AP physics without Algebra 2

[Anonymous]

The point that some have lost is that we don’t recommend taking AP Physics 1 with Alg2. You’ve heard from teachers, students at various programs, been given the pass rate of the AP Physic 1 exam, shown sample problems. Do with that as you wish but you if you go down this path, you can’t say you weren’t warned.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My current 9th grader, currently taking honors geometry and honors biology, wants to take AP Physics next year while also taking Algebra 2, because "all" of their friends will be in AP physics in 10th. My experience with my older kids is that they and most of their MoCo peers took chemistry in 10th grade, regardless of which science they'd had in 9th (i.e. regardless of whether they were on the faster or slower math track). (Clearly none of them was in a STEM magnet program.) Does anyone know if AP physics requires the completion of Algebra 2, or if it would at least be a good idea to have this math under their belt? DC is a pretty strong math and science student with a scientist parent who can help at home, but I'm not sure this is such a good plan. Also considering taking Alg2 over the summer, which DC's counselor has okayed.

At Blair, that's the norm. Kids who are currently taking A2 and are strong at math are recommended for AP Physics in 9th.

No, that’s not the norm. Who would recommend those kids to take AP physics, the high school counselor, the tiger parents?

Do those strong students also take physics C? If they don’t, what’s the point of taking the less math intensive and less rigorous physics class? If they do, why take three years of physics with so much overlap?

No matter how you look at it, AP physics 1&2 make very little sense for a strong math student, it’s generally geared towards non STEM majors. It makes even less sense to take it concurent with algebra 2, while not having the required foundation for the class.

Who would recommend AP Physics 1 for ninth graders taking Algebra 2, you ask? Blair administration, for one, until very recently. There have been discussions in DCUM on this very madness:

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1034358.page#21918207
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/75/1035921.page#22014688

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/345/850028.page#16446296
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/375/850028.page#16450565


https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/904189.page

And Wheaton still does it; see "Engineering Application Program Course Sequence" table at

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/wheatonhs/academies/Applicationprograms/

(Don't be misled by the math course name (Magnet precalculus) that ninth graders are placed in. It is a combined Algebra 2/precalculus course over two years - ninth and tenth grades, intended for students that did Geometry in eighth grade. So they are really doing Algebra 2 at the same time as AP Physics 1. They might as well call Magnet Precalc A/B as Magnet Algebra 2 A/B.)

-- DP

I don’t see a good argument for for that sequence, note that they recommend physics 1, but not physics 2, and then physics c optional as a senior.

Of course it depends on the student and intended major, but I’d think that a well rounded high school science education would include APs in physics, chemistry and biology. The forth year would be either another (post) AP or an introductory (honors) high school course.

Can you give a good argument on why it’s worth doing physics 1, that’s not essentially “someone recommended it”? As I said earlier it’s not as riguros as physics c, it takes too much time, and there’s too much overlap between the two.

On top of it, if taken concurrently with algebra 2 means there’s a very weak foundation in trigonometry for circular motion, oscillations and waves, as well as matrices for vector analysis (momentum, forces). In addition you’d be taking a no calculus based class so the treatment of energy and dynamics will be taught at a very simplistic level.

It's intro (honors / "elective" AP) conceptual class, before advanced technical class ("major-eligible" AP).
Same sequence as in chemistry, biology, CS, Spanish...

AP Physics C is usually only Mech, not also E&M. So it matches Physics 1.

I suppose you could take AP physics early if the goal is to rack up as many APs as possible, but at the same time there’s an opportunity cost associated with it plus all the downsides mentioned in this thread and the threads linked above. Physics C is one semester mechanics and the other electromagnetism usually both are taken.

There’s a deep misunderstanding on what a college level physics class is supposed to teach. The idea is that students have the intellectual maturity to understand a mathematical description if the physical phenomena from first principles, ie Newtons laws. It’s a given that it requires advanced math like calculus, vectors (linear algebra), and trigonometry. Absent that foundation Physics 1 is a collection of factoids with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas that have a limited educational value. Many would argue that “algebra based physics” is not even a college level class, because of the above reasons. Physics 1&2 won’t satisfy major requisite any stem major, so it’s more like chasing the rigorous coursework label.

If the student has a real interest in physics, I think they’d be much better served through dual enrollment to follow up the math sequence up to differential equations and the typical three semesters of real college physics.

Have you looked at the actual AP questions for AP Physics 1? They are very far from plug and chug. There is a reason it has such a low pass rate. That being said, college physics is primarily with calculus although non stem majors may do it without calculus. You can actually apply to med school with physics with algebra. Physics with calculus is not essential for med school applications.

Yes I did look at the college board website and I do have a degree in physics. Some observations. For a general physics class, there’s way too much emphasis on mechanics, which should account for maybe 20% of a general physics class. Going by the suggested pathway of AP physics 1 and one semester of AP physics C means that mechanics is the only physics those students will encounter which is counterproductive to say the least.

The AP questions are not difficult, but they seem that way because there are too many conceptual gaps. For example there are no differential equations for the laws of motion so you’re supposed to solve the question through some other means like conservation of energy or momentum. It’s fine for an educational example but with a solid foundation in physics you’d be able to see how different approaches would work equally well for the same problem.

The low pass rate for AP physics 1 is a combination of poor curriculum, usually taught poorly to students that self select in the lower tier since strong students take AP physics C.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My current 9th grader, currently taking honors geometry and honors biology, wants to take AP Physics next year while also taking Algebra 2, because "all" of their friends will be in AP physics in 10th. My experience with my older kids is that they and most of their MoCo peers took chemistry in 10th grade, regardless of which science they'd had in 9th (i.e. regardless of whether they were on the faster or slower math track). (Clearly none of them was in a STEM magnet program.) Does anyone know if AP physics requires the completion of Algebra 2, or if it would at least be a good idea to have this math under their belt? DC is a pretty strong math and science student with a scientist parent who can help at home, but I'm not sure this is such a good plan. Also considering taking Alg2 over the summer, which DC's counselor has okayed.

At Blair, that's the norm. Kids who are currently taking A2 and are strong at math are recommended for AP Physics in 9th.

No, that’s not the norm. Who would recommend those kids to take AP physics, the high school counselor, the tiger parents?

Do those strong students also take physics C? If they don’t, what’s the point of taking the less math intensive and less rigorous physics class? If they do, why take three years of physics with so much overlap?

No matter how you look at it, AP physics 1&2 make very little sense for a strong math student, it’s generally geared towards non STEM majors. It makes even less sense to take it concurent with algebra 2, while not having the required foundation for the class.

Who would recommend AP Physics 1 for ninth graders taking Algebra 2, you ask? Blair administration, for one, until very recently. There have been discussions in DCUM on this very madness:

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1034358.page#21918207
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/75/1035921.page#22014688

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/345/850028.page#16446296
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/375/850028.page#16450565


https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/904189.page

And Wheaton still does it; see "Engineering Application Program Course Sequence" table at

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/wheatonhs/academies/Applicationprograms/

(Don't be misled by the math course name (Magnet precalculus) that ninth graders are placed in. It is a combined Algebra 2/precalculus course over two years - ninth and tenth grades, intended for students that did Geometry in eighth grade. So they are really doing Algebra 2 at the same time as AP Physics 1. They might as well call Magnet Precalc A/B as Magnet Algebra 2 A/B.)

-- DP

I don’t see a good argument for for that sequence, note that they recommend physics 1, but not physics 2, and then physics c optional as a senior.

Of course it depends on the student and intended major, but I’d think that a well rounded high school science education would include APs in physics, chemistry and biology. The forth year would be either another (post) AP or an introductory (honors) high school course.

Can you give a good argument on why it’s worth doing physics 1, that’s not essentially “someone recommended it”? As I said earlier it’s not as riguros as physics c, it takes too much time, and there’s too much overlap between the two.

On top of it, if taken concurrently with algebra 2 means there’s a very weak foundation in trigonometry for circular motion, oscillations and waves, as well as matrices for vector analysis (momentum, forces). In addition you’d be taking a no calculus based class so the treatment of energy and dynamics will be taught at a very simplistic level.

It's intro (honors / "elective" AP) conceptual class, before advanced technical class ("major-eligible" AP).
Same sequence as in chemistry, biology, CS, Spanish...

AP Physics C is usually only Mech, not also E&M. So it matches Physics 1.

I suppose you could take AP physics early if the goal is to rack up as many APs as possible, but at the same time there’s an opportunity cost associated with it plus all the downsides mentioned in this thread and the threads linked above. Physics C is one semester mechanics and the other electromagnetism usually both are taken.

There’s a deep misunderstanding on what a college level physics class is supposed to teach. The idea is that students have the intellectual maturity to understand a mathematical description if the physical phenomena from first principles, ie Newtons laws. It’s a given that it requires advanced math like calculus, vectors (linear algebra), and trigonometry. Absent that foundation Physics 1 is a collection of factoids with a sprinkling of plug and chug formulas that have a limited educational value. Many would argue that “algebra based physics” is not even a college level class, because of the above reasons. Physics 1&2 won’t satisfy major requisite any stem major, so it’s more like chasing the rigorous coursework label.

If the student has a real interest in physics, I think they’d be much better served through dual enrollment to follow up the math sequence up to differential equations and the typical three semesters of real college physics.

Have you looked at the actual AP questions for AP Physics 1? They are very far from plug and chug. There is a reason it has such a low pass rate. That being said, college physics is primarily with calculus although non stem majors may do it without calculus. You can actually apply to med school with physics with algebra. Physics with calculus is not essential for med school applications.

Students don’t take AP physics as preparation for med school, that’s such a silly observation. Yes, life science majors in lower ranked programs don’t need calculus based physics for degree requirements. Why is this so notable or surprising?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do not take the AP Physics without the Alg 2. AP Physics 1 is one of the lowest passed exams. You can search this forum for many conversations about Physics.

+1
I’ve taught 10th graders in AP Physics 1 who were talking Algebra 2 concurrently. Smart kids, but they struggled all year, earning Cs and 2s on the exam. It’s not simple plug and chug algebra problems. It’s abstract reasoning across multiple concepts with formula manipulation.

My daughter is currently an 8th grader enrolled in 8th-grade level Physics and algebra 1. She is an extremely smart kid and plans on taking geometry and AP physics 1 next year. I am worried for her since she is also taking all honors and very time-demanding sports all year, but there isn;t another option for her other than AP physics, according to her teacher. How should I prepare her?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do not take the AP Physics without the Alg 2. AP Physics 1 is one of the lowest passed exams. You can search this forum for many conversations about Physics.

+1
I’ve taught 10th graders in AP Physics 1 who were talking Algebra 2 concurrently. Smart kids, but they struggled all year, earning Cs and 2s on the exam. It’s not simple plug and chug algebra problems. It’s abstract reasoning across multiple concepts with formula manipulation.

My daughter is currently an 8th grader enrolled in 8th-grade level Physics and algebra 1. She is an extremely smart kid and plans on taking geometry and AP physics 1 next year. I am worried for her since she is also taking all honors and very time-demanding sports all year, but there isn;t another option for her other than AP physics, according to her teacher. How should I prepare her?

What is 8th grade physics?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do not take the AP Physics without the Alg 2. AP Physics 1 is one of the lowest passed exams. You can search this forum for many conversations about Physics.

+1
I’ve taught 10th graders in AP Physics 1 who were talking Algebra 2 concurrently. Smart kids, but they struggled all year, earning Cs and 2s on the exam. It’s not simple plug and chug algebra problems. It’s abstract reasoning across multiple concepts with formula manipulation.

My daughter is currently an 8th grader enrolled in 8th-grade level Physics and algebra 1. She is an extremely smart kid and plans on taking geometry and AP physics 1 next year. I am worried for her since she is also taking all honors and very time-demanding sports all year, but there isn;t another option for her other than AP physics, according to her teacher. How should I prepare her?

I would advise against her taking AP P1. 8th grade algebra means she was not accelerated in math which means the concepts didn’t come easily or naturally to her. Most of the kids in the class will have either be enrolled in or completed Alg II. She will struggle with the underlying math concepts that need to be foundational for the physics content.

I’m having a hard time envisioning a school that only offers AP P1 and not on grade level or H.Physics. If that’s true I would have her wait to take it. If she really wants to take the course have her take it outside of school. That way if it gets to be too much she can stop with no impact to her GPA. If she rocks it she can take the exam and get the credit and then move onto AP P2 if offered.

The other thing is if she’s really interested in Physics she going to end up with a gap year. She can’t take AP P.C until she’s enrolled in Calculus. Given her current math progression the soonest she can get there is 12th grade. If she completes AP P1 in 9th then what? If there is AP P2 offered she could take that in 10th. In 11th she would not be able to take a physics course. Of course there is no requirement for AP1/2 in order to take P.C but for a kid that loves the material it will be a disappointment to have access to the content for a year or two and then be told she has to wait for her math to catch up in order to continue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do not take the AP Physics without the Alg 2. AP Physics 1 is one of the lowest passed exams. You can search this forum for many conversations about Physics.

+1
I’ve taught 10th graders in AP Physics 1 who were talking Algebra 2 concurrently. Smart kids, but they struggled all year, earning Cs and 2s on the exam. It’s not simple plug and chug algebra problems. It’s abstract reasoning across multiple concepts with formula manipulation.

My daughter is currently an 8th grader enrolled in 8th-grade level Physics and algebra 1. She is an extremely smart kid and plans on taking geometry and AP physics 1 next year. I am worried for her since she is also taking all honors and very time-demanding sports all year, but there isn;t another option for her other than AP physics, according to her teacher. How should I prepare her?

What is 8th grade physics?

Only available at WPMS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do not take the AP Physics without the Alg 2. AP Physics 1 is one of the lowest passed exams. You can search this forum for many conversations about Physics.

+1
I’ve taught 10th graders in AP Physics 1 who were talking Algebra 2 concurrently. Smart kids, but they struggled all year, earning Cs and 2s on the exam. It’s not simple plug and chug algebra problems. It’s abstract reasoning across multiple concepts with formula manipulation.

My daughter is currently an 8th grader enrolled in 8th-grade level Physics and algebra 1. She is an extremely smart kid and plans on taking geometry and AP physics 1 next year. I am worried for her since she is also taking all honors and very time-demanding sports all year, but there isn;t another option for her other than AP physics, according to her teacher. How should I prepare her?

What is 8th grade physics?

Only available at WPMS.

Sorry, what does WPMS stand for?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do not take the AP Physics without the Alg 2. AP Physics 1 is one of the lowest passed exams. You can search this forum for many conversations about Physics.

+1
I’ve taught 10th graders in AP Physics 1 who were talking Algebra 2 concurrently. Smart kids, but they struggled all year, earning Cs and 2s on the exam. It’s not simple plug and chug algebra problems. It’s abstract reasoning across multiple concepts with formula manipulation.

My daughter is currently an 8th grader enrolled in 8th-grade level Physics and algebra 1. She is an extremely smart kid and plans on taking geometry and AP physics 1 next year. I am worried for her since she is also taking all honors and very time-demanding sports all year, but there isn;t another option for her other than AP physics, according to her teacher. How should I prepare her?

What is 8th grade physics?

Only available at WPMS.

Sorry, what does WPMS stand for?

It stands for PP is a troll.

Every middle school has middle school physics.

Some do it in 8th, some in 6th.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/curriculum/science/ms/