and academics. And especially for professors that are prominent in their field, undergrads are often an afterthought.

Not your experience? Say no more, I will feel free to ignore then.

Interesting that you only listen to personal anecdotes. Not very intellectually rigorous of you.

Dp but no one has linked any source that would indicate that anyone is operating on anything but personal anecdotes.

Nothing wrong with an anecdote, just weird to solely rely on them. If you’ve been to grad school or know professors well (outside of being a student), you know that undergrads are usually low on their priority list, that’s all. Research, conferences/talks, grad students, administration and leadership roles all take precedence.

Wouldn’t know, went to a lac with no grad students, and the professors came explicitly to work with undergrads.

Yes, I agree that’s probably the main advantage of a LAC versus a research-oriented university.

[Anonymous]

Absolutely YES. This is extremely important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My freshman kid is at a SLAC and one reason they chose it is for the small class sizes. In my opinion (and personal experience), there is a significant difference between a 40-50 person class and a class of 100-300. My kid had one class with around 40 students this year - that was their largest class, but the professor still knew them all, called on them by name, had lots of class participation, and was able to give very detailed feedback to them. No TAs ran labs or study sessions or did any grading. When grades were posted, the prof wrote each of the students an email about their performance in the class and her thoughts about other courses they might like in the department, and for some of them, that she hoped they considering majoring in the department. She also suggested research and summer opportunities to some of them. As for other classes, my kid's smallest class was 12 students - next semester they will have an even smaller class. And it's not just the relationships with the professors, your interaction with peers is also very different when there are 12 of you, or even 40 of you, versus 300 of you. It's personal preference of course but obviously there is a big difference.

Everything you just described has been my kid's experience at a large state school. She's on a first-name basis with most of her professors, several of whom have written deeply personal recommendation letters for her. She's also never had a TA in the classroom at all, and certainly no classes larger than an intro of about 150. Since then, her classes average around 30 people, more or less.

+1. This is pretty standard.

So you agree that class size matters.

I never said it didn’t?

Feels like some weird people just descended on this thread to argue just to argue.