Equitable access to advanced math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We need more equitable breeding. Anyone who can’t score a 500 on the math SAT (i.e. half the country) should have voluntary, free access to embryo selection for cognitive ability.

That won't work. Because you also need Math-literate parents who can teach at home. So, any kid that has the Math cognitive gene should also be fostered by parents who are able to teach Math.

In other words, America should be only for the intelligent and rich. We should do reverse immigration and send the poor and stupid to other poor countries.

Or, only give breeding licenses to people who can score well in SAT or another exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: So many trolls here, getting hard to keep track of. Might as well assign names

Biggest troll of them all is the Test Buying troll, who's scared to name the fictional seller. Oh well, trolls have their own fears

I maybe posted on the wrong thread, but IIRC it was discussed by students on a TJ facebook page a few years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just found out my 99th percentile math kid opted out of being on the track for Geometry in 8th. I'm pissed he was allowed to make that decision without me knowing about it.

I'm pretty sure all rising 7th graders are placed in Math 7 or Math 7 Honors until the SOL scores are back. If he passes advanced on the SOL he can take Algebra in 7th and Geometry in 8th and you'll have to sign off on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: So many trolls here, getting hard to keep track of. Might as well assign names

Biggest troll of them all is the Test Buying troll, who's scared to name the fictional seller. Oh well, trolls have their own fears

I maybe posted on the wrong thread, but IIRC it was discussed by students on a TJ facebook page a few years ago.

Curie took out a full page ad even to showcase how a third of TJ's entering class were their clients. Turns out they had been building a question bank by debriefing students for years. Many reported having seen the same questions at the prep center even. I think it was even in the paper back then. Anyway, this is old news, and I'm glad they finally settled on a fair process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: So many trolls here, getting hard to keep track of. Might as well assign names

Biggest troll of them all is the Test Buying troll, who's scared to name the fictional seller. Oh well, trolls have their own fears

I maybe posted on the wrong thread, but IIRC it was discussed by students on a TJ facebook page a few years ago.

Curie took out a full page ad even to showcase how a third of TJ's entering class were their clients. Turns out they had been building a question bank by debriefing students for years. Many reported having seen the same questions at the prep center even. I think it was even in the paper back then. Anyway, this is old news, and I'm glad they finally settled on a fair process.

The individual behind these posts consistently shares this fictitious tale about Curie, seemingly intending to garner negative attention. However, ironically, their efforts seem to have the unintended consequence of actually directing more customers towards Curie rather than driving them away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The basic assumption of the woke behind VMPI is that blacks and Hispanics are not capable of learning of advanced math.

Nothing racist in that.

That’s not the assumption at all.

Equity programs are trying to get **more** kids in advanced/accelerated classes.

This is like saying you're reversing global warming by changing the labels on the thermometers.

If a student's gen ed class suddenly gets falsely labelled "accelerated", it won't help them. But if a student's accelerated class becomes a gen ed class falsely labelled as "accelerated", it will hurt them.

So this helps no one except admin who get to pay themselves on the back for removing disparities (curing global warming).

No, that wasn’t what was being proposed for VA. Pure fiction.

“Equity” programs are trying to get MORE kids in advanced/accelerated classes.

https://e3alliance.org/2022/08/29/call-for-advanced-math-policy-during-texas-88th-legislature/
"E3 Alliance research indicates that taking more advanced math courses in high school highly correlates with students enrolling in a higher education institution, persisting in their studies, and ultimately completing a postsecondary credential"

"we believe the time is now to amplify all students across the state, scaling these tested and refined practices into state policy during the upcoming Texas 88th Legislative Session."

"Our state-level policy priorities include:
*Opt-Out Policy for high-performing students enrolling in accelerated math starting in 6th grade.
*Math All Four Years for high school students."

California used the same language, but the reality was of course very different. These groups have proven their dishonesty time and time again. Spoiler alert: if it was possible to magically make every middle school class more rigorous with no drawbacks, teachers would have done so already.

Agree with you completely. This “equity math” approach failed in California and it failed when tried in MoCo.

The person you are responding to posted the same chart about “E3” or “Equity Cubed” math, which Fairfax County Public Schools are trying to use to eliminate the AAP program.

Placing every child in AAP-level math sounds great, and E3 or “equity cubed” essentially does that.

E3 fits the title of this thread precisely, as it claims to be “equitable access to advanced math.”

However, when every child is placed in AAP-level math through this new E3 program, there is no more AAP.

And accelerated-pace learning under E3? The general-education kids will not learn at the accelerated pace used in AAP, so the whole class will have to slow down to the level appropriate for the slowest learners. Acceleration will be lost, and the kids who would previously have been in AAP will be bored, and likely lose interest in learning.

Sure - E3 claims to have anticipated advanced learners needing more/faster pace. E3 says they plan for occasional “pull outs” to give advanced learned a little extra work once in a while.

Pull-outs don’t work the way a dedicated AAP class works. Advanced learners absolutely will get far less under E3.

If your school adopts E3, it will be best for your child to switch to private school.

What a load of crap.

Fiction for an election year.

According to you previously in this thread, the equity plans would have to be stopped by elected officials overruling what the equity folks want to do.

That was an extreme hypothetical with other conditions that you failed to include.

Sure, sure.

You sound just like all the Lucy Calkins sycophants. These Lucy Calkins ruined the education of millions of American schoolchildren, but all along kept shrieking “the data! the science!” even though it was all falsehoods, intellectual dishonesty, and ineffectiveness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: So many trolls here, getting hard to keep track of. Might as well assign names

Biggest troll of them all is the Test Buying troll, who's scared to name the fictional seller. Oh well, trolls have their own fears

I maybe posted on the wrong thread, but IIRC it was discussed by students on a TJ facebook page a few years ago.

Curie took out a full page ad even to showcase how a third of TJ's entering class were their clients. Turns out they had been building a question bank by debriefing students for years. Many reported having seen the same questions at the prep center even. I think it was even in the paper back then. Anyway, this is old news, and I'm glad they finally settled on a fair process.

The individual behind these posts consistently shares this fictitious tale about Curie, seemingly intending to garner negative attention. However, ironically, their efforts seem to have the unintended consequence of actually directing more customers towards Curie rather than driving them away.

We are in IT field, and recently moved from New Jersey, and have kid starting in 6th grade this fall. Can someone please tell me what Curie is all about in detail? Is it similar to Kumon?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: So many trolls here, getting hard to keep track of. Might as well assign names

Biggest troll of them all is the Test Buying troll, who's scared to name the fictional seller. Oh well, trolls have their own fears

I maybe posted on the wrong thread, but IIRC it was discussed by students on a TJ facebook page a few years ago.

Curie took out a full page ad even to showcase how a third of TJ's entering class were their clients. Turns out they had been building a question bank by debriefing students for years. Many reported having seen the same questions at the prep center even. I think it was even in the paper back then. Anyway, this is old news, and I'm glad they finally settled on a fair process.

The individual behind these posts consistently shares this fictitious tale about Curie, seemingly intending to garner negative attention. However, ironically, their efforts seem to have the unintended consequence of actually directing more customers towards Curie rather than driving them away.

We are in IT field, and recently moved from New Jersey, and have kid starting in 6th grade this fall. Can someone please tell me what Curie is all about in detail? Is it similar to Kumon?

More advanced than Kimon. I saw a kid taking geometry in 8th and his Curie classes were trigonometry. They also have a prep class for TJ/AOT/AES that helps with essay writing and the other tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: So many trolls here, getting hard to keep track of. Might as well assign names

Biggest troll of them all is the Test Buying troll, who's scared to name the fictional seller. Oh well, trolls have their own fears

I maybe posted on the wrong thread, but IIRC it was discussed by students on a TJ facebook page a few years ago.

Curie took out a full page ad even to showcase how a third of TJ's entering class were their clients. Turns out they had been building a question bank by debriefing students for years. Many reported having seen the same questions at the prep center even. I think it was even in the paper back then. Anyway, this is old news, and I'm glad they finally settled on a fair process.

The individual behind these posts consistently shares this fictitious tale about Curie, seemingly intending to garner negative attention. However, ironically, their efforts seem to have the unintended consequence of actually directing more customers towards Curie rather than driving them away.

We are in IT field, and recently moved from New Jersey, and have kid starting in 6th grade this fall. Can someone please tell me what Curie is all about in detail? Is it similar to Kumon?

Kumon is more for drilling basic arithmetic, Curie is for advanced math/English/science two grades or so ahead (at least in their signature program: https://curielearning.com/middle-program-7-8, I think they also have summer STEM stuff). There's also RSM and AoPS, but they focus on math. AoPS also has English and science, but they're famous for their math which is the most rigorous out of the 4.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: So many trolls here, getting hard to keep track of. Might as well assign names

Biggest troll of them all is the Test Buying troll, who's scared to name the fictional seller. Oh well, trolls have their own fears

I maybe posted on the wrong thread, but IIRC it was discussed by students on a TJ facebook page a few years ago.

Curie took out a full page ad even to showcase how a third of TJ's entering class were their clients. Turns out they had been building a question bank by debriefing students for years. Many reported having seen the same questions at the prep center even. I think it was even in the paper back then. Anyway, this is old news, and I'm glad they finally settled on a fair process.

The individual behind these posts consistently shares this fictitious tale about Curie, seemingly intending to garner negative attention. However, ironically, their efforts seem to have the unintended consequence of actually directing more customers towards Curie rather than driving them away.

We are in IT field, and recently moved from New Jersey, and have kid starting in 6th grade this fall. Can someone please tell me what Curie is all about in detail? Is it similar to Kumon?

Kumon is more for drilling basic arithmetic, Curie is for advanced math/English/science two grades or so ahead (at least in their signature program: https://curielearning.com/middle-program-7-8, I think they also have summer STEM stuff). There's also RSM and AoPS, but they focus on math. AoPS also has English and science, but they're famous for their math which is the most rigorous out of the 4.

We looked into AoPS and RSM, and went with Curie because it had all three subjects, and it was much cheaper than other two. Yeah, it is two years ahead but with a like-minded peer group and parental support student finds it manageable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:URM kids need algebra1 in 6th grade more than anyone else, ensuring URMs are more than likely to enter and succeed in engineering and science majors. There is solid proof that algebra1 in 6th ensures student takes atleast two years of calculus in high school itself.

Equity activists, especially the non-URM foxes, feel insecure letting URMs learning more math than they do.

1. you need algebra by 7th to take 2 years of calculus in HS - and you could actually do it with algebra in 8th if you double up in HS.

2. you don't need 2 years of calculus in HS to enter and succeed in engineering/science majors.

-engineer

And this is why parents are absolutely nuts, pushing for early math that doesn't necessarily matter based on made up assumptions, and potentially at the expense of kids who might get by well enough or "mimic " the teacher's demonstrated steps, but end up lacking in higher level understanding in the more complex classes down the road.

https://www.mathnasium.com/math-centers/littleton/news/algebra-too-soon-1816080540

If my kid needs more acceleration, I'm going to push for it. It's not my problem or my fault that other parents will then try to push their unqualified kids into early Algebra. It's not my kid's responsibility to be held back for the benefit of others. Math is the one subject where there's no benefit and potentially some down side to having a kid sit in a classroom where they've already mastered the material. There are a lot of diagnostics out there showing exactly which math instructional level is appropriate for any kid. It's not exactly rocket science to follow the levels given in the diagnostics.

If the goal is getting more URM or economically disadvantaged kids into 7th grade Algebra, then FCPS is handling elementary school math completely wrong. In FCPS with AAP, the kids effectively are only compressing 8 years of math into 7 years, which isn't much acceleration at all. Then, they're expected to skip 8th grade math to do Algebra in 7th. It would make more sense for bright kids to skip levels or compress levels much earlier if they've already mastered the material, and then spend more time with pre-algebra

But this requires parental support which not all are fortunate to have.

It takes less parental support to compress K-5th grade math than it does to skip pre-algebra. While I'm not a fan of the edu-tainment math apps in general, they could be used to let bright, disadvantaged kids follow a self-paced curriculum rather than be held back by everyone else. After a point, these kids could be folded back into a higher grade level class. Alternatively, at the end of each year, they could take the kids who earn high scores on the end-of year test and then give them the end-of-year test for the following grade. Any kids who earn high scores for that test should be given the option to skip a year of math. Either way, bright URMs and FARMS kids who belong on an Algebra in 7th path would likely have better outcomes if they skipped or compressed a level earlier, but essentially took M7H in 6th grade, rather than skipping M7H altogether.

DC is taking M7H in 6th grade

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:URM kids need algebra1 in 6th grade more than anyone else, ensuring URMs are more than likely to enter and succeed in engineering and science majors. There is solid proof that algebra1 in 6th ensures student takes atleast two years of calculus in high school itself.

Equity activists, especially the non-URM foxes, feel insecure letting URMs learning more math than they do.

1. you need algebra by 7th to take 2 years of calculus in HS - and you could actually do it with algebra in 8th if you double up in HS.

2. you don't need 2 years of calculus in HS to enter and succeed in engineering/science majors.

-engineer

And this is why parents are absolutely nuts, pushing for early math that doesn't necessarily matter based on made up assumptions, and potentially at the expense of kids who might get by well enough or "mimic " the teacher's demonstrated steps, but end up lacking in higher level understanding in the more complex classes down the road.

https://www.mathnasium.com/math-centers/littleton/news/algebra-too-soon-1816080540

If my kid needs more acceleration, I'm going to push for it. It's not my problem or my fault that other parents will then try to push their unqualified kids into early Algebra. It's not my kid's responsibility to be held back for the benefit of others. Math is the one subject where there's no benefit and potentially some down side to having a kid sit in a classroom where they've already mastered the material. There are a lot of diagnostics out there showing exactly which math instructional level is appropriate for any kid. It's not exactly rocket science to follow the levels given in the diagnostics.

If the goal is getting more URM or economically disadvantaged kids into 7th grade Algebra, then FCPS is handling elementary school math completely wrong. In FCPS with AAP, the kids effectively are only compressing 8 years of math into 7 years, which isn't much acceleration at all. Then, they're expected to skip 8th grade math to do Algebra in 7th. It would make more sense for bright kids to skip levels or compress levels much earlier if they've already mastered the material, and then spend more time with pre-algebra

But this requires parental support which not all are fortunate to have.

It takes less parental support to compress K-5th grade math than it does to skip pre-algebra. While I'm not a fan of the edu-tainment math apps in general, they could be used to let bright, disadvantaged kids follow a self-paced curriculum rather than be held back by everyone else. After a point, these kids could be folded back into a higher grade level class. Alternatively, at the end of each year, they could take the kids who earn high scores on the end-of year test and then give them the end-of-year test for the following grade. Any kids who earn high scores for that test should be given the option to skip a year of math. Either way, bright URMs and FARMS kids who belong on an Algebra in 7th path would likely have better outcomes if they skipped or compressed a level earlier, but essentially took M7H in 6th grade, rather than skipping M7H altogether.

DC is taking M7H in 6th grade

Really? Where and how? The only path I know of for this to happen is if a 5th grader accelerated into 6th grade AAP math fails to meet the Algebra benchmarks.

[Anonymous]

I, for one, am very concerned about this new law and the concern is that most people don't really understand STAAR scores and how low Texas is setting the bar for students to be enrolled in the advanced math. The law calls for any student scoring in the 60th percentile on Grade 5 Math STAAR. Students in Texas are not doing well on their STAAR tests - that is the 1st problem. IN order to score in the 60th percentile students ONLY have to get 55% of the questions/material/skills correct on the STAAR. Does anyone on these posts think that learning and knowing only 55% of the grade level material means that you are ready to be in an accelerated program. More students will struggle and just get pushed along and these students will not go on to take advanced math - they will not even score "college ready". Texas is really good about not being clear on what the results on STAAR actually mean. There are so many scale scores it is confusing to most people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think they are mixing up cause and effect.

Kids who do higher level math are more likely to graduate from college because they are better at school. The math didn’t make them more likely to graduate.

We would better serve kids if we focused on what skills kids actually need to obtain jobs that provide a living wage.

Yes, nevermind that wealthy schools have far more opportunities for enrichment and acceleration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I, for one, am very concerned about this new law and the concern is that most people don't really understand STAAR scores and how low Texas is setting the bar for students to be enrolled in the advanced math. The law calls for any student scoring in the 60th percentile on Grade 5 Math STAAR. Students in Texas are not doing well on their STAAR tests - that is the 1st problem. IN order to score in the 60th percentile students ONLY have to get 55% of the questions/material/skills correct on the STAAR. Does anyone on these posts think that learning and knowing only 55% of the grade level material means that you are ready to be in an accelerated program. More students will struggle and just get pushed along and these students will not go on to take advanced math - they will not even score "college ready". Texas is really good about not being clear on what the results on STAAR actually mean. There are so many scale scores it is confusing to most people.

That doesn't really pertain to 99% of the people on this board who are in the Washington DC/Maryland/Northern Virginia area. Most of the conversation in this topic has been focused on Fairfax County's math advancement path.