What does middle class mean to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

Poor struggle for needs. Lower middle can afford most of the needs but no wants. Middle can afford all needs and few wants. Upper middle can afford needs and many wants. Rich can afford needs and wants. Wealthy have lot more even after throwing a lot on needs, wants, not needs, whims etc.

[Anonymous]

Middle is the group who can become poor with one mishap or misstep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have housing. Can be rental, condo, SFH
Have job. Can be salaried or hourly. Covers all expenses plus retirement and a bit of fun.
Have transportation. Can be owned or tented car. Can be public transportation.
Can feed and clothe your family decently without a lot of pressure.

middle class people don't save all that much for retirement. They rely on social security for at least of their retirement funds.

My retired parents are "middle class", in that they have some savings, but they mostly rely on the social security and pension. They want for nothing (food, clothing, small condo), but they have very little other expenses other than healthcare.

[Anonymous]

Its hard to differentiate between upper middle and rich, some people spend on lifestyle while others save. Its easy to differentiate between rich and wealthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I think middle class, I think the following:

- married couple with middle manager type careers.
- HHI anywhere from 200k-300k
- house or a townhouse not in a desirable zip code: Burke, Annandale, warrenton, silver spring etc
- annual trip to the beach with family
- no luxuries; designer clothes, international trips, fancy furniture

That’s UMC. And on that income with that housing they can afford better vacations, lol.

+1 $200K in the DC area is bordering on UMC. $300K is UMC.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/middle-class-income-in-major-us-cities.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Depends where you live.

+1

Also depends on how you treat people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Its hard to differentiate between upper middle and rich, some people spend on lifestyle while others save. Its easy to differentiate between rich and wealthy.

yes, as a PP stated, your lifestyle choices are based on how much you are willing to be in debt. But as far as income is concerned, "middle class" in the DC area ranges from like $100K to $200K.

[Anonymous]

So many of these comments are about using consumer goods/experiences as class signifiers. I think you are missing some obvious errors with this.

Middle class families, by definition, have some wiggle room. Meaning they can make some choices that might enable them to afford things that you normally associate with UMC or rich people. So you can't always ascertain someone's class status just looking at consumer goods or something like vacations, because you don't understand HOW they afforded that. If you don't know what they gave up in order to get it, or whether it was bought with cash or on credit, or whether it was new or used, or whether it was purchased or gifted, then consumer goods/vacations are actually not a great signifier for class status.

A lot of the stuff people on this thread are saying are "out of reach" for MC, I know a lot of MC how have them. But in most cases they are compromising elsewhere in a way that's harder to see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many of these comments are about using consumer goods/experiences as class signifiers. I think you are missing some obvious errors with this.

Middle class families, by definition, have some wiggle room. Meaning they can make some choices that might enable them to afford things that you normally associate with UMC or rich people. So you can't always ascertain someone's class status just looking at consumer goods or something like vacations, because you don't understand HOW they afforded that. If you don't know what they gave up in order to get it, or whether it was bought with cash or on credit, or whether it was new or used, or whether it was purchased or gifted, then consumer goods/vacations are actually not a great signifier for class status.

A lot of the stuff people on this thread are saying are "out of reach" for MC, I know a lot of MC how have them. But in most cases they are compromising elsewhere in a way that's harder to see.

I think you’re missing a nuance as well. A middle class person can go on say, a Bahamas vacation on credit. But they cannot *afford* it. Thus the debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of these comments are about using consumer goods/experiences as class signifiers. I think you are missing some obvious errors with this.

Middle class families, by definition, have some wiggle room. Meaning they can make some choices that might enable them to afford things that you normally associate with UMC or rich people. So you can't always ascertain someone's class status just looking at consumer goods or something like vacations, because you don't understand HOW they afforded that. If you don't know what they gave up in order to get it, or whether it was bought with cash or on credit, or whether it was new or used, or whether it was purchased or gifted, then consumer goods/vacations are actually not a great signifier for class status.

A lot of the stuff people on this thread are saying are "out of reach" for MC, I know a lot of MC how have them. But in most cases they are compromising elsewhere in a way that's harder to see.

I think you’re missing a nuance as well. A middle class person can go on say, a Bahamas vacation on credit. But they cannot *afford* it. Thus the debt.

Oh, I'm not missing that. My point is that you can not, as an outsider, look at that person and say "Well they went to the Bahamas last year, so they can't be middle class!" Which is the mistake a lot of people seem to make. Or conversely "Well my middle class sibling went to the Bahamas last year, so all middle class people can afford the Bahamas."

But also, a middle class person might be able to actually afford the Bahamas. Not every year, but as a for instance: I decided I wanted to celebrate my 45th birthday with a family trip to an all inclusive resort in the Caribbean. I shifted some of my savings into a ladder CD to keep it fairly liquid but earn a little better interest, and also instituted a couple other cost savings (doing really cheap lunches, asking DH to forgo birthday gifts for me so we could put the money toward the trip, bought no new clothes for two years) to build that fund up. And then we took a nice vacation to a resort we would never have normally gone too. It was so worth it! And paid for in cash without changing retirement or college savings practices.

The point is: you can't look at someone's consumer activity and assume you know whether they are middle class. The peopel on here saying that a middle class family simply CANNOT go to Europe are just not thinking very creatively. Of course they can. It just takes diligence, sacrifice, and a little luck (MC people always have to worry about a job loss or health emergency derailing them financially).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of these comments are about using consumer goods/experiences as class signifiers. I think you are missing some obvious errors with this.

Middle class families, by definition, have some wiggle room. Meaning they can make some choices that might enable them to afford things that you normally associate with UMC or rich people. So you can't always ascertain someone's class status just looking at consumer goods or something like vacations, because you don't understand HOW they afforded that. If you don't know what they gave up in order to get it, or whether it was bought with cash or on credit, or whether it was new or used, or whether it was purchased or gifted, then consumer goods/vacations are actually not a great signifier for class status.

A lot of the stuff people on this thread are saying are "out of reach" for MC, I know a lot of MC how have them. But in most cases they are compromising elsewhere in a way that's harder to see.

I think you’re missing a nuance as well. A middle class person can go on say, a Bahamas vacation on credit. But they cannot *afford* it. Thus the debt.

Oh, I'm not missing that. My point is that you can not, as an outsider, look at that person and say "Well they went to the Bahamas last year, so they can't be middle class!" Which is the mistake a lot of people seem to make. Or conversely "Well my middle class sibling went to the Bahamas last year, so all middle class people can afford the Bahamas."

But also, a middle class person might be able to actually afford the Bahamas. Not every year, but as a for instance: I decided I wanted to celebrate my 45th birthday with a family trip to an all inclusive resort in the Caribbean. I shifted some of my savings into a ladder CD to keep it fairly liquid but earn a little better interest, and also instituted a couple other cost savings (doing really cheap lunches, asking DH to forgo birthday gifts for me so we could put the money toward the trip, bought no new clothes for two years) to build that fund up. And then we took a nice vacation to a resort we would never have normally gone too. It was so worth it! And paid for in cash without changing retirement or college savings practices.

The point is: you can't look at someone's consumer activity and assume you know whether they are middle class. The peopel on here saying that a middle class family simply CANNOT go to Europe are just not thinking very creatively. Of course they can. It just takes diligence, sacrifice, and a little luck (MC people always have to worry about a job loss or health emergency derailing them financially).

Wait what is your HHI and PITI? Because what you describe actually doesn’t sound very MC to me. It sounds more like a UMC person pretending. Or someone with unusually low housing costs.

[Anonymous]

I don’t really think there’s a true middle class in our country anymore: UMC is middle class, then there’s absurdly wealthy and poor.

I know two people who grew up in the 80s/90s in LCOL towns. Both had a dad who worked in a factory and was able to purchase a home and have their wife stay home (with kids). They owned a couple of cars and went to the beach every year. There is no common, similar job in the US today that can afford this lifestyle. But I consider their lives to have been typically middle class (for that era).

I grew up in DC, between Capitol Hill and Bethesda (parents were split). My mom worked in nonprofits and my dad was a restaurant manager. We were able to take a vacation every year. I went to private school. There is *no way* my parents would be able to afford to finance that lifestyle today, doing what they did.

My husband and I now live in a MCOL area and make a combined income of $250k. We live in a small house with three kids and are not comfortable paying what we would have to pay to have a house that would properly fit us. We both work FT. We don’t take lavish vacations and our kids go to public. We share one car. Intellectually I understand that our HHI is ostensibly UMC, but our existence feels pretty middle of the road MC. YMMV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of these comments are about using consumer goods/experiences as class signifiers. I think you are missing some obvious errors with this.

Middle class families, by definition, have some wiggle room. Meaning they can make some choices that might enable them to afford things that you normally associate with UMC or rich people. So you can't always ascertain someone's class status just looking at consumer goods or something like vacations, because you don't understand HOW they afforded that. If you don't know what they gave up in order to get it, or whether it was bought with cash or on credit, or whether it was new or used, or whether it was purchased or gifted, then consumer goods/vacations are actually not a great signifier for class status.

A lot of the stuff people on this thread are saying are "out of reach" for MC, I know a lot of MC how have them. But in most cases they are compromising elsewhere in a way that's harder to see.

I think you’re missing a nuance as well. A middle class person can go on say, a Bahamas vacation on credit. But they cannot *afford* it. Thus the debt.

Oh, I'm not missing that. My point is that you can not, as an outsider, look at that person and say "Well they went to the Bahamas last year, so they can't be middle class!" Which is the mistake a lot of people seem to make. Or conversely "Well my middle class sibling went to the Bahamas last year, so all middle class people can afford the Bahamas."

But also, a middle class person might be able to actually afford the Bahamas. Not every year, but as a for instance: I decided I wanted to celebrate my 45th birthday with a family trip to an all inclusive resort in the Caribbean. I shifted some of my savings into a ladder CD to keep it fairly liquid but earn a little better interest, and also instituted a couple other cost savings (doing really cheap lunches, asking DH to forgo birthday gifts for me so we could put the money toward the trip, bought no new clothes for two years) to build that fund up. And then we took a nice vacation to a resort we would never have normally gone too. It was so worth it! And paid for in cash without changing retirement or college savings practices.

The point is: you can't look at someone's consumer activity and assume you know whether they are middle class. The peopel on here saying that a middle class family simply CANNOT go to Europe are just not thinking very creatively. Of course they can. It just takes diligence, sacrifice, and a little luck (MC people always have to worry about a job loss or health emergency derailing them financially).

People here are saying the MC can afford things so they can justify that their 300k+ HHI is "only" UMC. There has never been a complaint on DCUM that a "low" earning family "falsely" described themselves as UMC. The complaints are when out of touch UC/rich people describe themselves as UMC and then don't understand why others cannot afford retirement and college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t really think there’s a true middle class in our country anymore: UMC is middle class, then there’s absurdly wealthy and poor.

I know two people who grew up in the 80s/90s in LCOL towns. Both had a dad who worked in a factory and was able to purchase a home and have their wife stay home (with kids). They owned a couple of cars and went to the beach every year. There is no common, similar job in the US today that can afford this lifestyle. But I consider their lives to have been typically middle class (for that era).

I grew up in DC, between Capitol Hill and Bethesda (parents were split). My mom worked in nonprofits and my dad was a restaurant manager. We were able to take a vacation every year. I went to private school. There is *no way* my parents would be able to afford to finance that lifestyle today, doing what they did.

My husband and I now live in a MCOL area and make a combined income of $250k. We live in a small house with three kids and are not comfortable paying what we would have to pay to have a house that would properly fit us. We both work FT. We don’t take lavish vacations and our kids go to public. We share one car. Intellectually I understand that our HHI is ostensibly UMC, but our existence feels pretty middle of the road MC. YMMV.

There definitely are still jobs like that in LCOL places. One example: being a nurse.

But I think people forget how much more austere a lives these families led. They just did a lot less consumer spending in general.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t really think there’s a true middle class in our country anymore: UMC is middle class, then there’s absurdly wealthy and poor.

I know two people who grew up in the 80s/90s in LCOL towns. Both had a dad who worked in a factory and was able to purchase a home and have their wife stay home (with kids). They owned a couple of cars and went to the beach every year. There is no common, similar job in the US today that can afford this lifestyle. But I consider their lives to have been typically middle class (for that era).

I grew up in DC, between Capitol Hill and Bethesda (parents were split). My mom worked in nonprofits and my dad was a restaurant manager. We were able to take a vacation every year. I went to private school. There is *no way* my parents would be able to afford to finance that lifestyle today, doing what they did.

My husband and I now live in a MCOL area and make a combined income of $250k. We live in a small house with three kids and are not comfortable paying what we would have to pay to have a house that would properly fit us. We both work FT. We don’t take lavish vacations and our kids go to public. We share one car. Intellectually I understand that our HHI is ostensibly UMC, but our existence feels pretty middle of the road MC. YMMV.

There definitely are still jobs like that in LCOL places. One example: being a nurse.

But I think people forget how much more austere a lives these families led. They just did a lot less consumer spending in general.

I’m not so sure that anyone’s lifestyle was *that* much more austere in the 80s/90s - I also grew up at that time and there seemed to be plenty of consumer spending going on.

Also, I think you could describe what I outlined as my current situation as relatively “austere.” Not many families share one car, for example, and we don’t spend money constantly. Things are just a lot more expensive. They just are.