FCPS High School Poverty and Enrollment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of these numbers really surprise me. Where are these families living?? This area has gotten so expensive.

In Mount Vernon, there are two trailer (mobile home) parks that feed into MVHS. We also have homeless shelters. Ft. Belvoir families are zoned for MVHS - enlisted soldiers are not high wage earners and some of our FARMS students may be military families. But the majority are most likely multiple families living together in both single family homes and apartments/townhouses/condos. We also have multiple apartment complexes and most of them are older, garden style apartments and not the new, expensive ones with fancy amenities. I don't know how the affordable housing works, but I do know families can rent at reduced rates. I looked and the apartment complex that is walking distance to the high school starts at $1500 a month. And it is one of the nicer apartment complexes in the 22309 zip code (the MV zip code.)

I cannot speak to the military at Fort Belvoir specifically, but I can speak generally. I taught in DOD schools. They historically have far fewer high school students than elementary because the parents begin retiring as the kids get older. And, FWIW, it is unlikely that there are many high school students from Fort Belvoir whose parents are in the lower enlisted ranks.
Also, I understand that military families are able to pupil place out to other schools. I am guessing that many choose this option.

All true.

I just looked at the school profiles for the 2 elementary schools located on Ft. Belvoir.

Their FARMS numbers significantly increased this past school year, from the upper teens to over 30% in both schools.

Knowing that those schools are amost completely lower level enlisted families, it is shocking to see a snapshot how much the terrible inflation of this administration has affected our enlisted troops.

Shameful.

+1
Enlisted should not only be paid far better, but also given housing in the best school districts.

We have had kids at military base schools.

The military base schools comprised of 100% military kids tend to be very strong. There was a lot of research last decade before the focus switched to equity based education on the success of military base schools in eliminating the achievement gap between races, not by lowering standards but by raising up all kids, similar to the success in Catholic schools in high poverty areas.

Military on base schools are traditionally very strong, even when the families are primarily lower ranking enlisted. However, this might be different now that the military has moved away from a culture of color blind excellence. I haven't looked at recent stats, but prior to the last couple of years military base schools were exceptional, particularly for poor or minority kids.

The number of assumptions/assertions in this statement is just mind-blowing. This forum is getting more and more chock full of right wing bingo card words/concepts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of these numbers really surprise me. Where are these families living?? This area has gotten so expensive.

In Mount Vernon, there are two trailer (mobile home) parks that feed into MVHS. We also have homeless shelters. Ft. Belvoir families are zoned for MVHS - enlisted soldiers are not high wage earners and some of our FARMS students may be military families. But the majority are most likely multiple families living together in both single family homes and apartments/townhouses/condos. We also have multiple apartment complexes and most of them are older, garden style apartments and not the new, expensive ones with fancy amenities. I don't know how the affordable housing works, but I do know families can rent at reduced rates. I looked and the apartment complex that is walking distance to the high school starts at $1500 a month. And it is one of the nicer apartment complexes in the 22309 zip code (the MV zip code.)

I cannot speak to the military at Fort Belvoir specifically, but I can speak generally. I taught in DOD schools. They historically have far fewer high school students than elementary because the parents begin retiring as the kids get older. And, FWIW, it is unlikely that there are many high school students from Fort Belvoir whose parents are in the lower enlisted ranks.
Also, I understand that military families are able to pupil place out to other schools. I am guessing that many choose this option.

All true.

I just looked at the school profiles for the 2 elementary schools located on Ft. Belvoir.

Their FARMS numbers significantly increased this past school year, from the upper teens to over 30% in both schools.

Knowing that those schools are amost completely lower level enlisted families, it is shocking to see a snapshot how much the terrible inflation of this administration has affected our enlisted troops.

Shameful.

+1
Enlisted should not only be paid far better, but also given housing in the best school districts.

We have had kids at military base schools.

The military base schools comprised of 100% military kids tend to be very strong. There was a lot of research last decade before the focus switched to equity based education on the success of military base schools in eliminating the achievement gap between races, not by lowering standards but by raising up all kids, similar to the success in Catholic schools in high poverty areas.

Military on base schools are traditionally very strong, even when the families are primarily lower ranking enlisted. However, this might be different now that the military has moved away from a culture of color blind excellence. I haven't looked at recent stats, but prior to the last couple of years military base schools were exceptional, particularly for poor or minority kids.

The number of assumptions/assertions in this statement is just mind-blowing. This forum is getting more and more chock full of right wing bingo card words/concepts.

Well, no. You are wrong.

This closing of the achievement gap by military base schools was extensively looked at during the early 2000s/late 90s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of these numbers really surprise me. Where are these families living?? This area has gotten so expensive.

In Mount Vernon, there are two trailer (mobile home) parks that feed into MVHS. We also have homeless shelters. Ft. Belvoir families are zoned for MVHS - enlisted soldiers are not high wage earners and some of our FARMS students may be military families. But the majority are most likely multiple families living together in both single family homes and apartments/townhouses/condos. We also have multiple apartment complexes and most of them are older, garden style apartments and not the new, expensive ones with fancy amenities. I don't know how the affordable housing works, but I do know families can rent at reduced rates. I looked and the apartment complex that is walking distance to the high school starts at $1500 a month. And it is one of the nicer apartment complexes in the 22309 zip code (the MV zip code.)

I cannot speak to the military at Fort Belvoir specifically, but I can speak generally. I taught in DOD schools. They historically have far fewer high school students than elementary because the parents begin retiring as the kids get older. And, FWIW, it is unlikely that there are many high school students from Fort Belvoir whose parents are in the lower enlisted ranks.
Also, I understand that military families are able to pupil place out to other schools. I am guessing that many choose this option.

All true.

I just looked at the school profiles for the 2 elementary schools located on Ft. Belvoir.

Their FARMS numbers significantly increased this past school year, from the upper teens to over 30% in both schools.

Knowing that those schools are amost completely lower level enlisted families, it is shocking to see a snapshot how much the terrible inflation of this administration has affected our enlisted troops.

Shameful.

+1
Enlisted should not only be paid far better, but also given housing in the best school districts.

We have had kids at military base schools.

The military base schools comprised of 100% military kids tend to be very strong. There was a lot of research last decade before the focus switched to equity based education on the success of military base schools in eliminating the achievement gap between races, not by lowering standards but by raising up all kids, similar to the success in Catholic schools in high poverty areas.

Military on base schools are traditionally very strong, even when the families are primarily lower ranking enlisted. However, this might be different now that the military has moved away from a culture of color blind excellence. I haven't looked at recent stats, but prior to the last couple of years military base schools were exceptional, particularly for poor or minority kids.

The number of assumptions/assertions in this statement is just mind-blowing. This forum is getting more and more chock full of right wing bingo card words/concepts.

Well, no. You are wrong.

This closing of the achievement gap by military base schools was extensively looked at during the early 2000s/late 90s.

For example:

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/dod-run-schools-cited-for-closing-achievement-gaps/2001/10

There are extensive education journal articles as well as studies on this topic from the 90s and early 2000s. African American students in particular on military base schools cut the achievement gap significantly. This is in spite of younger parents and a stressful family life due to moving often, deployments, and active wartime/conflicts. There are studies showing that when adjusted for rank, meaning parent education and income, (ie white child of 04 officers and AA child of O4 officers, or white child of E4 enlisted vs AA child of E4 enlisted, the achievement gap disappeared.

Many of the articles are still online if you care to google it.

Enlisted should never be on food stamps, ever. That is shameful. But the military base schools are often among the best for students.

[Anonymous]

OP - the simple fact is that the gap between certain neighboring schools in FCPS has become so large that the prospect of boundary changes is essentially off the table.

West Springfield - Lewis - not going to happen. Langley - Herndon - not going to happen. Woodson - Annandale - not going to happen.

And then you have West Potomac and Mount Vernon - it could have happened. A boundary change made perfect sense. Extra space at Mount Vernon and too many students at West Potomac. Both schools have a pretty high F/R lunch rate, but West Potomac's is a bit lower and it has a better reputation (and AP courses). If they didn't change those boundaries, you better believe they are never going to make those other changes.

Up until 2000, maybe 2005, you could probably have made any of those changes. Parents would have grumbled but would have sucked it up and moved on. Now it would implode parents' minds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of these numbers really surprise me. Where are these families living?? This area has gotten so expensive.

In Mount Vernon, there are two trailer (mobile home) parks that feed into MVHS. We also have homeless shelters. Ft. Belvoir families are zoned for MVHS - enlisted soldiers are not high wage earners and some of our FARMS students may be military families. But the majority are most likely multiple families living together in both single family homes and apartments/townhouses/condos. We also have multiple apartment complexes and most of them are older, garden style apartments and not the new, expensive ones with fancy amenities. I don't know how the affordable housing works, but I do know families can rent at reduced rates. I looked and the apartment complex that is walking distance to the high school starts at $1500 a month. And it is one of the nicer apartment complexes in the 22309 zip code (the MV zip code.)

I cannot speak to the military at Fort Belvoir specifically, but I can speak generally. I taught in DOD schools. They historically have far fewer high school students than elementary because the parents begin retiring as the kids get older. And, FWIW, it is unlikely that there are many high school students from Fort Belvoir whose parents are in the lower enlisted ranks.
Also, I understand that military families are able to pupil place out to other schools. I am guessing that many choose this option.

All true.

I just looked at the school profiles for the 2 elementary schools located on Ft. Belvoir.

Their FARMS numbers significantly increased this past school year, from the upper teens to over 30% in both schools.

Knowing that those schools are amost completely lower level enlisted families, it is shocking to see a snapshot how much the terrible inflation of this administration has affected our enlisted troops.

Shameful.

+1
Enlisted should not only be paid far better, but also given housing in the best school districts.

We have had kids at military base schools.

The military base schools comprised of 100% military kids tend to be very strong. There was a lot of research last decade before the focus switched to equity based education on the success of military base schools in eliminating the achievement gap between races, not by lowering standards but by raising up all kids, similar to the success in Catholic schools in high poverty areas.

Military on base schools are traditionally very strong, even when the families are primarily lower ranking enlisted. However, this might be different now that the military has moved away from a culture of color blind excellence. I haven't looked at recent stats, but prior to the last couple of years military base schools were exceptional, particularly for poor or minority kids.

The number of assumptions/assertions in this statement is just mind-blowing. This forum is getting more and more chock full of right wing bingo card words/concepts.

I posted earlier. I taught in DOD schools. The achievement gap has always been less than in civilian schools. Why? Because at least one parent has a job. In the schools where I taught, they all had housing, too. There is a work ethic that involves discipline, as well.

There are also issues that are not normally found in civilian schools. Parents gone for weeks/months/years at a time.

But, the achievement gap between races in my classrooms was not noticeable. There were years when the sharpest kid was Black and years when the kid was white. Some years, it might be a boy. Other years, a girl.

Again, the economic status of all the families was fairly similar. I only taught a handful of officer's kids as the places I taught were not "higher headquarters."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP - the simple fact is that the gap between certain neighboring schools in FCPS has become so large that the prospect of boundary changes is essentially off the table.

West Springfield - Lewis - not going to happen. Langley - Herndon - not going to happen. Woodson - Annandale - not going to happen.

And then you have West Potomac and Mount Vernon - it could have happened. A boundary change made perfect sense. Extra space at Mount Vernon and too many students at West Potomac. Both schools have a pretty high F/R lunch rate, but West Potomac's is a bit lower and it has a better reputation (and AP courses). If they didn't change those boundaries, you better believe they are never going to make those other changes.

Up until 2000, maybe 2005, you could probably have made any of those changes. Parents would have grumbled but would have sucked it up and moved on. Now it would implode parents' minds.

Woodson and Annandale used to be more even till the school board messed that up. They create these disparities to suit themselves. They get on these school boards just to make boundary adjustments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - the simple fact is that the gap between certain neighboring schools in FCPS has become so large that the prospect of boundary changes is essentially off the table.

West Springfield - Lewis - not going to happen. Langley - Herndon - not going to happen. Woodson - Annandale - not going to happen.

And then you have West Potomac and Mount Vernon - it could have happened. A boundary change made perfect sense. Extra space at Mount Vernon and too many students at West Potomac. Both schools have a pretty high F/R lunch rate, but West Potomac's is a bit lower and it has a better reputation (and AP courses). If they didn't change those boundaries, you better believe they are never going to make those other changes.

Up until 2000, maybe 2005, you could probably have made any of those changes. Parents would have grumbled but would have sucked it up and moved on. Now it would implode parents' minds.

Woodson and Annandale used to be more even till the school board messed that up. They create these disparities to suit themselves. They get on these school boards just to make boundary adjustments.

Why bring up Woodson and Annandale and not Lake Braddock and Annandale?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Langley 3%
Herndon 50%

These two pyramids are right next to each other.

Exactly. Langley’s borders should be changed to send some to Herndon and McLean’s border can be changed to send some to Langley to reduce MHS’s overcrowding. But rich Langley parents are too powerful.

No, McLean parents continue to balk at the suggestion of sending more McLean kids to Langley. Take it up with them.

So as I understand it, your position (eye rolls and all) is:

1. It’s Herndon’s responsibility that poverty got concentrated at HHS. Langley has nothing to do with it.

2. It’s McLean, not Langley, responsible for more McLean kids not getting moved to Langley.

On the first point, it’s not just the Town of Herndon that decided what got built in Herndon and who attends Herndon MS/HS. The county and FCPS played a role as well, just as FCPS decided which expensive single-family areas in Herndon and Reston were rezoned to Langley in the past.

On the second point, the Great Falls community fought to limit the number of kids moved into Langley for fear it might bump them into Herndon. At this point, it’s more likely that if no addition gets built at McLean and another McLean boundary change is needed it will involve Falls Church (getting built out to 2500) than Langley (with a lower capacity of 2370 and a more vocal citizens association).

[Anonymous]

It's sad that McLean had jumped up so high, they need to adjust the boundaries to keep it inline with Langley

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - the simple fact is that the gap between certain neighboring schools in FCPS has become so large that the prospect of boundary changes is essentially off the table.

West Springfield - Lewis - not going to happen. Langley - Herndon - not going to happen. Woodson - Annandale - not going to happen.

And then you have West Potomac and Mount Vernon - it could have happened. A boundary change made perfect sense. Extra space at Mount Vernon and too many students at West Potomac. Both schools have a pretty high F/R lunch rate, but West Potomac's is a bit lower and it has a better reputation (and AP courses). If they didn't change those boundaries, you better believe they are never going to make those other changes.

Up until 2000, maybe 2005, you could probably have made any of those changes. Parents would have grumbled but would have sucked it up and moved on. Now it would implode parents' minds.

Woodson and Annandale used to be more even till the school board messed that up. They create these disparities to suit themselves. They get on these school boards just to make boundary adjustments.

OK. Lake Braddock also got some of the Annandale Single Family Homes...

Why bring up Woodson and Annandale and not Lake Braddock and Annandale?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Langley 3%
Herndon 50%

These two pyramids are right next to each other.

Exactly. Langley’s borders should be changed to send some to Herndon and McLean’s border can be changed to send some to Langley to reduce MHS’s overcrowding. But rich Langley parents are too powerful.

No, McLean parents continue to balk at the suggestion of sending more McLean kids to Langley. Take it up with them.

So as I understand it, your position (eye rolls and all) is:

1. It’s Herndon’s responsibility that poverty got concentrated at HHS. Langley has nothing to do with it.

2. It’s McLean, not Langley, responsible for more McLean kids not getting moved to Langley.

On the first point, it’s not just the Town of Herndon that decided what got built in Herndon and who attends Herndon MS/HS. The county and FCPS played a role as well, just as FCPS decided which expensive single-family areas in Herndon and Reston were rezoned to Langley in the past.

On the second point, the Great Falls community fought to limit the number of kids moved into Langley for fear it might bump them into Herndon. At this point, it’s more likely that if no addition gets built at McLean and another McLean boundary change is needed it will involve Falls Church (getting built out to 2500) than Langley (with a lower capacity of 2370 and a more vocal citizens association).

Just curious, unlike Herndon, Springfield is not a separate incorporated town, so who concentrated the poverty at Lewis? I'll answer - The FCPS School Board and the facilities planners. Mount Vernon is more of a combination of the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors and FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP - the simple fact is that the gap between certain neighboring schools in FCPS has become so large that the prospect of boundary changes is essentially off the table.

West Springfield - Lewis - not going to happen. Langley - Herndon - not going to happen. Woodson - Annandale - not going to happen.

And then you have West Potomac and Mount Vernon - it could have happened. A boundary change made perfect sense. Extra space at Mount Vernon and too many students at West Potomac. Both schools have a pretty high F/R lunch rate, but West Potomac's is a bit lower and it has a better reputation (and AP courses). If they didn't change those boundaries, you better believe they are never going to make those other changes.

Up until 2000, maybe 2005, you could probably have made any of those changes. Parents would have grumbled but would have sucked it up and moved on. Now it would implode parents' minds.

The turning point appeared to be in 2008 when kids from Madison, Oakton, and Westfield were moved to South Lakes. The gaps among those schools were not as big as exists today between some schools with adjacent boundaries, but they were real, the boundary change involved moving kids from AP schools to an IB school, and there was a lot of resistance even though the boundary change went through.

Ever since then, we’ve had School Boards that never stop talking about “equity” and their “progressive” values, but are incredibly cautious and hypocritical on boundaries. West Potomac got expanded to a ridiculous size (3000) so no one had to move to Mount Vernon, but they had no qualms kicking kids out of McLean when it got crowded because Langley was considered just as good.

So you are probably right. They’d rather be hypocrites than lose their status as elected officials.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Langley 3%
Herndon 50%

These two pyramids are right next to each other.

Exactly. Langley’s borders should be changed to send some to Herndon and McLean’s border can be changed to send some to Langley to reduce MHS’s overcrowding. But rich Langley parents are too powerful.

The Great Falls folks got Elaine Tholen to limit the number of kids moved from McLean to Langley in 2021 and to make sure they were all kids living in expensive single-family areas (no condos or apartments in Tysons, as FCPS staff had proposed).

The next boundary change for McLean will probably involve Falls Church, which is currently getting renovated and expanded, not Langley. The GFCA will continue to fight moving more kids to Langley, Falls Church is getting expanded to 2500, and there’s an attendance island in Falls Church zoned for McLean that is closer to Falls Church than McLean and already feeds into an elementary school that is a split feeder to McLean and Falls Church. That area is high FARMS, so if the School Board wants to keep it at McLean for diversity they’ll need to go ahead and fund the addition McLean has been requested for the better part of the last decade. Otherwise they can’t justify the continued existence of the island, when McLean remains overcrowded and new multi-family housing will get built in other areas closer to MHS in Tysons and near the WFC Metro.

That gerrymandered little island needs to go to Falls Church HS. Those families that are Timberlane, Longfellow, and McLean are considerably wealthier and their homes worth much more than the other split which is zoned for Falls Church HS. It's ridiculous that those island kids literally pass other high schools to get to McLean.

Say what? The story in the Dranesville district gets sillier and sillier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Langley 3%
Herndon 50%

These two pyramids are right next to each other.

+1
Not to mention, voters in Herndon are allowing the policies that create these poverty zones. You get what you vote for.

Ummm … Fairfax County voters have created a lot of the problem. Some place has to step in. The sh!t really hits the fan though when it comes to schooling and suddenly everyone becomes conservative. Fairfax County is a so-called sanctuary yet doesn’t have a real solution for schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Langley 3%
Herndon 50%

These two pyramids are right next to each other.

Exactly. Langley’s borders should be changed to send some to Herndon and McLean’s border can be changed to send some to Langley to reduce MHS’s overcrowding. But rich Langley parents are too powerful.

No, McLean parents continue to balk at the suggestion of sending more McLean kids to Langley. Take it up with them.

So as I understand it, your position (eye rolls and all) is:

1. It’s Herndon’s responsibility that poverty got concentrated at HHS. Langley has nothing to do with it.

2. It’s McLean, not Langley, responsible for more McLean kids not getting moved to Langley.

On the first point, it’s not just the Town of Herndon that decided what got built in Herndon and who attends Herndon MS/HS. The county and FCPS played a role as well, just as FCPS decided which expensive single-family areas in Herndon and Reston were rezoned to Langley in the past.

On the second point, the Great Falls community fought to limit the number of kids moved into Langley for fear it might bump them into Herndon. At this point, it’s more likely that if no addition gets built at McLean and another McLean boundary change is needed it will involve Falls Church (getting built out to 2500) than Langley (with a lower capacity of 2370 and a more vocal citizens association).

+100

In addition HHS encompasses more than the town of Herndon. Feeders include places that are / were called Herndon but are unincorporated areas of Fairfax County.