Does class size matter at the college level?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A 500 person class is basically YouTube.

What school has a 500 person class?

Haha. Lots of schools! I was in a class my first year at Harvard with about 900.

That sounds miserable.

It's considered the best class in the country, and regularly attended by non students, because the lecturer is incredibly talented as a writer and speaker.

Most large classes aren't that good, especially outside of humanities, over in subjects where being a brilliant researcher has nothing to do with writing or speaking abilities.

I am the PP who took "Justice" my first year. Sounds like the last PP took it, too! To be fair, the grad student who lead my weekly section/discussion class wasn't great. I learned to pick these better over the years. I LOVED my big lecture classes at Harvard but I was incredibly selective. I chose the great lecturers and the classes were riveting. But I also was in a tiny concentration that was all intense seminar classes with 4-15 students. I think a mix of lectures and seminars is ideal. I would not have been happy if my major requirements had all been large lectures. I definitely was challenged more and learned more in the seminars where I was pushed to participate and couldn't ever get a way with being unprepared for class.

Agree with others that anything over 50 is pretty much the same. The professor is only going to get to know a small number of more motivated students.

Most academics/professors in both large and small universities want their own kids to go to small liberal arts colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My freshman kid is at a SLAC and one reason they chose it is for the small class sizes. In my opinion (and personal experience), there is a significant difference between a 40-50 person class and a class of 100-300. My kid had one class with around 40 students this year - that was their largest class, but the professor still knew them all, called on them by name, had lots of class participation, and was able to give very detailed feedback to them. No TAs ran labs or study sessions or did any grading. When grades were posted, the prof wrote each of the students an email about their performance in the class and her thoughts about other courses they might like in the department, and for some of them, that she hoped they considering majoring in the department. She also suggested research and summer opportunities to some of them. As for other classes, my kid's smallest class was 12 students - next semester they will have an even smaller class. And it's not just the relationships with the professors, your interaction with peers is also very different when there are 12 of you, or even 40 of you, versus 300 of you. It's personal preference of course but obviously there is a big difference.

Everything you just described has been my kid's experience at a large state school. She's on a first-name basis with most of her professors, several of whom have written deeply personal recommendation letters for her. She's also never had a TA in the classroom at all, and certainly no classes larger than an intro of about 150. Since then, her classes average around 30 people, more or less.

+1. This is pretty standard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A 500 person class is basically YouTube.

What school has a 500 person class?

Haha. Lots of schools! I was in a class my first year at Harvard with about 900.

Yeah, Ec10 and CS50 are both huge. But most schools of any size have classes like this for intros.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A 500 person class is basically YouTube.

What school has a 500 person class?

Haha. Lots of schools! I was in a class my first year at Harvard with about 900.

Yeah, Ec10 and CS50 are both huge. But most schools of any size have classes like this for intros.

Absolutely. Surprising to see the PP make a comment about 500 students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A 500 person class is basically YouTube.

What school has a 500 person class?

Lots of large state university. I personally know UC Berkeley and UVA do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lecture vs a seminar are completely different experiences. My child wanted schools where she could access discussion based classes as much as possible. But I agree with you that a 50 person lecture is not that different from a 200 person lecture.

Of course, lecture courses are different from seminars.

If one prefer small classes.consider elite private National Universities such as Northwestern University and Vanderbilt. According to College Transitions, 45% of the undergraduate classes at Northwestern have 9 or fewer students enrolled and 78% of classes at Northwestern have 19 or fewer students enrolled. At Vanderbilt University, College Transitions reports that an incredibly high percentage (either 82% or 87%--I cannot recall at this time and do not want to check) of classes have 19 or fewer students enrolled.

State public universities often have large class sizes. To escape large class sizes at public universities, one should enroll in the public university's honors college.

Studies done decades ago show that the learning experience becomes different at a class size of 35 students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lecture vs a seminar are completely different experiences. My child wanted schools where she could access discussion based classes as much as possible. But I agree with you that a 50 person lecture is not that different from a 200 person lecture.

Of course, lecture courses are different from seminars.

If one prefer small classes.consider elite private National Universities such as Northwestern University and Vanderbilt. According to College Transitions, 45% of the undergraduate classes at Northwestern have 9 or fewer students enrolled and 78% of classes at Northwestern have 19 or fewer students enrolled. At Vanderbilt University, College Transitions reports that an incredibly high percentage (either 82% or 87%--I cannot recall at this time and do not want to check) of classes have 19 or fewer students enrolled.

State public universities often have large class sizes. To escape large class sizes at public universities, one should enroll in the public university's honors college.

Studies done decades ago show that the learning experience becomes different at a class size of 35 students.

It’s true that those types of universities have smaller classes on average, but most of the classes at a large state flagship are going to be under 35 students too. 71% of classes at Berkeley are under 30 kids. More than half of classes at Michigan and Florida are under 20 kids. And so on.

There are certainly more large classes but most of the kids’ time will generally be spent in smaller classes too.

[Anonymous]

I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My freshman kid is at a SLAC and one reason they chose it is for the small class sizes. In my opinion (and personal experience), there is a significant difference between a 40-50 person class and a class of 100-300. My kid had one class with around 40 students this year - that was their largest class, but the professor still knew them all, called on them by name, had lots of class participation, and was able to give very detailed feedback to them. No TAs ran labs or study sessions or did any grading. When grades were posted, the prof wrote each of the students an email about their performance in the class and her thoughts about other courses they might like in the department, and for some of them, that she hoped they considering majoring in the department. She also suggested research and summer opportunities to some of them. As for other classes, my kid's smallest class was 12 students - next semester they will have an even smaller class. And it's not just the relationships with the professors, your interaction with peers is also very different when there are 12 of you, or even 40 of you, versus 300 of you. It's personal preference of course but obviously there is a big difference.

Everything you just described has been my kid's experience at a large state school. She's on a first-name basis with most of her professors, several of whom have written deeply personal recommendation letters for her. She's also never had a TA in the classroom at all, and certainly no classes larger than an intro of about 150. Since then, her classes average around 30 people, more or less.

I don’t think they disagree with you, but at many large state schools the profs really don’t care to know your names.

True. The worst I saw was a LOR that seemed to openly blackball a student for being in office hours…this student had an A in my class, but…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

That’s great. I do think a lot of that is a function of ivies and schools like hopkins also having pretty small classes, which they promote.

Anyway, the reason to choose a lac is wanting to have a smaller school overall. Seeing your prof in the dining hall, your friends going to class at the same time as you, being able to fit your entire class on a staircase (a tradition at my Alma mater). Many people when touring will call it a “ghost town” during the day, but that’s what lac students like- to have peace and feel like the campus is yours to relax on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

The irony of this being that most tenured professors try to avoid the undergrads as much as possible.

Sorry you had that experience, it wasn’t mine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find these debates amusing. It seems like small class size advocates often have a bias against large universities and an idealized view of smaller schools. They imagine their kids having dinner and drinks with professors, engaging in weighty, esoteric discussions about literature or other profound topics.

For context, I attended a directional school with over 40,000 students, yet I often had classes with no more than 20 students. I was even invited to a professor's house for dinner and drinks.

I think many fans of SLACs struggle to grasp that not every class at a large university has 500 students. Once you realize that large public and private universities also offer smaller classes and access to professors, the main argument for choosing a SLAC or similar college starts to lose its weight. That may be an extreme statement, but I don’t think it’s far from the truth.

LAC grad and no I don’t think any of this. Now, I actually did drink with professors and even celebrated holidays at their houses, but that’s another discussion. I really don’t think most top slacs at all depend on the record of small classes: Williams does for tutorial, Swat maybe for honors??? But, most lacs have a few “big” or medium sized lecture courses.

I do think this sub attaches personalities to people who hardly exist in the real world.

Most top private universities do indeed encourage such out of class contacts with professors. I went to Hopkins and there were regularly scheduled dinners, hikes, and other activities with professors that students could sign up for. Harvard has funds dedicated for students to invite their professors out for meals, and similar activities. We’ve heard similar pitches at most of the top private colleges.

That’s great. I do think a lot of that is a function of ivies and schools like hopkins also having pretty small classes, which they promote.

Anyway, the reason to choose a lac is wanting to have a smaller school overall. Seeing your prof in the dining hall, your friends going to class at the same time as you, being able to fit your entire class on a staircase (a tradition at my Alma mater). Many people when touring will call it a “ghost town” during the day, but that’s what lac students like- to have peace and feel like the campus is yours to relax on.

Also, you don’t need to go to a slac to have small class sizes. Wake has slac size classes and is a medium size school. I think Tufts is similar.