Does a dyslexic kid need more than Science of Reading approach in school?

[Anonymous]

I suggest you run a Google search feel free to look at the evidence that dyslexics have higher visual/ spatial reasoning, just because one has a Phd does not mean they are good at applying that knowledge or using that knowledge. My Dad has a Phd and they "research" I use that term loosely and write academic papers, sorry but the fact is people who experience and see what is going on will always have more practical knowledge of what is really going on. No disrespect intended, but I have taken my daughter to an educational psychologist she is dyslexic and her visual spatial reasoning is extremely high this is a very common characteristic of people with dyslexia, and if I had the time I would find you the research but since your a Phd I am sure you can find it. I only started posting here because I know what it is like to fight for a child with dyslexia and I want to help as many people as I can.

[Anonymous]

How well dyslexic kids respond to intervention really varies.
However, I definitely can say that Wilson was better for my kiddo than not having explicit reading instruction, just being asked to read and journal!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I suggest you run a Google search feel free to look at the evidence that dyslexics have higher visual/ spatial reasoning, just because one has a Phd does not mean they are good at applying that knowledge or using that knowledge. My Dad has a Phd and they "research" I use that term loosely and write academic papers, sorry but the fact is people who experience and see what is going on will always have more practical knowledge of what is really going on. No disrespect intended, but I have taken my daughter to an educational psychologist she is dyslexic and her visual spatial reasoning is extremely high this is a very common characteristic of people with dyslexia, and if I had the time I would find you the research but since your a Phd I am sure you can find it. I only started posting here because I know what it is like to fight for a child with dyslexia and I want to help as many people as I can.

I appreciate your post and the good intentions behind it, truly. Part of my concern is that while some kids with dyslexia do have enhanced visual/spatial abilities, many do not - and so it can be tough to feel like your kid doesn't have this superpower that others do.

I ran a quick search on Google Scholar and there's a good bit of research in this area. At a glance, there's a substantial proportion of people with dyslexia who actually have deficits in visual processing, e.g., this one: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/87565640902801882

or this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010945213802845

I didn't specifically search for spatial reasoning but there's likely something in there, too. And that doesn't mean that some people with dyslexia don't have superior visual/spatial processing, more that it's a diverse group of folks.

Last but not least, for anyone who's interested, Tim Odegard is a prominent dyslexia researcher and also has dyslexia himself - he hosts a terrific podcast on the science of dyslexia. He's also spoken against the idea of dyslexia as a gift of some kind. Just one person's opinion, but it's an informed one.

[Anonymous]

It's interesting how many different viewpoints there are in what will help. Maybe it really depends on the kid. I'm surprised to hear so people suggesting memorization. I think that is part of the puzzle and maybe key to survival for some dyslexics who didn't get good instruction, but in our experience, memorization is really hard for the kid, and I've heard the same from others. Whereas my non-dyslexic kid can see a new word in one sentence and then remember it a sentence later, my dyslexic kid will struggle with it throughout the book. All our instructors have said it takes much more repetition for dyslexics to get it.

Our kid actually had to be taught not to guess because he was using it as a coping mechanism to keep up, and it worked for a little while (looking at the first letter and guessing based on context), but he wasn't advancing or learning. I worry that memorization can be a path to guessing if it's not taught well (ie for sight words only).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://drdevon.com/does-your-dyslexic-child-have-a-visual-spatial-super-power/
That is just one of many out there a quick Google search will give you more.

This doesn’t show that dyslexic students learn best by sight words.

Bright, dyslexic students often have a large store of sight words. This is how many escape detection initially. They also lack the skills to accurately decode new words. Telling them to memorize ‘inhabitant’ as a sight word does not help. Explicitly teaching decoding does. Appropriate targeting of skills, manageable group size, and regularity of intervention sessions is important. Look there first if you’re not seeing success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I suggest you run a Google search feel free to look at the evidence that dyslexics have higher visual/ spatial reasoning, just because one has a Phd does not mean they are good at applying that knowledge or using that knowledge. My Dad has a Phd and they "research" I use that term loosely and write academic papers, sorry but the fact is people who experience and see what is going on will always have more practical knowledge of what is really going on. No disrespect intended, but I have taken my daughter to an educational psychologist she is dyslexic and her visual spatial reasoning is extremely high this is a very common characteristic of people with dyslexia, and if I had the time I would find you the research but since your a Phd I am sure you can find it. I only started posting here because I know what it is like to fight for a child with dyslexia and I want to help as many people as I can.

I appreciate your post and the good intentions behind it, truly. Part of my concern is that while some kids with dyslexia do have enhanced visual/spatial abilities, many do not - and so it can be tough to feel like your kid doesn't have this superpower that others do.

I ran a quick search on Google Scholar and there's a good bit of research in this area. At a glance, there's a substantial proportion of people with dyslexia who actually have deficits in visual processing, e.g., this one: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/87565640902801882

or this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010945213802845

I didn't specifically search for spatial reasoning but there's likely something in there, too. And that doesn't mean that some people with dyslexia don't have superior visual/spatial processing, more that it's a diverse group of folks.

Last but not least, for anyone who's interested, Tim Odegard is a prominent dyslexia researcher and also has dyslexia himself - he hosts a terrific podcast on the science of dyslexia. He's also spoken against the idea of dyslexia as a gift of some kind. Just one person's opinion, but it's an informed one.

Maybe not all dyslexics but my daughter who does have dyslexia indeed has very high visual/spatial reasoning per the educational psychologist I took her to which was extremely expensive and also makes sense if you would see her strengths extremely good at geometry and trigonometry yet struggles with basic math, she also has won art tournaments with KCEA and is very good at anything involving building, or anything mechanical.
I would also like to point out that there is research supporting both are stances on visual/ spatial reasoning. The truth is since they now umbrella dyslexia to almost any child that has issues with reading the research could be off or a kid may be considered dyslexic even if they are not.
While I will agree memorization of sight words only works up to a certain point my daughter learned to read much better with memorization reading and then latin root words to help decode a word rather then phonics. Also One of the things I meant by visual to go with a word that has none like and is have your child make up and image that represents that word to them that tip came to me via meeting a German man at an educational conference.
Dyslexics and children in general have low phonetic awareness it's even worse for dyslexics, less then 20 percent of the English language is phonetic.
I do encourage at least a look at books in dyslexic friendly fonts.
Dyslexia is frustrating for a child but getting them the right tools and also knowing and encouraging their strengths helps them build self-confidence my daughter would just plow through maze books, visual puzzle books anything where they can show there aptitude and gift.
Yes gift for higher visual/ spatial reasoning and the way there brains don't compartmentalize (hence they can get information overload) they are able to make connections where others can't.
I don't know if my counter part here has ever truly raised or knew a dyslexic child I am curious what your experience is with one since we so vastly disagree?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading interventionist here: Different people mean different things by "Science of Reading." Most kids with dyslexia (but not all) have weak phonological skills and weak phonics skills. Some kids have trouble with rapid naming (RAN/RAS), processing speed, working memory and other issues. You can't change someone's processing speed or working memory, but you can make a huge impact on weak phonological and phonics skills. Even if your child's SpEd teacher knows exactly what to do, there isn't enough time at school to teach a dyslexic student to read in the 60 or 90 minutes they'll get in SpEd. Good that you can do the outside tutoring.

From Holly Lane at the University of Florida Literacy Institute - creators of UFLI

Holly Lane
Admin
"Yes! The components of the program align very well with what we know is effective for students with dyslexia. They don't need anything different, but most students with dyslexia will need far more opportunities to respond or to practice the skills than are provided in a typical whole-group lesson. So, in addition to whole-group, provide more practice in each element during small-group or 1:1 instruction. In particular...
- Review of new concepts will help students retain the information. Specifically, review the articulatory gestures to develop phonemic awareness, and review the grapheme placement to support understanding of the concept boundaries.
- More time doing word work with manipulative letters will improve phoneme blending and segmentation skills and build accuracy with encoding and decoding.
- More time in the blending drill will support decoding automaticity.
- Review of irregular words will promote retention.
- Practice reading and rereading the decodable passage will promote reading fluency.
- Careful observation of student responses with appropriate behavior-specific praise for correct responses and corrective feedback for incorrect responses will ensure that their practice is productive and promoting the right things."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I have a dyslexic child and work in education, my daughter attends private school and does well, but this is due to the fact that her elementary school class has only eight children in it. The small size, personnel instruction and the fact her third grade teacher had experience with dyslexia due to her niece being dyslexic helped my child immensely. The sad truth is public schools now do a "one size all" approach for children struggling to read. Dyslexics learn to read much better using sight words and a tactile activity for each letter sound. Some of the activities my daughters teacher would do for example is have her write the letter in sand and then form the letter using small beads or shells then go over the letter sound. Another thing that helped my daughter is the English teacher there knew latin and she taught my daughter latin root words, though my daughter is now going into 10th grade she still credits her elementary teachers for being able to read at grade level though a bit slower then some peers. So in short learning many many more sight words then average, tactile instruction for each letter sound and shape, and if you are able to latin root words, my daughter said this made the biggest difference for her and enabled her to be able to read /decode a lot of words. She loves latin so much she is actually taking it in High School because it made such a big difference.
Get your child into a small school or if possible a dyslexic school, I personally was unable to afford a private dyslexic school and there are none in my area but was Blessed to have a small private school with teachers whom cared and had experience with dyslexia.
I have to bite my tongue at work, when I identify a clearly dyslexic student and they give that student the same instruction as any other child needing support. I see the frustration for that child and I know why it isn't working but my hands are tied. These schools today Identify almost anyone with a reading issue as dyslexic but that's just not true and dyslexics require a very specific type of learning method.

This is not true.

Actually this is very true, Dyslexics have a much higher visual/spatial awareness then others and they do not compartmentalize information so they make connections that many people do not make.

It is not true that dyslexics learn best by memorizing ‘sight’ words. They learn best with explicit, systematic instruction in sound/symbol correspondence. If they could just memorize words, they would. Believe what you want though.

-Reading Specialist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I suggest you run a Google search feel free to look at the evidence that dyslexics have higher visual/ spatial reasoning, just because one has a Phd does not mean they are good at applying that knowledge or using that knowledge. My Dad has a Phd and they "research" I use that term loosely and write academic papers, sorry but the fact is people who experience and see what is going on will always have more practical knowledge of what is really going on. No disrespect intended, but I have taken my daughter to an educational psychologist she is dyslexic and her visual spatial reasoning is extremely high this is a very common characteristic of people with dyslexia, and if I had the time I would find you the research but since your a Phd I am sure you can find it. I only started posting here because I know what it is like to fight for a child with dyslexia and I want to help as many people as I can.

I appreciate your post and the good intentions behind it, truly. Part of my concern is that while some kids with dyslexia do have enhanced visual/spatial abilities, many do not - and so it can be tough to feel like your kid doesn't have this superpower that others do.

I ran a quick search on Google Scholar and there's a good bit of research in this area. At a glance, there's a substantial proportion of people with dyslexia who actually have deficits in visual processing, e.g., this one: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/87565640902801882

or this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010945213802845

I didn't specifically search for spatial reasoning but there's likely something in there, too. And that doesn't mean that some people with dyslexia don't have superior visual/spatial processing, more that it's a diverse group of folks.

Last but not least, for anyone who's interested, Tim Odegard is a prominent dyslexia researcher and also has dyslexia himself - he hosts a terrific podcast on the science of dyslexia. He's also spoken against the idea of dyslexia as a gift of some kind. Just one person's opinion, but it's an informed one.

Maybe not all dyslexics but my daughter who does have dyslexia indeed has very high visual/spatial reasoning per the educational psychologist I took her to which was extremely expensive and also makes sense if you would see her strengths extremely good at geometry and trigonometry yet struggles with basic math, she also has won art tournaments with KCEA and is very good at anything involving building, or anything mechanical.
I would also like to point out that there is research supporting both are stances on visual/ spatial reasoning. The truth is since they now umbrella dyslexia to almost any child that has issues with reading the research could be off or a kid may be considered dyslexic even if they are not.
While I will agree memorization of sight words only works up to a certain point my daughter learned to read much better with memorization reading and then latin root words to help decode a word rather then phonics. Also One of the things I meant by visual to go with a word that has none like and is have your child make up and image that represents that word to them that tip came to me via meeting a German man at an educational conference.
Dyslexics and children in general have low phonetic awareness it's even worse for dyslexics, less then 20 percent of the English language is phonetic.
I do encourage at least a look at books in dyslexic friendly fonts.
Dyslexia is frustrating for a child but getting them the right tools and also knowing and encouraging their strengths helps them build self-confidence my daughter would just plow through maze books, visual puzzle books anything where they can show there aptitude and gift.
Yes gift for higher visual/ spatial reasoning and the way there brains don't compartmentalize (hence they can get information overload) they are able to make connections where others can't.
I don't know if my counter part here has ever truly raised or knew a dyslexic child I am curious what your experience is with one since we so vastly disagree?

I do have a dyslexic child: my 8 year old DS. We work with him at home, have an IEP, etc. He’s one person with dyslexia, though, so I don’t know why he alone would be the sole (or even largest) source of my knowledge about dyslexia.

My perspective is informed by a few things: advanced training in clinical psychology and clinical neuroscience, research expertise, reading peer-reviewed studies published in reputable journals, and the knowledge that dyslexia is not a unitary construct, nor are “dyslexics” a single homogenous group. Sure, *some* people with dyslexia have significant strengths in visual-spatial processing. Many others do not. Thus, it’s not accurate to insist that “dyslexics have higher visual/spatial reasoning” because not all of them do. I also don’t consider Google searches to automatically yield evidence-based information about dyslexia.

This publication, from Annals of Dyslexia and written by Tim Odegard and Madalyn Dye, articulates it well: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38877328/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure it depends on the intensity of dyslexia and when instruction starts, but in your general experience, does a kid with dyslexia need more intensive intervention than a school-wide program that is informed by the Science of Reading?

The Science of Reading seems to be a general concept encompassing phonics-based instruction and the type of instruction that generally benefits dyslexic kids as well as others, but there are a bunch of different Science of Reading curricula out there, and I'm sure they each vary.

We will be doing some out-of-school tutoring with an OG tutor, but within school, do we need to push for more intervention than a Science of Reading approach? The school district uses Science of Reading and seems proud of it, but I'm not clear whether my dyslexic kid will get what he needs with that. Is it more about the level of intervention needed (i.e. more intense one-on-one) and less about needing a different approach, or is he likely to need some kind of specialized approach beyond what a reading interventionist would normally offer? They are dragging their feet about an IEP and talking a lot about the Science of Reading, so I'm trying to understand if an IEP would just be more of the same instruction or would really unlock some different kind of instruction.

My daughter has dyslexia.

Dyslexic kids need as much OG tutoring and instruction as possible, both in a group and 1:1.

[Anonymous]

We have a child with high IQ and dyslexia. They benefited most from one on one OG tutoring outside of school with learning accommodations, eg. time on tests, and voice to text on assignments, for school. We did not trust the school to perform the interventions.

It’s expensive, but if you can afford it I think best to pay for one on one tutoring from at least 2nd through 5th grade. I’d do that before saving for college if it is a trade off, it’s that important to intervene while you can. By doing it one on one you can focus on what your individual child needs.

Best of luck, none of this is easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have a child with high IQ and dyslexia. They benefited most from one on one OG tutoring outside of school with learning accommodations, eg. time on tests, and voice to text on assignments, for school. We did not trust the school to perform the interventions.

It’s expensive, but if you can afford it I think best to pay for one on one tutoring from at least 2nd through 5th grade. I’d do that before saving for college if it is a trade off, it’s that important to intervene while you can. By doing it one on one you can focus on what your individual child needs.

Best of luck, none of this is easy.

Completely agree. DD is also high IQ and has dyslexia and ADHD.

We started 1:1 tutoring as soon as DD was diagnosed at the beginning of 1st grade. We combined it with an OG curriculum at her school and small group pull-out sessions with the reading specialist.

She is entering 2nd right on the cusp of grade level. We will be continuing with all that intervention for as long as necessary.

PS: I saw a discussion of visual-spatial reasoning above. My kid does have visual-spatial reasoning that is too high to be captured on a test. Her idea of a good time is to do a completely clear puzzle. She never uses the picture for puzzles (even 200-300 piece ones) because she said it makes it way too easy.

This is quite the journey because she’s so far ahead in some areas, but behind in others.

[Anonymous]

The issue is that a school can say they use a curriculum that is a Science of Reading method but unfortunately too many teachers aren't following the method with fidelity.

The best bet is spend the money on tutoring. We tried with public school and got our child an IEP but it was a total joke. I wish we hadn't bothered at all since it was stressful and in the end pointless.

We also switched our child to parochial school because they focus on fundamentals - weekly spelling test, phonics lesson, textbooks and worksheets.

I bought Wilson Reading and used that daily for a while with my child. I also mixed it up with All About Reading - their phonics reading books are really nicely illustrated! I also bought Apples and Pears reading a British program that is pretty cheap (synthetic phonics that takes 10 m minutes a day) and Dancing Bears (Spelling Program); Dandelion readers - British phonics readers that were high interest. https://www.phonicbooks.com/product-category/catch-up-readers/

It is a slog in a way to get a dyslexic kid reading and then once that is on the way often spelling difficulties remain so they need more help in spelling.

Then add to that that you have to keep reading to your child at night and having them listen to audiobooks to keep developing their vocabulary and comprehension.

My son is now in high school and doing really well! So honestly there is hope. Some days I wonder if it was all worth it. He will never be the best speller and it is easier for him to listen to an audiobook but overall he is getting A's and B's in honors classes with a 504 plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure it depends on the intensity of dyslexia and when instruction starts, but in your general experience, does a kid with dyslexia need more intensive intervention than a school-wide program that is informed by the Science of Reading?

The Science of Reading seems to be a general concept encompassing phonics-based instruction and the type of instruction that generally benefits dyslexic kids as well as others, but there are a bunch of different Science of Reading curricula out there, and I'm sure they each vary.

We will be doing some out-of-school tutoring with an OG tutor, but within school, do we need to push for more intervention than a Science of Reading approach? The school district uses Science of Reading and seems proud of it, but I'm not clear whether my dyslexic kid will get what he needs with that. Is it more about the level of intervention needed (i.e. more intense one-on-one) and less about needing a different approach, or is he likely to need some kind of specialized approach beyond what a reading interventionist would normally offer? They are dragging their feet about an IEP and talking a lot about the Science of Reading, so I'm trying to understand if an IEP would just be more of the same instruction or would really unlock some different kind of instruction.

My daughter has dyslexia.

Dyslexic kids need as much OG tutoring and instruction as possible, both in a group and 1:1.

You are perpetuating a myth that OG is a requirement.

[Anonymous]

I recommend people read Sally Shaywitz’s “Overcoming Dyslexia” to help them figure out how to best treat their child. She is one of the leaders in dyslexia research.

I also like what Maryanne Wolf has to say.