any colleges moving to "test aware"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently heard a podcast where the Dartmouth dean of admissions said they were moving from test optional to test aware. Basically saying, yeah, of course we'll notice if you don't send in a score and if you're coming from a UMC high school. That was the tone I was picking up. He was also saying, just send it .. it's better than you think. (which I'm not so sure is true)

I'm looking for more test aware schools. Has anyone else heard of schools moving that way?

If a school is "test aware"...seems like if you score a 1400+ you should send the score. I don't know what the 25 - 75 range was prior to TO, but it was likely starting in the 1400s.

The description above would imply that not sending test scores means you are probably in the 1200s. It also seems to imply that TO is only for disadvantaged kids...and that honestly, an UMC kid should just apply somewhere else vs. TO.

Again, prior to TO, almost no UMC non-athlete, no hook kid would even have wasted their time applying to Dartmouth with a 1200.

Not a shock that MIT applications dropped 30% when they went back to requiring test scores last year.

Did MIT admit students without tests that did not do well their first year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If not test blind, then they are or will become test aware. Colleges don’t want to keep offering middle school and high school math courses for kids with 4.0+ GPAs who were passed along with As across the board.

A friend who teaches chemistry at Yale has been puzzling over the rise in the number of students who haven’t mastered high school math in his classes. What a mystery…

I just read a piece that said that math has not bounced back. Kids in the past 4 years are still scoring lower on average on ACT and SAT math than they were pre-Covid. They are seeing it more with math, particularly algebra. The reading/verbal/english has evened back out. They talked about accelerated math to push kids ahead w/out proper foundation, kids not learning it well in a virtual environment during Covid and grade inflation that gives parents/students 'false mastery'.

My son had straight As in intensified math and scored perfect 600 on SOL algebra, etc. At end of 7th grade when he took a math placement test for a private high school to gauge whether he could skip algebra he scored a 58%!! They had concepts he had never seen that the MS did not teach. He also had an awful algebra teacher that was later fired. Even though he got an 'A' in the course, I had him repeat it in 8th grade with a new teacher. He's done well in math since then--but it's funny we still see the types of questions he was missing on practice ACT tests were Algebra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He was also saying, just send it .. it's better than you think. (which I'm not so sure is true)

I'm looking for more test aware schools. Has anyone else heard of schools moving that way?

I heard that comment too. One way to look at it is that the scores do give admissions offices information, so of course they'd like them. Their 25th-75th percentile range for last year for admitted was 1500/1580, so the midpoint would be 1540. It's true that not submitting a 1530 is probably foolish--it's a great score and would probably only be seen as a positive. But, if a straight-A student with excellent extracurriculars submits a 1200, I can't imagine that that would help their application, and more likely would hurt it. It would be great if admissions offices would tell us to submit everything above a particular score, but that's against their own interests.

But why would a straight A student only score a 1200? That doesn’t make sense unless their school’s 4.0 is useless measure of ability.

Some parents play the IEP game.. extra time for tests, repeat tests, tutoring, etc. to keep them grades up. When the kid bombs a standardized test they go, "oh, he's a poor test taker" and push the kid to repeat the test multiple times to crack that 1400 benchmark..

1400 not hard to crack for mediocre student over 2-3x taking test.
1500 harder for Mediocre student

1400 is 95th percentile
1500 is 98th percentile

"Mediocre students" aren't going to hit either no matter how many times they try

+1 I've tutored for the SAT--if you're not a top student you're not hitting either of those scores.

[Anonymous]

^oh so a kid without a math standardized test to show and inflated "As" in HS math most certainly could show up to college not knowing basic concepts. This is very common today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are looking for ways to reject you quickly so they can cut 28,000 applicants into 1,800 admits.

If your scores aren't top notch, and you send them, then you are giving them the definite information they need to reject you.

If your scores aren't top notch, and you don't send them, then you have not given them definite information, whatever they might suspect.

I'd lean towards not sending them if you're not above midpoint for the previous year's 25/75.

Exactly. Then they have to read your essays. I listen to a different podcast not from the Dartmouth admissions Director but from someone else who mentioned that a lot of ivies want the score because it’s an auto reject pile for GPA and Test score They don’t even read anything unless you pass that first stage.

Highly selective schools want you to submit the scores and want you to pay the fee and want you to add to their great application numbers and eventual yield. They want the score bc it’s entered into a data management system (like ptr-Vovid) along with zip code and gpa and school code, for auto sorting.

But if your score is below the 50th percentile mark and you do not have something really special… Not great… Not even normal awards… Something magical, and so unique… It’s a waste of time.

So for those kids if they are below the 50th percentile, I would say no don’t submit. Because it’s true they don’t even read your application if you were below unless there is some other hook

If you do not submit the score, you are automatically put into another pile. Read usually by different people/committee members.

Did you notice strangely a lot more test optional kids got into really good schools last year then kids with perfect stats in your circle?!? Maybe just a private school thing but I think not.

What’s the data system and who is using it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He was also saying, just send it .. it's better than you think. (which I'm not so sure is true)

I'm looking for more test aware schools. Has anyone else heard of schools moving that way?

I heard that comment too. One way to look at it is that the scores do give admissions offices information, so of course they'd like them. Their 25th-75th percentile range for last year for admitted was 1500/1580, so the midpoint would be 1540. It's true that not submitting a 1530 is probably foolish--it's a great score and would probably only be seen as a positive. But, if a straight-A student with excellent extracurriculars submits a 1200, I can't imagine that that would help their application, and more likely would hurt it. It would be great if admissions offices would tell us to submit everything above a particular score, but that's against their own interests.

But why would a straight A student only score a 1200? That doesn’t make sense unless their school’s 4.0 is useless measure of ability.

Some parents play the IEP game.. extra time for tests, repeat tests, tutoring, etc. to keep them grades up. When the kid bombs a standardized test they go, "oh, he's a poor test taker" and push the kid to repeat the test multiple times to crack that 1400 benchmark..

1400 not hard to crack for mediocre student over 2-3x taking test.
1500 harder for Mediocre student

1400 is 95th percentile
1500 is 98th percentile

"Mediocre students" aren't going to hit either no matter how many times they try

+1 I've tutored for the SAT--if you're not a top student you're not hitting either of those scores.

My kid who is horrible at math went from 1220 to 1440 after 2 tries and I month intensive private tutoring.

Kid would prob not get same score today. Super crazy tutoring. Love my daughter but not great at math

[Anonymous]

My son with 35 in math and reading, 34 in science.
And 30 in English….cannot figure it out. Multiple tries.

Wondering if it’s a learning issue and was undiagnosed all those years bc of using grammarly.

Going TO sadly.
So he’ll be one of the TO kids you guys are referring to….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^oh so a kid without a math standardized test to show and inflated "As" in HS math most certainly could show up to college not knowing basic concepts. This is very common today.

The SAT only tests up to HS Geometry so it's not going to show anything that meaningful. Many schools look at AP/IB exams for evidence of math knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He was also saying, just send it .. it's better than you think. (which I'm not so sure is true)

I'm looking for more test aware schools. Has anyone else heard of schools moving that way?

I heard that comment too. One way to look at it is that the scores do give admissions offices information, so of course they'd like them. Their 25th-75th percentile range for last year for admitted was 1500/1580, so the midpoint would be 1540. It's true that not submitting a 1530 is probably foolish--it's a great score and would probably only be seen as a positive. But, if a straight-A student with excellent extracurriculars submits a 1200, I can't imagine that that would help their application, and more likely would hurt it. It would be great if admissions offices would tell us to submit everything above a particular score, but that's against their own interests.

But why would a straight A student only score a 1200? That doesn’t make sense unless their school’s 4.0 is useless measure of ability.

Some parents play the IEP game.. extra time for tests, repeat tests, tutoring, etc. to keep them grades up. When the kid bombs a standardized test they go, "oh, he's a poor test taker" and push the kid to repeat the test multiple times to crack that 1400 benchmark..

1400 not hard to crack for mediocre student over 2-3x taking test.
1500 harder for Mediocre student

1400 is 95th percentile
1500 is 98th percentile

"Mediocre students" aren't going to hit either no matter how many times they try

+1 I've tutored for the SAT--if you're not a top student you're not hitting either of those scores.

My kid who is horrible at math went from 1220 to 1440 after 2 tries and I month intensive private tutoring.

Kid would prob not get same score today. Super crazy tutoring. Love my daughter but not great at math

1220 is 78th percentile, so still above the 75%ile of college-bound students (remember it is also a select sample of students who opt to take the SAT--especially in test optional times) so above "mediocre" -- and, yes, sometimes very intensive tutoring can raise a score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son with 35 in math and reading, 34 in science.
And 30 in English….cannot figure it out. Multiple tries.

Wondering if it’s a learning issue and was undiagnosed all those years bc of using grammarly.

Going TO sadly.
So he’ll be one of the TO kids you guys are referring to….

He should submit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are looking for ways to reject you quickly so they can cut 28,000 applicants into 1,800 admits.

If your scores aren't top notch, and you send them, then you are giving them the definite information they need to reject you.

If your scores aren't top notch, and you don't send them, then you have not given them definite information, whatever they might suspect.

I'd lean towards not sending them if you're not above midpoint for the previous year's 25/75.

Exactly. Then they have to read your essays. I listen to a different podcast not from the Dartmouth admissions Director but from someone else who mentioned that a lot of ivies want the score because it’s an auto reject pile for GPA and Test score They don’t even read anything unless you pass that first stage.

Highly selective schools want you to submit the scores and want you to pay the fee and want you to add to their great application numbers and eventual yield. They want the score bc it’s entered into a data management system (like ptr-Vovid) along with zip code and gpa and school code, for auto sorting.

But if your score is below the 50th percentile mark and you do not have something really special… Not great… Not even normal awards… Something magical, and so unique… It’s a waste of time.

So for those kids if they are below the 50th percentile, I would say no don’t submit. Because it’s true they don’t even read your application if you were below unless there is some other hook

If you do not submit the score, you are automatically put into another pile. Read usually by different people/committee members.

Did you notice strangely a lot more test optional kids got into really good schools last year then kids with perfect stats in your circle?!? Maybe just a private school thing but I think not.

What’s the data system and who is using it

I went to a seminar with Selingo and he mentioned this type of data sorting too. Think it involved coding with colors (high schools; zip codes).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son with 35 in math and reading, 34 in science.
And 30 in English….cannot figure it out. Multiple tries.

Wondering if it’s a learning issue and was undiagnosed all those years bc of using grammarly.

Going TO sadly.
So he’ll be one of the TO kids you guys are referring to….

He should submit

+1
The test optional landscape is rapidly changing. If his overall scores are above the 25th percentile, submit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently heard a podcast where the Dartmouth dean of admissions said they were moving from test optional to test aware. Basically saying, yeah, of course we'll notice if you don't send in a score and if you're coming from a UMC high school. That was the tone I was picking up. He was also saying, just send it .. it's better than you think. (which I'm not so sure is true)

I'm looking for more test aware schools. Has anyone else heard of schools moving that way?

If a school is "test aware"...seems like if you score a 1400+ you should send the score. I don't know what the 25 - 75 range was prior to TO, but it was likely starting in the 1400s.

The description above would imply that not sending test scores means you are probably in the 1200s. It also seems to imply that TO is only for disadvantaged kids...and that honestly, an UMC kid should just apply somewhere else vs. TO.

Again, prior to TO, almost no UMC non-athlete, no hook kid would even have wasted their time applying to Dartmouth with a 1200.

Not a shock that MIT applications dropped 30% when they went back to requiring test scores last year.

Did MIT admit students without tests that did not do well their first year?

Basically - read this interview. It’s fascinating because it goes against what other schools say. And it makes a good point. If a underprivileged student only has Calc AB at their school, is taking it senior year so no AP test score, a 750+ shows, they can handle MIT math.

https://news.mit.edu/2022/stuart-schmill-sat-act-requirement-0328

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son with 35 in math and reading, 34 in science.
And 30 in English….cannot figure it out. Multiple tries.

Wondering if it’s a learning issue and was undiagnosed all those years bc of using grammarly.

Going TO sadly.
So he’ll be one of the TO kids you guys are referring to….

Jeez. This great. 33 or 34 composite?!?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are looking for ways to reject you quickly so they can cut 28,000 applicants into 1,800 admits.

If your scores aren't top notch, and you send them, then you are giving them the definite information they need to reject you.

If your scores aren't top notch, and you don't send them, then you have not given them definite information, whatever they might suspect.

I'd lean towards not sending them if you're not above midpoint for the previous year's 25/75.

Exactly. Then they have to read your essays. I listen to a different podcast not from the Dartmouth admissions Director but from someone else who mentioned that a lot of ivies want the score because it’s an auto reject pile for GPA and Test score They don’t even read anything unless you pass that first stage.

Highly selective schools want you to submit the scores and want you to pay the fee and want you to add to their great application numbers and eventual yield. They want the score bc it’s entered into a data management system (like ptr-Vovid) along with zip code and gpa and school code, for auto sorting.

But if your score is below the 50th percentile mark and you do not have something really special… Not great… Not even normal awards… Something magical, and so unique… It’s a waste of time.

So for those kids if they are below the 50th percentile, I would say no don’t submit. Because it’s true they don’t even read your application if you were below unless there is some other hook

If you do not submit the score, you are automatically put into another pile. Read usually by different people/committee members.

Did you notice strangely a lot more test optional kids got into really good schools last year then kids with perfect stats in your circle?!? Maybe just a private school thing but I think not.

What’s the data system and who is using it

I went to a seminar with Selingo and he mentioned this type of data sorting too. Think it involved coding with colors (high schools; zip codes).

The schools that were test optional but not really test optional are already correcting for this. They (and everyone else) sees how it went wrong. It is not how many are doing this year's applications. They are putting the test optional kids in the same data system with a zero and not using a test-cut-off number.