Cost—yikes!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, make sure you see if the CCRC has any sort of safety net for when people run out of money. I was looking into a few options for my parents, and the communities had a special fund for exactly that. It's one of the reasons I plan on buying into a CCRC when I'm older. I don't want my kids to have to worry about moving me if I outlive my money.

My parents CcRC functions like that. The huge entry fee covers you if you “outlive” your money. You live for free and they don’t include ss in it.

You aren't living there for free. You are prepaying.

Yes, you are "prepaying" for higher level care. However, my parents are in a "luxury CCRC" and have the plan paid for where they do NOT pay anymore for care above Ind Living (except for 3 meals a day versus 1 currently). So currently they pay about $7K total for the 2 of them to have 1-1.5 meals a day and a 2bed/2bath apartment with cleaning, utilities, all maintenance included. If one goes to "advanced care" they only pay for the extra 2 meals per day. The other gets to stay in that apartment (or can downgrade, but not required). If both go to "advanced care of anytype" they will still only pay for the extra meals per day (so $300-500/month). Once they are both determined to be in advanced care and not moving back (ie not nursing care after a surgery or fall), then they have to give up the apartment.

And if they "run out of money", they will get to live there for free (and run out means spend down your investments---they won't touch your SS payouts, so you use that for medical expenses and basic living expenses (hair cuts, toiletries, etc). And if you have LTC insurance, they are not forced to "pay that to the CCRC" that is their own money. (my parents both have a 24 month policy with about $250/day payout.)

How much did they prepay in advanced? It had to be a huge chunk of money so if they are paying $7K on top of that for one meal and an apartment that's not a great deal.

The 7K/month is the monthly fee. That includes 1-1.5 meals per day for each person (depends upon how you spend it---they typically do dinner for 2 at a buffet daily and then my dad has 12-15 breakfast/lunches at the snack bar/quick meal place per month with rest of money). They have an aparemtn furnished with high end appliances, nice LVP, quartz counters, bimonthly cleaning and all utilities/maintenance is included. If something breaks, it's repaired quickly. Had a fridge break 2 years in, had a new one the next day installed by management.
It includes all activities and the large facility and grounds the CCRC has.
And yes the entry fee was over $400K. Obviously it's high. Because they don't pay more if both are in memory care or nursing care for another 10+ years.

Yes, they could get an apartment for a lot less. But if you can afford this it's great. And you get so much more than just a basic apartment. You are paying for the facilities, the shuttle rides everywhere, the activities, the indoor pool heated to 88, the pool classes/exercise classes, the shows and performances brought in for residents, etc. You are paying for even in Independent living they wear/carry a pager at all times. You hit that pager and someone is talking to you in 30 seconds and to you wherever you are on property (even if you can't talk) in 3-5 mins.
That is extremely useful, especially at 2am when one parent needs a ride to the ER, and the followup PT that was required for 6 months---well they have PT/OT on staff, so while you have to "pay" for it with your medical insurance, they accept medicare and you don't have to travel 2-3 times per week to a PT clinic---my parent just walked 5 mins and was at their PT appt.
They shuttle you to grocery stores and target/walmart multiple days per week. You can arrange a shuttle ride to doctor appt---a 5 hour roundtrip cost $30.26 (they stay at the appt in the parking lot so ready when you are ready to go). It's the ultimate in care.
But my Lower income parents managed to save to afford this (minus the entry fee) and I for one am thrilled they are spending on themselves finally and enjoying their golden years.

All it will take is 2 years in advanced care and it will financially be worth it.

Also, there is no price on knowing that if they need a bed in "advanced care" it will be available immediately after paperwork is filled out (proving you meet the needs for advanced care). The other parent can walk to see the parent in advanced care, all without going outside. Or they can be pushed their in a wheelchair if needed. The apartments are handicap accessible, all bathrooms have the pull chains, just like a hospital. So if they every get stuck/fall, help will come quickly. No sitting on the floor for 10 hours after a fall until someone realizes they cannot get ahold of grandma

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've never heard of someone having CNAs on top of skilled nursing. That's a cost most people would not pay for

It's because they want their parent/patient to have more 1on1 care. In a skilled nursing facility, the nurse in charge of you probably has 4-8 patients. If you push button you need to bathroom, it might be 5-10 mins before they get to you, if they are dealing with another patient. During the day having someone with your parent means they get more help/attention. But it doesn't need to be CNA, it could just be anyone willing to assist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Was there a point to your father sharing this with you? As in, is he worried he might run out of money? Is he hoping you might help?

There are government homes, OP, but a lot of them are not pleasant. There are waitlists, and they do a thorough check of assets, including a look back period of several years, to make sure you haven't squirreled wealth away somewhere.

Hmm, there are not government homes, but nursing homes that take Medicaid for residents. Yes, you complete forms and dissolve your assets (not all if one of the couple is not a resident - "community spouse").

I think there are challenges with the spouse being allowed to keep much in assets beyond a house. In other words, getting Medicaid for one half of a couple puts the other half at financial risk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've never heard of someone having CNAs on top of skilled nursing. That's a cost most people would not pay for

It's because they want their parent/patient to have more 1on1 care. In a skilled nursing facility, the nurse in charge of you probably has 4-8 patients. If you push button you need to bathroom, it might be 5-10 mins before they get to you, if they are dealing with another patient. During the day having someone with your parent means they get more help/attention. But it doesn't need to be CNA, it could just be anyone willing to assist

The ratio is far higher than that and lots of neglect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, make sure you see if the CCRC has any sort of safety net for when people run out of money. I was looking into a few options for my parents, and the communities had a special fund for exactly that. It's one of the reasons I plan on buying into a CCRC when I'm older. I don't want my kids to have to worry about moving me if I outlive my money.

My parents CcRC functions like that. The huge entry fee covers you if you “outlive” your money. You live for free and they don’t include ss in it.

You aren't living there for free. You are prepaying.

Yes it’s not free! You pay $1M or so as an entry fee.

We chose to avoid CCRC and pay monthly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, make sure you see if the CCRC has any sort of safety net for when people run out of money. I was looking into a few options for my parents, and the communities had a special fund for exactly that. It's one of the reasons I plan on buying into a CCRC when I'm older. I don't want my kids to have to worry about moving me if I outlive my money.

My parents CcRC functions like that. The huge entry fee covers you if you “outlive” your money. You live for free and they don’t include ss in it.

You aren't living there for free. You are prepaying.

Yes, you are "prepaying" for higher level care. However, my parents are in a "luxury CCRC" and have the plan paid for where they do NOT pay anymore for care above Ind Living (except for 3 meals a day versus 1 currently). So currently they pay about $7K total for the 2 of them to have 1-1.5 meals a day and a 2bed/2bath apartment with cleaning, utilities, all maintenance included. If one goes to "advanced care" they only pay for the extra 2 meals per day. The other gets to stay in that apartment (or can downgrade, but not required). If both go to "advanced care of anytype" they will still only pay for the extra meals per day (so $300-500/month). Once they are both determined to be in advanced care and not moving back (ie not nursing care after a surgery or fall), then they have to give up the apartment.

And if they "run out of money", they will get to live there for free (and run out means spend down your investments---they won't touch your SS payouts, so you use that for medical expenses and basic living expenses (hair cuts, toiletries, etc). And if you have LTC insurance, they are not forced to "pay that to the CCRC" that is their own money. (my parents both have a 24 month policy with about $250/day payout.)

How much did they prepay in advanced? It had to be a huge chunk of money so if they are paying $7K on top of that for one meal and an apartment that's not a great deal.

The 7K/month is the monthly fee. That includes 1-1.5 meals per day for each person (depends upon how you spend it---they typically do dinner for 2 at a buffet daily and then my dad has 12-15 breakfast/lunches at the snack bar/quick meal place per month with rest of money). They have an aparemtn furnished with high end appliances, nice LVP, quartz counters, bimonthly cleaning and all utilities/maintenance is included. If something breaks, it's repaired quickly. Had a fridge break 2 years in, had a new one the next day installed by management.
It includes all activities and the large facility and grounds the CCRC has.
And yes the entry fee was over $400K. Obviously it's high. Because they don't pay more if both are in memory care or nursing care for another 10+ years.

Yes, they could get an apartment for a lot less. But if you can afford this it's great. And you get so much more than just a basic apartment. You are paying for the facilities, the shuttle rides everywhere, the activities, the indoor pool heated to 88, the pool classes/exercise classes, the shows and performances brought in for residents, etc. You are paying for even in Independent living they wear/carry a pager at all times. You hit that pager and someone is talking to you in 30 seconds and to you wherever you are on property (even if you can't talk) in 3-5 mins.
That is extremely useful, especially at 2am when one parent needs a ride to the ER, and the followup PT that was required for 6 months---well they have PT/OT on staff, so while you have to "pay" for it with your medical insurance, they accept medicare and you don't have to travel 2-3 times per week to a PT clinic---my parent just walked 5 mins and was at their PT appt.
They shuttle you to grocery stores and target/walmart multiple days per week. You can arrange a shuttle ride to doctor appt---a 5 hour roundtrip cost $30.26 (they stay at the appt in the parking lot so ready when you are ready to go). It's the ultimate in care.
But my Lower income parents managed to save to afford this (minus the entry fee) and I for one am thrilled they are spending on themselves finally and enjoying their golden years.

All it will take is 2 years in advanced care and it will financially be worth it.

Also, there is no price on knowing that if they need a bed in "advanced care" it will be available immediately after paperwork is filled out (proving you meet the needs for advanced care). The other parent can walk to see the parent in advanced care, all without going outside. Or they can be pushed their in a wheelchair if needed. The apartments are handicap accessible, all bathrooms have the pull chains, just like a hospital. So if they every get stuck/fall, help will come quickly. No sitting on the floor for 10 hours after a fall until someone realizes they cannot get ahold of grandma

That doesn’t seem worth it when you you can get that for $4 and Walmart has an income program that delivers with no tips.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've never heard of someone having CNAs on top of skilled nursing. That's a cost most people would not pay for

It's because they want their parent/patient to have more 1on1 care. In a skilled nursing facility, the nurse in charge of you probably has 4-8 patients. If you push button you need to bathroom, it might be 5-10 mins before they get to you, if they are dealing with another patient. During the day having someone with your parent means they get more help/attention. But it doesn't need to be CNA, it could just be anyone willing to assist

The ratio is far higher than that and lots of neglect.

Not everywhere. You get what you pay for typically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, make sure you see if the CCRC has any sort of safety net for when people run out of money. I was looking into a few options for my parents, and the communities had a special fund for exactly that. It's one of the reasons I plan on buying into a CCRC when I'm older. I don't want my kids to have to worry about moving me if I outlive my money.

My parents CcRC functions like that. The huge entry fee covers you if you “outlive” your money. You live for free and they don’t include ss in it.

You aren't living there for free. You are prepaying.

Yes it’s not free! You pay $1M or so as an entry fee.

We chose to avoid CCRC and pay monthly.

We only paid ~$400K total for my parents entry into their 5 star facility. Yes, you prepay. But the fee for service plan is only $120K less and the monthly fee is $2k less. So yes you "save", about $24K/year and the $120K. But here are the rates should you need advanced care:

$248/$290/$402 per Day (Assisted living, Memory care, nursing care)

And if you need to go to Nursing care or assisted living temporarily, you would still be paying for your apartment and the advanced care. So $12K per month for nursing care and you might still be paying $5K/month for your IL apartment. If either parents ends up in Nursing care, it will only take 3.4 months in a year to pay for the monthly price difference for the year.
A year in memory care for one parent and the other staying in IL will just about pay the difference in entry fee, and 14 months for assisted living. So we hedged our bets that we will pay less this way. Not a guarantee, but highly likely. Either way, happy to spend the extra $120K up front and the extra $2K /month for the comfort of knowing it wont cost us anything extra ever should 1 or both parents needs advanced care, and that we don't pay extra to keep one in IL apartment either.

The way I view it, the CCRC is most likely making money either way, but we come out ahead by prepaying. My parents both come from families that live into their 90s+, even with very poor health. My parents are much healthier than their parents were and they all lived to 90+. So I can see 5+ years in "advanced care" for one or both of them. And it will be nice to know they only pay $7K total per month (plus maybe an extra $300 each for food), not $12K+ EACH

[Anonymous]

And pp, what's the name of the CCRC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:#America

Right? It’s sickening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've never heard of someone having CNAs on top of skilled nursing. That's a cost most people would not pay for

It's because they want their parent/patient to have more 1on1 care. In a skilled nursing facility, the nurse in charge of you probably has 4-8 patients. If you push button you need to bathroom, it might be 5-10 mins before they get to you, if they are dealing with another patient. During the day having someone with your parent means they get more help/attention. But it doesn't need to be CNA, it could just be anyone willing to assist

It’s very common to have a caregiver sit with a dementia patient or skilled nursing patient 24-7. My mother was in a specialized dementia facility and we still had to hire a 24-7 caregiver (from a totally unrelated agency) to sit with her. At that point, I realized it was cheaper to bring her back to her home with said caregiver.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, make sure you see if the CCRC has any sort of safety net for when people run out of money. I was looking into a few options for my parents, and the communities had a special fund for exactly that. It's one of the reasons I plan on buying into a CCRC when I'm older. I don't want my kids to have to worry about moving me if I outlive my money.

My parents CcRC functions like that. The huge entry fee covers you if you “outlive” your money. You live for free and they don’t include ss in it.

You aren't living there for free. You are prepaying.

Yes, you are "prepaying" for higher level care. However, my parents are in a "luxury CCRC" and have the plan paid for where they do NOT pay anymore for care above Ind Living (except for 3 meals a day versus 1 currently). So currently they pay about $7K total for the 2 of them to have 1-1.5 meals a day and a 2bed/2bath apartment with cleaning, utilities, all maintenance included. If one goes to "advanced care" they only pay for the extra 2 meals per day. The other gets to stay in that apartment (or can downgrade, but not required). If both go to "advanced care of anytype" they will still only pay for the extra meals per day (so $300-500/month). Once they are both determined to be in advanced care and not moving back (ie not nursing care after a surgery or fall), then they have to give up the apartment.

And if they "run out of money", they will get to live there for free (and run out means spend down your investments---they won't touch your SS payouts, so you use that for medical expenses and basic living expenses (hair cuts, toiletries, etc). And if you have LTC insurance, they are not forced to "pay that to the CCRC" that is their own money. (my parents both have a 24 month policy with about $250/day payout.)

How much did they prepay in advanced? It had to be a huge chunk of money so if they are paying $7K on top of that for one meal and an apartment that's not a great deal.

The 7K/month is the monthly fee. That includes 1-1.5 meals per day for each person (depends upon how you spend it---they typically do dinner for 2 at a buffet daily and then my dad has 12-15 breakfast/lunches at the snack bar/quick meal place per month with rest of money). They have an aparemtn furnished with high end appliances, nice LVP, quartz counters, bimonthly cleaning and all utilities/maintenance is included. If something breaks, it's repaired quickly. Had a fridge break 2 years in, had a new one the next day installed by management.
It includes all activities and the large facility and grounds the CCRC has.
And yes the entry fee was over $400K. Obviously it's high. Because they don't pay more if both are in memory care or nursing care for another 10+ years.

Yes, they could get an apartment for a lot less. But if you can afford this it's great. And you get so much more than just a basic apartment. You are paying for the facilities, the shuttle rides everywhere, the activities, the indoor pool heated to 88, the pool classes/exercise classes, the shows and performances brought in for residents, etc. You are paying for even in Independent living they wear/carry a pager at all times. You hit that pager and someone is talking to you in 30 seconds and to you wherever you are on property (even if you can't talk) in 3-5 mins.
That is extremely useful, especially at 2am when one parent needs a ride to the ER, and the followup PT that was required for 6 months---well they have PT/OT on staff, so while you have to "pay" for it with your medical insurance, they accept medicare and you don't have to travel 2-3 times per week to a PT clinic---my parent just walked 5 mins and was at their PT appt.
They shuttle you to grocery stores and target/walmart multiple days per week. You can arrange a shuttle ride to doctor appt---a 5 hour roundtrip cost $30.26 (they stay at the appt in the parking lot so ready when you are ready to go). It's the ultimate in care.
But my Lower income parents managed to save to afford this (minus the entry fee) and I for one am thrilled they are spending on themselves finally and enjoying their golden years.

All it will take is 2 years in advanced care and it will financially be worth it.

Also, there is no price on knowing that if they need a bed in "advanced care" it will be available immediately after paperwork is filled out (proving you meet the needs for advanced care). The other parent can walk to see the parent in advanced care, all without going outside. Or they can be pushed their in a wheelchair if needed. The apartments are handicap accessible, all bathrooms have the pull chains, just like a hospital. So if they every get stuck/fall, help will come quickly. No sitting on the floor for 10 hours after a fall until someone realizes they cannot get ahold of grandma

That doesn’t seem worth it when you you can get that for $4 and Walmart has an income program that delivers with no tips.

What does this comment even mean?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, make sure you see if the CCRC has any sort of safety net for when people run out of money. I was looking into a few options for my parents, and the communities had a special fund for exactly that. It's one of the reasons I plan on buying into a CCRC when I'm older. I don't want my kids to have to worry about moving me if I outlive my money.

My parents CcRC functions like that. The huge entry fee covers you if you “outlive” your money. You live for free and they don’t include ss in it.

You aren't living there for free. You are prepaying.

Yes it’s not free! You pay $1M or so as an entry fee.

We chose to avoid CCRC and pay monthly.

We only paid ~$400K total for my parents entry into their 5 star facility. Yes, you prepay. But the fee for service plan is only $120K less and the monthly fee is $2k less. So yes you "save", about $24K/year and the $120K. But here are the rates should you need advanced care:

$248/$290/$402 per Day (Assisted living, Memory care, nursing care)

And if you need to go to Nursing care or assisted living temporarily, you would still be paying for your apartment and the advanced care. So $12K per month for nursing care and you might still be paying $5K/month for your IL apartment. If either parents ends up in Nursing care, it will only take 3.4 months in a year to pay for the monthly price difference for the year.
A year in memory care for one parent and the other staying in IL will just about pay the difference in entry fee, and 14 months for assisted living. So we hedged our bets that we will pay less this way. Not a guarantee, but highly likely. Either way, happy to spend the extra $120K up front and the extra $2K /month for the comfort of knowing it wont cost us anything extra ever should 1 or both parents needs advanced care, and that we don't pay extra to keep one in IL apartment either.

The way I view it, the CCRC is most likely making money either way, but we come out ahead by prepaying. My parents both come from families that live into their 90s+, even with very poor health. My parents are much healthier than their parents were and they all lived to 90+. So I can see 5+ years in "advanced care" for one or both of them. And it will be nice to know they only pay $7K total per month (plus maybe an extra $300 each for food), not $12K+ EACH

They are running a business. The business will go bankrupt if all the people got more than they paid.

[Anonymous]

Can anyone comment on the 1099-type forms that you get from the Assisted living place for tax deductions (for medical care exceeding 7.5% of AGI?)

I’ve had two SILs go through this. One’s mother had a golden LTC policy and only had to pay 2 months per year out of her own invested and growing assets.

Another SIL told me that her parents received large statements on both AL and skilled nursing rooms, such that the 7.5% of AGI deduction meant that they really didn’t go through much of their assets. At the time, their CCRC buy-in was in the $400k range and SIL got 90% back for the estate settlement.

Are there any other positive experiences? I’m thinking that the OP might have this experience depending on her parents’ income.

[Anonymous]

So we save $$ our entire lives just to give it to the corrupt skilled nursing industry?