What does middle class mean to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

So in 2023 the people I know that are "middle" class take local beach vacations. They don't go out of the country to the Bahamas, or Aruba etc. The people I know that are "upper middle class" go on vacations to Aruba, Hawaii, Europe, Mexico etc. These are people with kids. Without kids it's completely different.

Nope, the people you know who are RICH go to Aruba, Hawaii, Europe, Mexico etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

We are middle class and we take an international vacation every few years. We are going to Europe this summer and it will cost about the same as a trip to Disney (which we have yet to do, but will probably do in lieu of an international trip in the next few years).

Middle class people buy budget airfare (I bought our flights for this summer 8 months in advance while watching prices like a hawk and keeping my options open for destination cities so that I could take advantage of the very best deal), stay in hostels or inexpensive hotels (there are a LOT of very inexpensive hotels in Europe), and are careful about food and entertainment budgets. Often international vacations make this easier than domestic travel because simply being in a foreign country with different landscape and architecture, where people speak a foreign language, can make a trip feel special and one of a kind. Also a lot of beach vacations abroad are MUCH cheaper than domestic options in the US -- a trip to Aruba could be cheaper than a trip to San Diego if you plan it right.

Meanwhile, a domestic trip to a city like NYC or LA might have cheaper airfare, but it will be next to impossible to find budget accommodations, and the standard entertainment are things like Broadway shows or Universal or Disney, which are all extremely expensive. I know people who will spend more during a single day going to a professional league sporting event in the US than my family will spend in 4-5 vacation days in a foreign city.

Foreign travel can actually be a better option than a lot of domestic travel, other than trips to visit family which tend to be extremely economical (and less fun).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I largely agree with your definition (and it fits my DH and I) but will note that I think part of the problem with discussing what constitutes working class versus middle class versus UMC or upper class is how much small shifts can change what people feel they can afford.

We know people in DC in their 30s who are dual income with an HHI of around 300k, who do not own a home and do not "feel" they can afford one. Now, I live in a condo. They will not buy a condo. I live in a neighborhood with a bad IB school (which my child does not attend). They will not buy a home with a bad IB school. So they might look at your list and say "we are middle class" but I will look at them and say "no you are not." They are just unwilling to compromise, but everyone compromises except the ultra wealthy. Even rich people compromise. We have rich friends who own gorgeous multi-million dollar homes with bad IB schools who are grumpy that they "have" to send their kids to private. They don't -- they could move to a suburb with amazing public schools and come out way ahead in the real estate deal. They don't want to. This does not magically make them middle class.

+1 We were lower middle class and lived in a blue collar neighborhood in a crappy school district.

When I was very young, we were lower class (food stamps), but as I got older, we moved into middle class.

We had 2 cars (not nice ones), and my parents owned a tiny 3 br house (and I mean tiny) for six people. We went to Disneyland once when I was a kid, and camping trips but never flying trips. We went out to eat on special occasions only. My parents never had any credit card debt or car loans, and that was probably why we could not afford nicer vacations. That was a choice they made. Sure, they could've had nicer things, lived in a nicer area, but that would've meant credit card loans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

So in 2023 the people I know that are "middle" class take local beach vacations. They don't go out of the country to the Bahamas, or Aruba etc. The people I know that are "upper middle class" go on vacations to Aruba, Hawaii, Europe, Mexico etc. These are people with kids. Without kids it's completely different.

Nope, the people you know who are RICH go to Aruba, Hawaii, Europe, Mexico etc.

Either way they are not middle class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

We are middle class and we take an international vacation every few years. We are going to Europe this summer and it will cost about the same as a trip to Disney (which we have yet to do, but will probably do in lieu of an international trip in the next few years).

Middle class people buy budget airfare (I bought our flights for this summer 8 months in advance while watching prices like a hawk and keeping my options open for destination cities so that I could take advantage of the very best deal), stay in hostels or inexpensive hotels (there are a LOT of very inexpensive hotels in Europe), and are careful about food and entertainment budgets. Often international vacations make this easier than domestic travel because simply being in a foreign country with different landscape and architecture, where people speak a foreign language, can make a trip feel special and one of a kind. Also a lot of beach vacations abroad are MUCH cheaper than domestic options in the US -- a trip to Aruba could be cheaper than a trip to San Diego if you plan it right.

Meanwhile, a domestic trip to a city like NYC or LA might have cheaper airfare, but it will be next to impossible to find budget accommodations, and the standard entertainment are things like Broadway shows or Universal or Disney, which are all extremely expensive. I know people who will spend more during a single day going to a professional league sporting event in the US than my family will spend in 4-5 vacation days in a foreign city.

Foreign travel can actually be a better option than a lot of domestic travel, other than trips to visit family which tend to be extremely economical (and less fun).

No, you are upper middle class. Middle class people don't go on Europe vacations with their kids.

[Anonymous]

Middle class don’t vacation. You all are exhausting in what alternate reality you live in.

[Anonymous]

Have housing. Can be rental, condo, SFH
Have job. Can be salaried or hourly. Covers all expenses plus retirement and a bit of fun.
Have transportation. Can be owned or tented car. Can be public transportation.
Can feed and clothe your family decently without a lot of pressure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Middle class don’t vacation. You all are exhausting in what alternate reality you live in.

Correct. I grew up MC. Went on a plane once before the age of 23; we went to Disney. Otherwise, “vacations” were driving to Wildwood (lived in Pa) to stay in a motel as a family once every 2-3 years, for about 4 days each time. No, we were not poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Middle class don’t vacation. You all are exhausting in what alternate reality you live in.

They might take vacations, but they are places you can drive to, like the beach, or they go camping, or something. When I was growing up, we had a used camper that we took on vacation, or we stayed at my grandparents' cabin near a lake (and it was not a fancy-schmancy cabin, just a house in the woods near a lake). They aren't flying a family of four on vacation every year. Or if they are, they are going into debt to do so, which is not smart. The middle class people I know and knew growing up either budget carefully or they don't stay middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

I grew up actually middle class, and we did not take a vacation that involved a plane flight until I was in high school. "International" meant Canada. My parents supported a family of four, but it required careful budgeting, and there was not a ton of money for extras. We went out to eat maybe once a month. People define middle class based on feelings, which is silly, and based on what they can buy, which is not how it works. It's defined by where your income falls on the spectrum of income, even if you consider that based on region rather than nationally.

But this is the problem with defining a "middle class lifestyle". Because if you just look at income, people can live vastly different lives with the exact same income.

Number of kids matters a lot. I also didn't take plane trips as a kid, but I'm from a family of 6, so in order for us to be able to travel like that, we basically would have needed to be rich, which we weren't. But I wouldn't say that our lack of plane travel meant we were middle class, either, because my family's income was probably higher than a lot of families that *could* do plane travel, just with fewer kids.

Similar with the "international travel" thing. If you live in certain parts of the US, international travel is cheaper and easier. I never traveled internationally as a kid, I do so every few years now, but that is partly because we live near 3 major airports with lots of flights and if we really want to go abroad, we have many options for making that work more affordably. It's cheaper for us to go to France than to California sometimes.

Other factors: city, suburb, or small town. All heavily impact how a family spends money and therefore a family could have identical incomes but live very differently in different locations. Also, proximity of extended family. People with close extended family can often save a lot of money on various expenses (especially child care) which frees up money for other things like travel or dining and entertainment. Also sometimes middle class families will have grandparents who will foot the bill for things like entertainment, kid's activities, and travel, which enables a more extravagant lifestyle than their income technically affords.

And so on. You are right that people focus too much on how middle class or UMC is supposed to "feel." But you are wrong that simply looking at income will tell you what a middle class lifestyle looks like. People will argue endlessly about it because circumstances can vary so much from family to family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middle class don’t vacation. You all are exhausting in what alternate reality you live in.

They might take vacations, but they are places you can drive to, like the beach, or they go camping, or something. When I was growing up, we had a used camper that we took on vacation, or we stayed at my grandparents' cabin near a lake (and it was not a fancy-schmancy cabin, just a house in the woods near a lake). They aren't flying a family of four on vacation every year. Or if they are, they are going into debt to do so, which is not smart. The middle class people I know and knew growing up either budget carefully or they don't stay middle class.

I agree. I grew up middle class and my first plane ride was at 8 to disney, but only b/c my mom went back to work and had a conference. All of our other vacations were to the beach on the east coast. As we got more money we went on more trips as I got older but not like Europe or anything. Anyway, my life is different now. I went into a high paying field, so I've been all over the world and to Europe many times at this point. But I also don't have kids yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

We are middle class and we take an international vacation every few years. We are going to Europe this summer and it will cost about the same as a trip to Disney (which we have yet to do, but will probably do in lieu of an international trip in the next few years).

Middle class people buy budget airfare (I bought our flights for this summer 8 months in advance while watching prices like a hawk and keeping my options open for destination cities so that I could take advantage of the very best deal), stay in hostels or inexpensive hotels (there are a LOT of very inexpensive hotels in Europe), and are careful about food and entertainment budgets. Often international vacations make this easier than domestic travel because simply being in a foreign country with different landscape and architecture, where people speak a foreign language, can make a trip feel special and one of a kind. Also a lot of beach vacations abroad are MUCH cheaper than domestic options in the US -- a trip to Aruba could be cheaper than a trip to San Diego if you plan it right.

Meanwhile, a domestic trip to a city like NYC or LA might have cheaper airfare, but it will be next to impossible to find budget accommodations, and the standard entertainment are things like Broadway shows or Universal or Disney, which are all extremely expensive. I know people who will spend more during a single day going to a professional league sporting event in the US than my family will spend in 4-5 vacation days in a foreign city.

Foreign travel can actually be a better option than a lot of domestic travel, other than trips to visit family which tend to be extremely economical (and less fun).

No, you are upper middle class. Middle class people don't go on Europe vacations with their kids.

Nope, HHI of 130k here. We are middle class. We just prioritize foreign travel, only have one kid, and work hard to make it work.

Do middle class people go to Disney? Disney is extremely expensive. But yes, middle class families do go to Disney, they will just budget very carefully, or may forgo other things in order to make it work. Do middle class families go to MLB or NFL games? Yes, even though tickets are very expensive -- they might only go once a season and do it in lieu of a vacation or go lighter on Christmas or birthday gifts to make it happen. International travel is the same. It's just that it sounds more elite and upper class to you. But budget European travel has been a thing for a long time. My MIL is a school teacher and she's been to Europe a dozen times. She's also been to Africa and Mexico. Some during retirement, but also some with her kids. She just values travel more than stuff like home decor, driving a nicer car, or fancy clothes. So most of her disposable income goes to travel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

We are middle class and we take an international vacation every few years. We are going to Europe this summer and it will cost about the same as a trip to Disney (which we have yet to do, but will probably do in lieu of an international trip in the next few years).

Middle class people buy budget airfare (I bought our flights for this summer 8 months in advance while watching prices like a hawk and keeping my options open for destination cities so that I could take advantage of the very best deal), stay in hostels or inexpensive hotels (there are a LOT of very inexpensive hotels in Europe), and are careful about food and entertainment budgets. Often international vacations make this easier than domestic travel because simply being in a foreign country with different landscape and architecture, where people speak a foreign language, can make a trip feel special and one of a kind. Also a lot of beach vacations abroad are MUCH cheaper than domestic options in the US -- a trip to Aruba could be cheaper than a trip to San Diego if you plan it right.

Meanwhile, a domestic trip to a city like NYC or LA might have cheaper airfare, but it will be next to impossible to find budget accommodations, and the standard entertainment are things like Broadway shows or Universal or Disney, which are all extremely expensive. I know people who will spend more during a single day going to a professional league sporting event in the US than my family will spend in 4-5 vacation days in a foreign city.

Foreign travel can actually be a better option than a lot of domestic travel, other than trips to visit family which tend to be extremely economical (and less fun).

No, you are upper middle class. Middle class people don't go on Europe vacations with their kids.

Nope, HHI of 130k here. We are middle class. We just prioritize foreign travel, only have one kid, and work hard to make it work.

Do middle class people go to Disney? Disney is extremely expensive. But yes, middle class families do go to Disney, they will just budget very carefully, or may forgo other things in order to make it work. Do middle class families go to MLB or NFL games? Yes, even though tickets are very expensive -- they might only go once a season and do it in lieu of a vacation or go lighter on Christmas or birthday gifts to make it happen. International travel is the same. It's just that it sounds more elite and upper class to you. But budget European travel has been a thing for a long time. My MIL is a school teacher and she's been to Europe a dozen times. She's also been to Africa and Mexico. Some during retirement, but also some with her kids. She just values travel more than stuff like home decor, driving a nicer car, or fancy clothes. So most of her disposable income goes to travel.

This is foolish but do you. Maybe you have some other help but doesn't seem wise. And many of the middle class people going to disney shouldn't be going but whatever. You only live once I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

We are middle class and we take an international vacation every few years. We are going to Europe this summer and it will cost about the same as a trip to Disney (which we have yet to do, but will probably do in lieu of an international trip in the next few years).

Middle class people buy budget airfare (I bought our flights for this summer 8 months in advance while watching prices like a hawk and keeping my options open for destination cities so that I could take advantage of the very best deal), stay in hostels or inexpensive hotels (there are a LOT of very inexpensive hotels in Europe), and are careful about food and entertainment budgets. Often international vacations make this easier than domestic travel because simply being in a foreign country with different landscape and architecture, where people speak a foreign language, can make a trip feel special and one of a kind. Also a lot of beach vacations abroad are MUCH cheaper than domestic options in the US -- a trip to Aruba could be cheaper than a trip to San Diego if you plan it right.

Meanwhile, a domestic trip to a city like NYC or LA might have cheaper airfare, but it will be next to impossible to find budget accommodations, and the standard entertainment are things like Broadway shows or Universal or Disney, which are all extremely expensive. I know people who will spend more during a single day going to a professional league sporting event in the US than my family will spend in 4-5 vacation days in a foreign city.

Foreign travel can actually be a better option than a lot of domestic travel, other than trips to visit family which tend to be extremely economical (and less fun).

No, you are upper middle class. Middle class people don't go on Europe vacations with their kids.

Nope, HHI of 130k here. We are middle class. We just prioritize foreign travel, only have one kid, and work hard to make it work.

Do middle class people go to Disney? Disney is extremely expensive. But yes, middle class families do go to Disney, they will just budget very carefully, or may forgo other things in order to make it work. Do middle class families go to MLB or NFL games? Yes, even though tickets are very expensive -- they might only go once a season and do it in lieu of a vacation or go lighter on Christmas or birthday gifts to make it happen. International travel is the same. It's just that it sounds more elite and upper class to you. But budget European travel has been a thing for a long time. My MIL is a school teacher and she's been to Europe a dozen times. She's also been to Africa and Mexico. Some during retirement, but also some with her kids. She just values travel more than stuff like home decor, driving a nicer car, or fancy clothes. So most of her disposable income goes to travel.

This is foolish but do you. Maybe you have some other help but doesn't seem wise. And many of the middle class people going to disney shouldn't be going but whatever. You only live once I guess.

You are just mad because you don't know how to travel like this affordably. You tell yourself "well middle class people don't go to Europe!" but really it's just that the idea of planning an affordable trip to Spain or France or Germany for your family overwhelms you, so you take trips where you don't have to budget or work that hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

We are middle class and we take an international vacation every few years. We are going to Europe this summer and it will cost about the same as a trip to Disney (which we have yet to do, but will probably do in lieu of an international trip in the next few years).

Middle class people buy budget airfare (I bought our flights for this summer 8 months in advance while watching prices like a hawk and keeping my options open for destination cities so that I could take advantage of the very best deal), stay in hostels or inexpensive hotels (there are a LOT of very inexpensive hotels in Europe), and are careful about food and entertainment budgets. Often international vacations make this easier than domestic travel because simply being in a foreign country with different landscape and architecture, where people speak a foreign language, can make a trip feel special and one of a kind. Also a lot of beach vacations abroad are MUCH cheaper than domestic options in the US -- a trip to Aruba could be cheaper than a trip to San Diego if you plan it right.

Meanwhile, a domestic trip to a city like NYC or LA might have cheaper airfare, but it will be next to impossible to find budget accommodations, and the standard entertainment are things like Broadway shows or Universal or Disney, which are all extremely expensive. I know people who will spend more during a single day going to a professional league sporting event in the US than my family will spend in 4-5 vacation days in a foreign city.

Foreign travel can actually be a better option than a lot of domestic travel, other than trips to visit family which tend to be extremely economical (and less fun).

No, you are upper middle class. Middle class people don't go on Europe vacations with their kids.

Nope, HHI of 130k here. We are middle class. We just prioritize foreign travel, only have one kid, and work hard to make it work.

Do middle class people go to Disney? Disney is extremely expensive. But yes, middle class families do go to Disney, they will just budget very carefully, or may forgo other things in order to make it work. Do middle class families go to MLB or NFL games? Yes, even though tickets are very expensive -- they might only go once a season and do it in lieu of a vacation or go lighter on Christmas or birthday gifts to make it happen. International travel is the same. It's just that it sounds more elite and upper class to you. But budget European travel has been a thing for a long time. My MIL is a school teacher and she's been to Europe a dozen times. She's also been to Africa and Mexico. Some during retirement, but also some with her kids. She just values travel more than stuff like home decor, driving a nicer car, or fancy clothes. So most of her disposable income goes to travel.

This is foolish but do you. Maybe you have some other help but doesn't seem wise. And many of the middle class people going to disney shouldn't be going but whatever. You only live once I guess.

You are just mad because you don't know how to travel like this affordably. You tell yourself "well middle class people don't go to Europe!" but really it's just that the idea of planning an affordable trip to Spain or France or Germany for your family overwhelms you, so you take trips where you don't have to budget or work that hard.

I mean I just don't think it's wise. But I get people do it everyday. It's obviously your priority. Middle class people careful about their money and trying to send their kids to college and fund their retirement in full don't but do you.