what is the norm in rec basketball with respect to allocating minutes across players? equal playing time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’d suggest helping your daughter learn to speak up. I’ve coached rec league soccer for the past few years and it can be really confusing and chaotic as the coach.

In one game, I accidentally sat one kid for 2 quarters and let someone else play the whole game. It was a completely honest mistake—the other team was short players so we loaned some of ours, a few kids got hurt and had to come out, and they were all yelling and horsing around on the sidelines in the insane way that third graders do and I just got confused.

Nobody said anything, so I discovered my mistake at the very end of the game. The kid who sat out was quiet and well behaved so I kind of forgot about them. Again, completely my fault but I reminded everyone next time that they should always speak up if I make that kind of mistake. And even if I don’t make a mistake, they should speak up and let me know that they’re eager to play (or not).

I have a few kids on my rec team who are there because their parents make them. Those kids hate to play (and sometimes are very quiet). They’ll ask if they can NOT play as long as they play the first two quarters so I’m trying to accommodate those kids too.

All of this to say that it’s a great chance to teach your daughter about self-advocacy and to articulate her needs and wants to a coach.

And as a coach, I hope you give the volunteer coach the benefit of the doubt!

This is a really good point PP. Thanks for making it. Have definitely seen situations where good coaches make honest playing time mistakes in rec. There can be a lot to balance and it definitely happens unintentionally sometimes (it also sadly happens intentionally sometimes).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d suggest helping your daughter learn to speak up. I’ve coached rec league soccer for the past few years and it can be really confusing and chaotic as the coach.

In one game, I accidentally sat one kid for 2 quarters and let someone else play the whole game. It was a completely honest mistake—the other team was short players so we loaned some of ours, a few kids got hurt and had to come out, and they were all yelling and horsing around on the sidelines in the insane way that third graders do and I just got confused.

Nobody said anything, so I discovered my mistake at the very end of the game. The kid who sat out was quiet and well behaved so I kind of forgot about them. Again, completely my fault but I reminded everyone next time that they should always speak up if I make that kind of mistake. And even if I don’t make a mistake, they should speak up and let me know that they’re eager to play (or not).

I have a few kids on my rec team who are there because their parents make them. Those kids hate to play (and sometimes are very quiet). They’ll ask if they can NOT play as long as they play the first two quarters so I’m trying to accommodate those kids too.

All of this to say that it’s a great chance to teach your daughter about self-advocacy and to articulate her needs and wants to a coach.

And as a coach, I hope you give the volunteer coach the benefit of the doubt!

This is a really good point PP. Thanks for making it. Have definitely seen situations where good coaches make honest playing time mistakes in rec. There can be a lot to balance and it definitely happens unintentionally sometimes (it also sadly happens intentionally sometimes).

The mistake is easy to make with big teams and rosters -- say, 11v11 soccer with a roster of 16. But with a roster of merely 5 for 3v3 basketball, giving one kid 300% of the playing time of another kid is most likely intentional. It is hard to mess up by such a massive margin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:BTW, these minute counts are close to accurate because I turned on a minute counter about 5 minutes into the 1st game because I sensed that something odd was happening.

So within 5 minutes of the 1st game you were already tracking playing time? That seems a little odd. You knew right away that playing time wasn't equal? Man, you sound like a real peach to have as a parent on the team.

Should there be equal or mostly equal time in Arlington's 3 v 3. More likely than not time should be relatively equal. But there are numerous other factors into playing time than straight minutes. You've stated that your daughter is better then the coaches daughter at shooting and dribbling. You do realize there is more to basketball than just that. Is she taller? so is your daughter shorter and this girl taller such that they are playing different positions. Even in 3 v 3, you need to have height to get rebounds. Maybe she was having an off day but the coach (and father) knows this. As someone that has coached in that league and has had new kids placed on my team, I've generally taken the view that you'll get playing time and it gets more as I start to learn what your strengths and weaknesses are. In other words, I want to understand how you play the game. If you are a strong player, I'll provide more time and also use you to cover up for a weaker player, with the intention of keeping a balanced team out there. If you are a weaker player, I'm going to make sure one of my stronger players is out there. (And I get it that you think your kid is one of the better players but there is always inherent biases when evaluating our own kids).

As a coach, it isn't as easy to sub as you think. If game play goes on for a long time without a break, you can't just sub. And some players just sit there. Now, in what amounts to rec basketball 3 v 3 that likely didn't happen but you never know.

As for coaching, most of the 3 v 3 teams are preformed with kids that know each other. I'm sure there are some Arlington Soccer teams that have 3v3 teams at your daughter's age. Maybe you should ask yourself, why your daughter wasn't asked to join a team with her friends...or, maybe a better way would be to form your own team and you could be the coach. If that didn't happen, maybe you need to look at the mirror on this issue - especially if teammates of your daughter are playing for other 3 v 3 teams (this goes to my first paragraph above) and your daughter wasn't asked to be on that team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTW, these minute counts are close to accurate because I turned on a minute counter about 5 minutes into the 1st game because I sensed that something odd was happening.

So within 5 minutes of the 1st game you were already tracking playing time? That seems a little odd. You knew right away that playing time wasn't equal? Man, you sound like a real peach to have as a parent on the team.

Should there be equal or mostly equal time in Arlington's 3 v 3. More likely than not time should be relatively equal. But there are numerous other factors into playing time than straight minutes. You've stated that your daughter is better then the coaches daughter at shooting and dribbling. You do realize there is more to basketball than just that. Is she taller? so is your daughter shorter and this girl taller such that they are playing different positions. Even in 3 v 3, you need to have height to get rebounds. Maybe she was having an off day but the coach (and father) knows this. As someone that has coached in that league and has had new kids placed on my team, I've generally taken the view that you'll get playing time and it gets more as I start to learn what your strengths and weaknesses are. In other words, I want to understand how you play the game. If you are a strong player, I'll provide more time and also use you to cover up for a weaker player, with the intention of keeping a balanced team out there. If you are a weaker player, I'm going to make sure one of my stronger players is out there. (And I get it that you think your kid is one of the better players but there is always inherent biases when evaluating our own kids).

As a coach, it isn't as easy to sub as you think. If game play goes on for a long time without a break, you can't just sub. And some players just sit there. Now, in what amounts to rec basketball 3 v 3 that likely didn't happen but you never know.

As for coaching, most of the 3 v 3 teams are preformed with kids that know each other. I'm sure there are some Arlington Soccer teams that have 3v3 teams at your daughter's age. Maybe you should ask yourself, why your daughter wasn't asked to join a team with her friends...or, maybe a better way would be to form your own team and you could be the coach. If that didn't happen, maybe you need to look at the mirror on this issue - especially if teammates of your daughter are playing for other 3 v 3 teams (this goes to my first paragraph above) and your daughter wasn't asked to be on that team.

OP here. Plenty of opportunities to sub in 3v3. My daughter sat on the bench for 5 solid minutes to start the game, and that is when I began tracking. Most coaches rotate players in and out of the game quite frequently because the games are so short. So sitting a kid for 5 minutes is really odd and rarely happens.

My daughter has been on team with her friends the last couple of years, but the team fell apart because most kids are focused on their main sports this summer, or are away for the summer. Hence, she ended up on a new team.

I've coached various sports for 5 years. 3v3 is absolutely the easiest with respect to balancing out playing time. One typically has 4 or 5 players available to fill 3 slots on the court. I think even a young kid could manage subs in this situation.

Lastly, this league is for fun. There are no practices. Kids swap teams when there aren't enough players on Saturdays. If one team has 5 kids, and another has only 2, then a kid will jump from one team to another. This is informal. It is more like getting together for a practice session than for a game. The standings don't matter to most kids. Rather, the kids just want to get together and enjoy themselves. This is not a highly competitive league. There is maybe one travel player in the entire league. For this reason, all of the other coaches I've encountered in this league sub players in and out with a single goal in mind: to make sure playing time is equally allocated. The sole exception is the coach that is the subject of this thread. She is the anomaly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OP here. Plenty of opportunities to sub in 3v3. My daughter sat on the bench for 5 solid minutes to start the game, and that is when I began tracking. Most coaches rotate players in and out of the game quite frequently because the games are so short. So sitting a kid for 5 minutes is really odd and rarely happens.

I've coached in this league. I know exactly how and why it is run.

I would in no way make any substitutions 5 minutes into a game of 3 v 3 basketball. Maybe at the 8 to 10 minute mark but not at the 5 minute mark. Kids aren't even winded. Constant subbing for subbing sakes is dumb...constant pulling and putting in players gives them no sense of the game flow. If I was coaching and saw you whip out your phone to start tracking your kids time, I'd probably have reacted in somewhat the same way (granted I wouldn't have noticed).

In fact, I'll tell you exactly how I'd sub in this situation with 5 kids. My 3 starters would be out there until 10 minute mark. I'd sub the two kids in and leave my best player out there. Sub again at about 15 minute mark for my best player bringing my 2nd best player back out there. At about the 5 minute mark, I'd have the starters back out there. Though depends on game situation. If it is a blow out either way, I'd just leave the kids out there. If it is closer, I'd bring kids back sooner or not just depends. I'd also watch to see how kids are playing. I have some competitive kids and if I see them fouling too much or getting outside their own head, I might sub them at that point.

I'll note you didn't respond to the other aspects of my post about height or anything like that. The fact you've made 20+ response posts tells me you are likely more invested in this than you should be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OP here. Plenty of opportunities to sub in 3v3. My daughter sat on the bench for 5 solid minutes to start the game, and that is when I began tracking. Most coaches rotate players in and out of the game quite frequently because the games are so short. So sitting a kid for 5 minutes is really odd and rarely happens.

I've coached in this league. I know exactly how and why it is run.

I would in no way make any substitutions 5 minutes into a game of 3 v 3 basketball. Maybe at the 8 to 10 minute mark but not at the 5 minute mark. Kids aren't even winded. Constant subbing for subbing sakes is dumb...constant pulling and putting in players gives them no sense of the game flow. If I was coaching and saw you whip out your phone to start tracking your kids time, I'd probably have reacted in somewhat the same way (granted I wouldn't have noticed).

In fact, I'll tell you exactly how I'd sub in this situation with 5 kids. My 3 starters would be out there until 10 minute mark. I'd sub the two kids in and leave my best player out there. Sub again at about 15 minute mark for my best player bringing my 2nd best player back out there. At about the 5 minute mark, I'd have the starters back out there. Though depends on game situation. If it is a blow out either way, I'd just leave the kids out there. If it is closer, I'd bring kids back sooner or not just depends. I'd also watch to see how kids are playing. I have some competitive kids and if I see them fouling too much or getting outside their own head, I might sub them at that point.

I'll note you didn't respond to the other aspects of my post about height or anything like that. The fact you've made 20+ response posts tells me you are likely more invested in this than you should be.

OP here. FYI -- kids can't foul out in this league. You sure you coached in the summer league? The games are much shorter than winter league, and subbing is more frequent. A typical pattern is to cycle one new kid in every 3 minutes. This isn't crazy when you consider that games are only 23 minutes. Of course, there is no single right way to do this, provided that you aim for even minutes across kids.

My kid absolutely LOVES this league. She looks forward to it each summer, and is excited and pumped up every Saturday morning when we head out to the game(s). My daughter was crestfallen after this past weekend, and confused by the situation. So yes, I'm invested. This league matters a lot to her, and therefore it matters to me.

I didn't catch your reference about height. Unsure how it is relevant. My kid is a strong player on both offense and defense, and performed well in the few minutes she was on the court. But even if she were a weak player, I think it is very poor behavior in a rec league for a coach to play her own daughter 300% more than some other kid on the team. That just isn't right, IMO. Rec coaches should strive to create a positive environment for all kids. Any kid who wants to play (as opposed to being forced to play by their parents) should be given their fair share of playing time.

I guess we can shrug our shoulders when we see this type of immature coaching behavior, and teach our kids to simply accept it. Unsure what message this sends, however, to a young mind. Yes, kids should be polite. Yes, they should be courteous and respectful to coaches. But if my daughter is upset about an obviously unfair situation, I'd like her to feel like she has some power to remedy it. It is up to her, of course, how we (or she) handles it. I've discussed options with her, and she has read some of these posts. I appreciate the range of opinions offered here. We will see what next Saturday brings.

[Anonymous]

OP here. FYI -- kids can't foul out in this league. You sure you coached in the summer league? The games are much shorter than winter league, and subbing is more frequent. A typical pattern is to cycle one new kid in every 3 minutes. This isn't crazy when you consider that games are only 23 minutes. Of course, there is no single right way to do this, provided that you aim for even minutes across kids.




Not surprising, you didn't read what I wrote. I stated too much fouling, not that they would foul out. Mostly to keep tempers and kids within their own mind in the games. I'm dealing with very competitive 9 and 10 year old boys that are still learning to move their feet and not trying to reach a ton. You cycle one new kid every three minutes is your own decisions on how subbing should be made. No one subs every 3 minutes except maybe on the team you played on last year.

As I said, you've now instantly responded to almost every post...that points to a you issue.

[Anonymous]

OP isn't sure how height is relevant to basketball? LOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP isn't sure how height is relevant to basketball? LOL.

Not irrelevant to basketball -- irrelevant to the decision of how much or how little playing time I kid should get in a recreational league.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know how you are this concerned with a rec league where it’s for fun. At this age, Basketball is a sports where you must play with a friend. Your daughter could be the next Cheryl Swoopes and no one cares. The coach is going to play their kid and their kids friends. I suggest you find another league or insist upon forming your own team. I would not be surprised if the other coaches aren’t also coaching their daughters and their daughters friends which is why you believe they are doing such a better job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you have a stop watch to record playing times?

If your daughter didn’t know the game she would be slowing down the players who did know it. Have her learn the game before the practice next time.

OP here. My daughter has played rec b-ball for 5 years, both in winter and summer leagues. She has strong skills and is an order of magnitude better than the coach's daughter who has weak dribbling and shooting skills, can't play defense worth a darn, and is overweight and slow.

My kid is a multisport athlete, and has excellent conditioning as a result of travel soccer. In the few minutes my kid was in the game this past weekend, she scored repeatedly.

So this isn't a question of b-ball skills. My daughter is a strong player. She isn't slowing anybody down. The team played much better when she was on the court.

Playing a lot of soccer and rec basketball doesn’t transfer into being a great basketball player.

They were playing a game and your daughter didn’t have that skill. It was probably no big deal and parent coaches suck half the time but that could have been the reason, no matter how trivial it sounds.

We had high school coaches in rec basketball. They sucked but they also didn’t give some players more time than others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP isn't sure how height is relevant to basketball? LOL.

Not irrelevant to basketball -- irrelevant to the decision of how much or how little playing time I kid should get in a recreational league.

This is a little contradictory. You said that your daughter is very good. The coaches daughter is not so good.

But now you’re saying it’s a rec team and everyone should get equal time no matter the skill level. I agree with this. That’s what most rec teams do.

My daughter only started at age 11. She went into rec and got equal time even though she didn’t contribute much. She’s 12 now and 5’8” and hasn’t started puberty yet. Certain body types and height help. She’s going to full time basketball camp for four weeks to catch up.

Rec teams aren’t about who’s the better player.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OP here. Plenty of opportunities to sub in 3v3. My daughter sat on the bench for 5 solid minutes to start the game, and that is when I began tracking. Most coaches rotate players in and out of the game quite frequently because the games are so short. So sitting a kid for 5 minutes is really odd and rarely happens.

I've coached in this league. I know exactly how and why it is run.

I would in no way make any substitutions 5 minutes into a game of 3 v 3 basketball. Maybe at the 8 to 10 minute mark but not at the 5 minute mark. Kids aren't even winded. Constant subbing for subbing sakes is dumb...constant pulling and putting in players gives them no sense of the game flow. If I was coaching and saw you whip out your phone to start tracking your kids time, I'd probably have reacted in somewhat the same way (granted I wouldn't have noticed).

In fact, I'll tell you exactly how I'd sub in this situation with 5 kids. My 3 starters would be out there until 10 minute mark. I'd sub the two kids in and leave my best player out there. Sub again at about 15 minute mark for my best player bringing my 2nd best player back out there. At about the 5 minute mark, I'd have the starters back out there. Though depends on game situation. If it is a blow out either way, I'd just leave the kids out there. If it is closer, I'd bring kids back sooner or not just depends. I'd also watch to see how kids are playing. I have some competitive kids and if I see them fouling too much or getting outside their own head, I might sub them at that point.

I'll note you didn't respond to the other aspects of my post about height or anything like that. The fact you've made 20+ response posts tells me you are likely more invested in this than you should be.

Coach- this is a summer rec league! Sure some kids will play more than others but you are actively plotting to play your best players way more (up to about 2x more over two games), which is ridiculous.
And of course you swap in players before 10 minutes. These are kids. That’s an eternity standing around to them.
My kids played in this league and thankfully were coached much differently.

[Anonymous]

By the time kids are 11, assuming there are no rules regarding playing time, I think the goal is for players to receive relatively even playing time, but the best players would play a little more. So maybe the weakest players would play 2 quarters while the strongest would play 3. I think this is fair for a rec league.

It sounds like you’ve already decided that even playing time regardless of skill level is the only fair way in your mind, however. And that’s fine, but I don’t think most coaches would approach it that way. I think most would say everyone should get meaningful playing time, but the best players would play a little more.

I do think coaches’ kids often get more playing time, but I’ve also found that parents of kids who are good tend to coach more. So that makes sense in that regard. In your situation, the coach’s kid shouldn’t play more if they’re really as bad as you say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP isn't sure how height is relevant to basketball? LOL.

Not irrelevant to basketball -- irrelevant to the decision of how much or how little playing time I kid should get in a recreational league.

This is a little contradictory. You said that your daughter is very good. The coaches daughter is not so good.

But now you’re saying it’s a rec team and everyone should get equal time no matter the skill level. I agree with this. That’s what most rec teams do.

My daughter only started at age 11. She went into rec and got equal time even though she didn’t contribute much. She’s 12 now and 5’8” and hasn’t started puberty yet. Certain body types and height help. She’s going to full time basketball camp for four weeks to catch up.

Rec teams aren’t about who’s the better player.

So what you would suggest in this situation? The coach is giving her daughter a ton of minutes compared to some other kids. Is that OK in a rec league? How would you address this situation? Or would you just tell your daughter to grin and bear it?