What does middle class mean to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

I don’t know what you mean by “easily” but my experience with growing up middle class was that this wasn’t “easy.” It involved checking multiple circulars and generally shopping very carefully. And of course you have the trope of the classic MC dad yelling about lights on and high utility bills. The classic middle class family can afford it all, sure. But it’s a source of stress.

I now think of myself at well-off exaclty because this is all “easy” now.

[Anonymous]

To me, middle class means not needing to have you or your child take out any student loans for your kid to go attend a basic instate school like W&M or UMD + meal plans & living in adequate housing while there, not living with 5 roommates in a squalor apartment. In other words, parents are in a position to save up for DC to have a comfortable existence at college, immersed in academics, research, extracurriculars & socializing, not working at Wawa 25 hours/week.

If attaining that means no flying vacations & having “vacation” be driving to OCMD once every two years, so be it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To me, middle class means not needing to have you or your child take out any student loans for your kid to go attend a basic instate school like W&M or UMD + meal plans & living in adequate housing while there, not living with 5 roommates in a squalor apartment. In other words, parents are in a position to save up for DC to have a comfortable existence at college, immersed in academics, research, extracurriculars & socializing, not working at Wawa 25 hours/week.

If attaining that means no flying vacations & having “vacation” be driving to OCMD once every two years, so be it.

Disagree. Truly middle class kids have to work PT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

We are middle class and we take an international vacation every few years. We are going to Europe this summer and it will cost about the same as a trip to Disney (which we have yet to do, but will probably do in lieu of an international trip in the next few years).

Middle class people buy budget airfare (I bought our flights for this summer 8 months in advance while watching prices like a hawk and keeping my options open for destination cities so that I could take advantage of the very best deal), stay in hostels or inexpensive hotels (there are a LOT of very inexpensive hotels in Europe), and are careful about food and entertainment budgets. Often international vacations make this easier than domestic travel because simply being in a foreign country with different landscape and architecture, where people speak a foreign language, can make a trip feel special and one of a kind. Also a lot of beach vacations abroad are MUCH cheaper than domestic options in the US -- a trip to Aruba could be cheaper than a trip to San Diego if you plan it right.

Meanwhile, a domestic trip to a city like NYC or LA might have cheaper airfare, but it will be next to impossible to find budget accommodations, and the standard entertainment are things like Broadway shows or Universal or Disney, which are all extremely expensive. I know people who will spend more during a single day going to a professional league sporting event in the US than my family will spend in 4-5 vacation days in a foreign city.

Foreign travel can actually be a better option than a lot of domestic travel, other than trips to visit family which tend to be extremely economical (and less fun).

No, you are upper middle class. Middle class people don't go on Europe vacations with their kids.

Nope, HHI of 130k here. We are middle class. We just prioritize foreign travel, only have one kid, and work hard to make it work.

Do middle class people go to Disney? Disney is extremely expensive. But yes, middle class families do go to Disney, they will just budget very carefully, or may forgo other things in order to make it work. Do middle class families go to MLB or NFL games? Yes, even though tickets are very expensive -- they might only go once a season and do it in lieu of a vacation or go lighter on Christmas or birthday gifts to make it happen. International travel is the same. It's just that it sounds more elite and upper class to you. But budget European travel has been a thing for a long time. My MIL is a school teacher and she's been to Europe a dozen times. She's also been to Africa and Mexico. Some during retirement, but also some with her kids. She just values travel more than stuff like home decor, driving a nicer car, or fancy clothes. So most of her disposable income goes to travel.

This is foolish but do you. Maybe you have some other help but doesn't seem wise. And many of the middle class people going to disney shouldn't be going but whatever. You only live once I guess.

You are just mad because you don't know how to travel like this affordably. You tell yourself "well middle class people don't go to Europe!" but really it's just that the idea of planning an affordable trip to Spain or France or Germany for your family overwhelms you, so you take trips where you don't have to budget or work that hard.

I mean I just don't think it's wise. But I get people do it everyday. It's obviously your priority. Middle class people careful about their money and trying to send their kids to college and fund their retirement in full don't but do you.

No, you just don't understand the tradeoffs. One middle class family will have three kids because having a bigger family is important to them, and they will never travel internationally because flying a family of 5 overseas is expensive, plus they have to pay for three college educations.

But if you have on fewer child, you reduce your everyday expenses, can live in a smaller home, have one fewer college education to fund, AND travel is cheaper because one less plane ticket and person to accommodate/feed. So with no increase in income, you can now do a trip to Europe every 2-3 years, without diminishing college savings or retirement.

Also, some middle class people have government pensions that reduce the stress of retirement savings, enabling them to spend more on travel or other things.

One problem with this conversation is that a lot of people think that there is exactly one correct way to live, and that's not true, and it freaks them out when people live differently. But you can arrange your life however you want. Buy a townhouse instead of a detached house, now you can take the kids to Hawaii one year. Have one kid instead of 2, now you can retire early. Buy a home further out, now you can afford and have space for an au pair. And so on and so forth. Middle class people have way more options than you are willing to acknowledge. I wonder why that is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To me, middle class means not needing to have you or your child take out any student loans for your kid to go attend a basic instate school like W&M or UMD + meal plans & living in adequate housing while there, not living with 5 roommates in a squalor apartment. In other words, parents are in a position to save up for DC to have a comfortable existence at college, immersed in academics, research, extracurriculars & socializing, not working at Wawa 25 hours/week.

If attaining that means no flying vacations & having “vacation” be driving to OCMD once every two years, so be it.

Then problem with this is that if you are saving up as much as you are suggesting, then no matter where your child goes to school, the school will just take whatever you saved. Plus if college costs continue to escalate as they have, you might not even have enough to pay for what you are suggesting and still need financial aid, which might include loans. Plus you've also forgone even a couple memorable vacations with your kids to do this.

No thank you. We will take a few vacations that cost 3-4k over the course of our kid's childhood instead. We're still saving for college, but the college cost situation is currently such that I think it is ridiculous to sacrifice happiness and new experiences in order to try and feed it as a middle class family. It really seems like you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To me, middle class means not needing to have you or your child take out any student loans for your kid to go attend a basic instate school like W&M or UMD + meal plans & living in adequate housing while there, not living with 5 roommates in a squalor apartment. In other words, parents are in a position to save up for DC to have a comfortable existence at college, immersed in academics, research, extracurriculars & socializing, not working at Wawa 25 hours/week.

If attaining that means no flying vacations & having “vacation” be driving to OCMD once every two years, so be it.

Then problem with this is that if you are saving up as much as you are suggesting, then no matter where your child goes to school, the school will just take whatever you saved. Plus if college costs continue to escalate as they have, you might not even have enough to pay for what you are suggesting and still need financial aid, which might include loans. Plus you've also forgone even a couple memorable vacations with your kids to do this.

No thank you. We will take a few vacations that cost 3-4k over the course of our kid's childhood instead. We're still saving for college, but the college cost situation is currently such that I think it is ridiculous to sacrifice happiness and new experiences in order to try and feed it as a middle class family. It really seems like you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

You do you.

[Anonymous]

Public school for children
Good cars, not luxury
Can afford rent or small house
Vacations at beach or lake
Saves a bit for retirement and college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Public school for children
Good cars, not luxury
Can afford rent or small house
Vacations at beach or lake
Saves a bit for retirement and college

What kind of public school? BCC? Richard Montgomery? Einstein? Kennedy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public school for children
Good cars, not luxury
Can afford rent or small house
Vacations at beach or lake
Saves a bit for retirement and college

What kind of public school? BCC? Richard Montgomery? Einstein? Kennedy?

The neighborhood school where they housing they can afford is of course.

[Anonymous]

MC means living on a budget and considering costs for everything, even ice cream. It's good for kids to learn these lessons that most UMC will not learn. Almost every UC kid will definitely not learn comparing grocery costs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public school for children
Good cars, not luxury
Can afford rent or small house
Vacations at beach or lake
Saves a bit for retirement and college

What kind of public school? BCC? Richard Montgomery? Einstein? Kennedy?

The neighborhood school where they housing they can afford is of course.

So a homeowner in Great Falls zoned for Langley is “middle class”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public school for children
Good cars, not luxury
Can afford rent or small house
Vacations at beach or lake
Saves a bit for retirement and college

What kind of public school? BCC? Richard Montgomery? Einstein? Kennedy?

The neighborhood school where they housing they can afford is of course.

So a homeowner in Great Falls zoned for Langley is “middle class”?

Very unlikely unless they inherited it outright.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MC means living on a budget and considering costs for everything, even ice cream. It's good for kids to learn these lessons that most UMC will not learn. Almost every UC kid will definitely not learn comparing grocery costs.

I agree with you in principle but I will warn that actually tons of UMC and UC people engage in a weird poverty cosplay where they do fixate on blueberry costs. Especially WASPy types.

[Anonymous]

When I think middle class, I think the following:

- married couple with middle manager type careers.
- HHI anywhere from 200k-300k
- house or a townhouse not in a desirable zip code: Burke, Annandale, warrenton, silver spring etc
- annual trip to the beach with family
- no luxuries; designer clothes, international trips, fancy furniture

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I think middle class, I think the following:

- married couple with middle manager type careers.
- HHI anywhere from 200k-300k
- house or a townhouse not in a desirable zip code: Burke, Annandale, warrenton, silver spring etc
- annual trip to the beach with family
- no luxuries; designer clothes, international trips, fancy furniture

That’s UMC. And on that income with that housing they can afford better vacations, lol.