Equitable access to advanced math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fcps allows HS graduation with just Algebra 2, works for those that don't get math. But using that as baseline and restricting students from taking advanced above grade math to avoid widening equity gap is where the problem is.

While increasing math choices at lower end help with graduation and discourage dropouts, I dont get the idea of restricting accelerated and advanced math choices on higher end. Why put a lid on how much a kid learns?

Because we don’t have racial and economic equity in the groups of kids taking advanced math.

Until a group of kids with desired racial mix cant be formed, no one should be allowed to take advanced math? Or make access difficult?

Yes, exactly.

California has taken this approach:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/california-math-framework-algebra/675509/

In a nutshell, San Francisco decided not to allow any student to take algebra 1 prior to 9th grade.

Equity was the cited reason for the policy.

This prohibition is an example of “closing the racial achievement gap from the top down.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fcps allows HS graduation with just Algebra 2, works for those that don't get math. But using that as baseline and restricting students from taking advanced above grade math to avoid widening equity gap is where the problem is.

FCPS does not restrict advanced Math, for equity or any other reasons. Fairfax doesn't accelerate quite as much as LoCo does but that's not a bad thing IMO.

why? shouldnt they be encouraging taking on more advanced math similar to what texas does?

LoCo sends more 6th graders to Algebra I than Fairfax does. I don't think that's a good thing. Ymmv

(Texas is not sending large numbers of 6th graders to Algebra I, fyi.)

read the texas article... it appears they are enrolling students into advanced math and giving students a choice to opt-out if they find it too challenging.

"“About three years ago, around 20 to 22 percent of a cohort was enrolling in advanced math from fifth to sixth grade,” he said. “When we went to an opt-out policy, we’ve now increased that to between 35 and 40 percent of a cohort gets automatically enrolled in advanced math.”"

so in FCPS, why not enroll all six graders in algebra 1, and give the students an opt-out to step back. Instead of showing barriers to those who want to do advanced math.

Algebra I in 6th grade isn't advanced math, it's super advanced, triple advanced math. Not appropriate for 99% of kids.

you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

That still doesn't make it the standard advanced math track anywhere in the US. It means plenty of kids can handle it, not that everyone should be pushed into it.

The standard advanced track is 7th grade math, one year before pre-Algebra. Still. Everywhere.

thousand of kids across america are completing algebra 1 in 6th grade, and no one is pushing them. Every kid always has a choice to opt down. But URM kids dont know what their choices are, unless they have an educated parent. I am an URM parent by the way, and educated. When students are restricted from enrolling in above grade math, that also restricts them from discovering their basic potential. What texas is doing is making the option available as default, which benefits the poorly informed URM kids, and letting them opt out if they find it challenging.

from article:
"We have seen our advanced math enrollment numbers for all demographics increase," McDaniel said. "But specifically with students of poverty and students of color, we have seen an increase in the number of students in advanced math tracks."

Just because you keep quoting the article saying advanced math is going up does not mean that in that Texas district they enrolled everyone is Algebra 1 in 6th grade.

I have a kid who is good at math. She's in Math 7 in 6th grade with the rest of the AAP class at our AAP center school. In her grade there is no one in Algebra 1, though she has friends who wish they were (they didn't meet the stringent FCPS qualifications). Of those, about half will go on to take Algebra 1 Honors in 7th grade and the rest will take Math 7 Honors. This is the standard US advanced math track. That's all people keep trying to tell you. And you keep saying that FCPS should enroll all 6th graders in Algebra 1 (honors or no you do not specify, but it would be a disservice to enroll a kid in a credit bearing class early if they weren't ready for honors).

Fcps doesn’t have any published criteria on how to take algebra I prior to 7th grade. It’s only available to the ones that know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

[Anonymous]

My sister lives in Texas. Advanced math in 6th and 7th leads to algebra in 8th. Calc AB is the highest class offered in her large suburban middle class high school. The average SAT score is 955.

I don't know why you guys are interpreting advanced math to earlier algebra. Texas just requires a class to be labeled as advanced. Maybe that just means a few extra worksheets and an additional topic in 6th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fcps allows HS graduation with just Algebra 2, works for those that don't get math. But using that as baseline and restricting students from taking advanced above grade math to avoid widening equity gap is where the problem is.

While increasing math choices at lower end help with graduation and discourage dropouts, I dont get the idea of restricting accelerated and advanced math choices on higher end. Why put a lid on how much a kid learns?

Because we don’t have racial and economic equity in the groups of kids taking advanced math.

Until a group of kids with desired racial mix cant be formed, no one should be allowed to take advanced math? Or make access difficult?

Yes, exactly.

California has taken this approach:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/california-math-framework-algebra/675509/

In a nutshell, San Francisco decided not to allow any student to take algebra 1 prior to 9th grade.

Equity was the cited reason for the policy.

This prohibition is an example of “closing the racial achievement gap from the top down.”

DP. It's a good thing that San Francisco did this. Initially it was widely regarded as an example of what to do - but the results were so unambiguously disastrous that it ended up being a cautionary tale and an example of what not to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Uh-oh you said the E-word. Here come the miscreants and ne'erdowells for whom that is a trigger word.

It's really just one deranged poster who has been filling up the last few pages of this thread with her nonsense.

I love that people who get called out on their racism and closed-mindedness just call those pointing it out "deranged."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My sister lives in Texas. Advanced math in 6th and 7th leads to algebra in 8th. Calc AB is the highest class offered in her large suburban middle class high school. The average SAT score is 955.

I don't know why you guys are interpreting advanced math to earlier algebra. Texas just requires a class to be labeled as advanced. Maybe that just means a few extra worksheets and an additional topic in 6th grade.

I have family members in two different cities in Texas, one has a child who graduated high school with just algebra 2, math was not their strong point, and another whose child completed algebra 1 in 6th grade. With this advanced math child, the parents did not have to run around and beg to be enrolled in algebra 1, instead the counselor presented it as a math progression path available to them to pursue, if interested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

This is where URM kids are at a significant disadvantage, with not knowing there exists an accelerated path that they can excel on. Knowing that there exists a higher level of math within their reach would inspire URM students to work harder to reach it, only if it allowed to be attained. Additionally, the recognition that mastery of current math concepts is essential for success at more advanced attainable math levels can drive students to dedicate themselves more fully to their current learning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

Fair point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

This is where URM kids are at a significant disadvantage, with not knowing there exists an accelerated path that they can excel on. Knowing that there exists a higher level of math within their reach would inspire URM students to work harder to reach it, only if it allowed to be attained. Additionally, the recognition that mastery of current math concepts is essential for success at more advanced attainable math levels can drive students to dedicate themselves more fully to their current learning.

There are about 30 kids a year who take Algebra 1 in 6th grade in FCPS. This is not something that is being promoted at higher SES schools and not done elsewhere, it is a rare event.

The vast majority of URM families that are at Title 1 schools or near Title 1 schools are not sending their kids to free tutoring or summer programs because the parents are not engaged or don’t see the need, what makes you think that placing those kids in Algebra 1 in 6th grade is a good idea? The parents are not likely to opt the kids out because they don’t bother to opt in to programs. So kids are going to be in a class that is not appropriate for 99% of the kids in the County.

About 1,200 7th graders take Algebra 1 in 7th grade, still a minority of the population. We have heard from Teachers at schools like Poe that they place 7th graders with higher test scores, but under the bench mark for Algebra 1 in 7th grade, into the class and that those kids struggle.

It is not that FCPS is not trying to get kids into Algebra 1 H in 7th grade but that the kids are not ready for it. The goal seems to be more URM being ready for Algebra 1 in 8th grade, which seems reasonable to me because that is when most kids in FCPS are taking Algebra 1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

Fair point.

No it's not. The criteria to take Algebra in 6th grade isn't hidden. It's very high and the class is inappropriate for the vast majority of students, whether or not they are URM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

This is where URM kids are at a significant disadvantage, with not knowing there exists an accelerated path that they can excel on. Knowing that there exists a higher level of math within their reach would inspire URM students to work harder to reach it, only if it allowed to be attained. Additionally, the recognition that mastery of current math concepts is essential for success at more advanced attainable math levels can drive students to dedicate themselves more fully to their current learning.

There are about 30 kids a year who take Algebra 1 in 6th grade in FCPS. This is not something that is being promoted at higher SES schools and not done elsewhere, it is a rare event.

The vast majority of URM families that are at Title 1 schools or near Title 1 schools are not sending their kids to free tutoring or summer programs because the parents are not engaged or don’t see the need, what makes you think that placing those kids in Algebra 1 in 6th grade is a good idea? The parents are not likely to opt the kids out because they don’t bother to opt in to programs. So kids are going to be in a class that is not appropriate for 99% of the kids in the County.

About 1,200 7th graders take Algebra 1 in 7th grade, still a minority of the population. We have heard from Teachers at schools like Poe that they place 7th graders with higher test scores, but under the bench mark for Algebra 1 in 7th grade, into the class and that those kids struggle.

It is not that FCPS is not trying to get kids into Algebra 1 H in 7th grade but that the kids are not ready for it. The goal seems to be more URM being ready for Algebra 1 in 8th grade, which seems reasonable to me because that is when most kids in FCPS are taking Algebra 1.

At lake braddock, URM kids are much more capable that what they are typically suggested to enroll in. Awareness of possible math acceleration path is severely limited.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

Fair point.

No it's not. The criteria to take Algebra in 6th grade isn't hidden. It's very high and the class is inappropriate for the vast majority of students, whether or not they are URM.

according to who?