If you're of Irish Protestant ancestry, do you consider yourself Irish American?

[Anonymous]

I'm surprised that so many seem to think that there were only 2 ethnic groups in Ireland: Catholic and Ulster Scots.

You're missing the Protestant Ascendancy--the rich folks who were members of the Church of Ireland--Church of England before Irish independence. They looked down at the Presbyterian Scots almost as much as they looked down on the Irish.

Even more surprisingly to us now, one of the most famous rebellions in Irish history occurred in 1798 when Scots Irish, fed up with the way the Ascendancy folks treated them attempted to unite with Irish Catholics to overthrown the Ascendency. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rebellion_of_1798

There are 2 kinds of Scots Irish. One group really is Scottish or Northern English. They come largely from the Ulster Plantation in Northern Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster They were brought to Ireland to dilute the power of the Irish clans.

The other group wasn't really Scottish at all. When the US imposed ethnic quotas on immigration, the Irish quota was quickly used up. So Scots Irish--the genuine article--would list their ethnicity as Scottish rather than Irish because it made it easier to get into the US. Other Irish Protestants saw this and they too started calling themselves Scots to get into the US. That was fine with many American immigration officials because the ethnic quotas had been introduced in large part to limit the number of "Papist" immigrants.

Even in Ireland itself, Protestants started spelling their names differently to signal they weren't Catholic. So you have names like Kelly/Kelley, Daily/Dailey, etc. with the added E signaling the family was Protestant.

One thing that's interesting is that the different DNA testing companies define these ethnic groups differently. The breakdown among those with "Irish" ancestry among the 3 groups is handled differently by the different companies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:38 million Americans are of Irish ancestry and most are Protestant not Catholic (sometimes they're called Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish). But Irish American organizations, community groups etc. are all pretty much Catholic.

I am an American with no hyphens

[Anonymous]

At one point does it become statistically meaningless? Hypothetically let's say some white Southerner is 1/256 Swiss-German or something and 90% of their lineage is English.

Is that person an English-German-American or basically an English American. I'd say the latter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm surprised that so many seem to think that there were only 2 ethnic groups in Ireland: Catholic and Ulster Scots.

You're missing the Protestant Ascendancy--the rich folks who were members of the Church of Ireland--Church of England before Irish independence. They looked down at the Presbyterian Scots almost as much as they looked down on the Irish.

Even more surprisingly to us now, one of the most famous rebellions in Irish history occurred in 1798 when Scots Irish, fed up with the way the Ascendancy folks treated them attempted to unite with Irish Catholics to overthrown the Ascendency. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rebellion_of_1798

There are 2 kinds of Scots Irish. One group really is Scottish or Northern English. They come largely from the Ulster Plantation in Northern Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster They were brought to Ireland to dilute the power of the Irish clans.

The other group wasn't really Scottish at all. When the US imposed ethnic quotas on immigration, the Irish quota was quickly used up. So Scots Irish--the genuine article--would list their ethnicity as Scottish rather than Irish because it made it easier to get into the US. Other Irish Protestants saw this and they too started calling themselves Scots to get into the US. That was fine with many American immigration officials because the ethnic quotas had been introduced in large part to limit the number of "Papist" immigrants.

Even in Ireland itself, Protestants started spelling their names differently to signal they weren't Catholic. So you have names like Kelly/Kelley, Daily/Dailey, etc. with the added E signaling the family was Protestant.

One thing that's interesting is that the different DNA testing companies define these ethnic groups differently. The breakdown among those with "Irish" ancestry among the 3 groups is handled differently by the different companies.

Right, the Scots-Irish "planters" weren't all ethnically Scottish, a lot were English. But somehow the name stuck.

An interesting point about the immigration quota. I wasn't aware of that. Not sure how that would have worked though given that the quotas were by country and not by ethnic group. An ethnic German who ended up in Poland after WWI I believe would have faced the (much steeper) Polish quota.

[Anonymous]

No, but my protestant Irish ancestors immigrated here in the 17th century to flee the Catholics. I think of myself as American.

[Anonymous]

There's no meaningful distinction between Scots Irish Americans and English Americans. It's not like in South Carolina you'll find an Scots Irish side of town, a Scots Irish lobby etc. Almost all people with Scots Irish ancestry also have English ancestry.

[Anonymous]

I’m an Irish citizen since my mom was born there. Never have I considered myself to be Irish american.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's no meaningful distinction between Scots Irish Americans and English Americans. It's not like in South Carolina you'll find an Scots Irish side of town, a Scots Irish lobby etc. Almost all people with Scots Irish ancestry also have English ancestry.

And just to add no cultural distinctions either. It's not like Scots-Irish have traditions that are explicitly recognized as Scots-Irish. It's not like there's a certain holiday
that the Scots-Irish celebrate while the English families explain to their children who feel left out "we're an English family, not a Scots-Irish family."

There's a weird myth though that upper class Southern patricians are of English ancestry while rural Southern yokels are Scots-Irish though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh god, people who are hung up on their Irish ancestry are the most annoying ethnic group in America. A typical conversation with them:

Them: “I’m Irish.”
Me: “oh, cool. You don’t have an accent. When did you come over?”

Them: “I was born here.”
Me: “oh. When did your parents emigrate?”

Them: “well, actually they were born here, too.”
Me: “oh. So, your grandparents came over from Ireland?”

Them: “….no.”
Me: “ah.”

You’re an idiot. There is a difference between Irish ethnicity and nationality. I suppose you only consider Kurds as either Turks or Iraqis. The US is full of different from different ethnicities. Do you deny descendants of American slaves claims to Africa? How about Poles who retained their Polish identity when the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was wiped off the map of Europe for 125 years?

[Anonymous]

What’s problematic is that — still — part of the Irish (Catholic) identity is the experience of oppression by the British. It may be stronger for Irish-Americans than Irish because so many of our ancestors were driven out by the British. And Scots-Irish are seen as on the other side of that.

My great grandfather was burned in Ireland — his wife was born here but her parents were Irish. When my grandmother married, it was sort of a big deal that she married a man of Scottish extraction (only after he converted). Interestingly he always told everyone his family was Scottish. When I researched, they were actually Scots-Irish … but I think that would have been viewed poorly in their Irish community so they identified as Scottish Presbyterians.
Even though I am part Scots-Irish by heritage, I don’t really consider them “real Irish.” But they didn’t really consider themselves that either. I think in much of the world people identified more by religion ethnicity than nations/geography until at least the First World War. My husband’s family is Jewish and they didn’t even know which country their family came from. And I think that’s also true of Greeks from Asia Minor or Albanians from Serbia, etc,.—the religion and ethnicity mattered more than the national borders until sometime in the 20th century.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What’s problematic is that — still — part of the Irish (Catholic) identity is the experience of oppression by the British. It may be stronger for Irish-Americans than Irish because so many of our ancestors were driven out by the British. And Scots-Irish are seen as on the other side of that.

My great grandfather was burned in Ireland — his wife was born here but her parents were Irish. When my grandmother married, it was sort of a big deal that she married a man of Scottish extraction (only after he converted). Interestingly he always told everyone his family was Scottish. When I researched, they were actually Scots-Irish … but I think that would have been viewed poorly in their Irish community so they identified as Scottish Presbyterians.
Even though I am part Scots-Irish by heritage, I don’t really consider them “real Irish.” But they didn’t really consider themselves that either. I think in much of the world people identified more by religion ethnicity than nations/geography until at least the First World War. My husband’s family is Jewish and they didn’t even know which country their family came from. And I think that’s also true of Greeks from Asia Minor or Albanians from Serbia, etc,.—the religion and ethnicity mattered more than the national borders until sometime in the 20th century.

Look into the Spring of Nations. Most people associated more locally before than. Nationality was associated with nobles and royals. The monarch equaled the nation, hence the royal We. The common people were subjects not citizens. You can read memoirs of many people suddenly recognizing an ethnicity post Speing of Nations. Before then they didn’t think of themselves as Germans or Poles per se. (Situations varied to greater and lesser degrees in different parts of Europe.)

A similar phenomenon occurred here on a bigger scale with people identifying more with their state than as Amedican. So you’d have people here identying more as being Pennysylvanian or Tennessean than American. So some of you with longer family histories in this country need to understand that your early Ancestors likely didn’t identify as Americans either but rather, eg, Virginians.

Ultimately, it is a matter of personal identity for most of us that is separate from our citizenship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's no meaningful distinction between Scots Irish Americans and English Americans. It's not like in South Carolina you'll find an Scots Irish side of town, a Scots Irish lobby etc. Almost all people with Scots Irish ancestry also have English ancestry.

And just to add no cultural distinctions either. It's not like Scots-Irish have traditions that are explicitly recognized as Scots-Irish. It's not like there's a certain holiday
that the Scots-Irish celebrate while the English families explain to their children who feel left out "we're an English family, not a Scots-Irish family."

There's a weird myth though that upper class Southern patricians are of English ancestry while rural Southern yokels are Scots-Irish though.

What about the Orange parades?
—descendant of both Orangemen and Irish Catholics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's no meaningful distinction between Scots Irish Americans and English Americans. It's not like in South Carolina you'll find an Scots Irish side of town, a Scots Irish lobby etc. Almost all people with Scots Irish ancestry also have English ancestry.

And just to add no cultural distinctions either. It's not like Scots-Irish have traditions that are explicitly recognized as Scots-Irish. It's not like there's a certain holiday
that the Scots-Irish celebrate while the English families explain to their children who feel left out "we're an English family, not a Scots-Irish family."

There's a weird myth though that upper class Southern patricians are of English ancestry while rural Southern yokels are Scots-Irish though.

What about the Orange parades?
—descendant of both Orangemen and Irish Catholics

And like, toaster location is CRITICAL distinction.

[Anonymous]

Look, the reality is Irish Catholic immigrants were generally poor and grouped together in northeastern cities where they helped each other get along. They weren’t welcome, they weren’t wanted, and they knew that. In truth, most of them didn’t want to leave Ireland, but had no choice due to either war or economics or the great hunger.
That sort of vibe tends to lead to an insular community that seeks comfort in its identity and passes that down through generations. This is far from the only community in America where you can see this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh god, people who are hung up on their Irish ancestry are the most annoying ethnic group in America. A typical conversation with them:

Them: “I’m Irish.”
Me: “oh, cool. You don’t have an accent. When did you come over?”

Them: “I was born here.”
Me: “oh. When did your parents emigrate?”

Them: “well, actually they were born here, too.”
Me: “oh. So, your grandparents came over from Ireland?”

Them: “….no.”
Me: “ah.”

You’re an idiot. There is a difference between Irish ethnicity and nationality. I suppose you only consider Kurds as either Turks or Iraqis. The US is full of different from different ethnicities. Do you deny descendants of American slaves claims to Africa? How about Poles who retained their Polish identity when the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was wiped off the map of Europe for 125 years?

Are you saying an American whose great grandparents were born in Ireland and who says they are Irish is actually ethnically Irish?

African-Americans are racially different. They have African genes. I doubt they claim to be ethnically African though.