Abbott elementary takes on the Charter School Movement

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

Charters are full of at-risk kids, Latino kids, and Black kids. And I don’t think it’s true that charters in DC kick kids out like that. Stats, please? Also, arguably, it’s a feature not a bug that kids with severe behavior issues can be removed. DCPS should make greater use of alternative schools as well.

They don't kick kids out! And also, I'm glad they kick kids out, it's why I ranked them so high!

Here’s the actual data showing suspension and expulsion rates - very low.

https://dcpcsb.egnyte.com/dl/rc5LdC1UK6

And yes, I think both DCPS and charters should have the ability to engage in effective discipline.

More than 5% is very low? Or you believe that all the "mid year withdrawals" moved out of town?

Compare to the most recent DCPS data that google provides, showing that literally no kids were expelled in 2019. (https://dcschoolreportcard.org/leas/1-0000/school-safety-discipline?lang=en) So yes, the schools that "counsel out" the 5% of their student body they don't want to deal with, *after* starting from the premise that all these kids come from homes with involved parents, should be outperforming public schools. They rarely do, though.

Did you look at the link? the charter expulsion rate was 0.1% in 2021.

And, I have no issues with kids being counseled out of charters that offer advanced academics as part of their model.

Did you look at the link? The expulsion rate was 0.1% and the Mid-Year Withdrawal rate was 5.3%. They are counseling out (that's charter for "expelling") roughly 5% of their students. I know you have no issues with them doing it, which is why I laughed at your assertion that they don't do it, and also, good for them for doing it. Now that you've admitted twice that they do get rid of kids they don't want to deal with, what is the point of continuing to argue that they don't?

[Anonymous]

Charter schools bleed money from the public schools. And, charter schools don't have the same requirements as public schools or any oversite. It's a crap shoot, could be amazing or a total disaster! More often than not, a disaster

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

This is a really reasonable argument. My question to you is: what’s the alternative?

That’s not rhetorical. I’d really like to know what your ideas are for improving this.

Make the lottery opt out and not opt in? The problem with a failing school is that the families who want to escape are the families that you want to keep if you ever want the school to turn around. The pro-charter argument is give those kids a realistic chance to succeed, the anti is that you are just depriving to most in need kids of resources. I don’t think one side is right to wrong, it’s more philosophical

How would an opt-out lottery work, practically? The lottery isn't a binary choice, you have to actually list schools. You can't have families who don't want immersion all of a sudden have their kids in a mandarin immersion school. Plus, distance matters - I'm not willing to commute to far away charters, but some families are. And that undermines neighborhood schools even more - I chose for my kid to stay in my inbounds DCPS, but if the lottery was opt out, I might have just went with it (if trying to lottery is essentially the default). Not sure how this works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Charter schools bleed money from the public schools. And, charter schools don't have the same requirements as public schools or any oversite. It's a crap shoot, could be amazing or a total disaster! More often than not, a disaster

New poster. Charters don’t actually take any money from public schools directly. All schools are funded per pupil. If a public school’s enrollment is suffering, I think they should do a better job of figuring out why people don’t want to send their kid there versus blaming the school they opted to send their kids to. I do agree that charters need more oversight and that many of them are absolutely terrible and not actually a better option than the public alternative. That being said, I think it’s clear that parents want something that isn’t necessarily offered in the traditional public school setting. It would be better for districts to offer those options rather than fighting against them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

Charters are full of at-risk kids, Latino kids, and Black kids. And I don’t think it’s true that charters in DC kick kids out like that. Stats, please? Also, arguably, it’s a feature not a bug that kids with severe behavior issues can be removed. DCPS should make greater use of alternative schools as well.

They don't kick kids out! And also, I'm glad they kick kids out, it's why I ranked them so high!

Here’s the actual data showing suspension and expulsion rates - very low.

https://dcpcsb.egnyte.com/dl/rc5LdC1UK6

And yes, I think both DCPS and charters should have the ability to engage in effective discipline.

More than 5% is very low? Or you believe that all the "mid year withdrawals" moved out of town?

Compare to the most recent DCPS data that google provides, showing that literally no kids were expelled in 2019. (https://dcschoolreportcard.org/leas/1-0000/school-safety-discipline?lang=en) So yes, the schools that "counsel out" the 5% of their student body they don't want to deal with, *after* starting from the premise that all these kids come from homes with involved parents, should be outperforming public schools. They rarely do, though.

Did you look at the link? the charter expulsion rate was 0.1% in 2021.

And, I have no issues with kids being counseled out of charters that offer advanced academics as part of their model.

Did you look at the link? The expulsion rate was 0.1% and the Mid-Year Withdrawal rate was 5.3%. They are counseling out (that's charter for "expelling") roughly 5% of their students. I know you have no issues with them doing it, which is why I laughed at your assertion that they don't do it, and also, good for them for doing it. Now that you've admitted twice that they do get rid of kids they don't want to deal with, what is the point of continuing to argue that they don't?

So your claim is that charters are lying in the data about withdrawals being involuntary? Got evidence for that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

This is a really reasonable argument. My question to you is: what’s the alternative?

That’s not rhetorical. I’d really like to know what your ideas are for improving this.

Each ward should have one or two immersion elementary schools and one magnet middle/high school. The lottery system should add a Ward preference for those schools, and structure bus routes within the Ward to get kids to/from school (like the Deal bus). There is clearly appetite for these offerings (along with Montessori and, to a lesser extent, arts programming) but charter schools, despite what they all write when applying for a charter, are distributing the offerings in an imbalanced way and entire segments of the city are not being served. We also need differentiation in middle and high school to keep families long-term, but since charters aren't offering that either I'm not sure it's relevant to this question.

More chances to "win" the lottery means more people of means will stay around to play it. And putting the "winning" schools in W7&8 instead of promising you're going to and then opening in W5 means that kids don't have to trek across the City to get a decent public education.

Lol. You think WTUs and progressives would like this plan either?

I'm not playing shirts vs skins like you seem to be. I'm trying to help kids in a fair way, and answer the PP's question.

I don't think there's any reason to assume teachers would be against it, except for the differentiation which is a bit outside the scope of the original question.

You’re being naive though. It is very much “shirts and skins” in that the exact same people who are against charters are also against honors, magnets, homework, and anything else that they see as against “equity.” In fact, dismantling honors programs and magnets and neighborhood schools is their new target now that they have lost the charter battle.

Moreover, this TV show created this story line specifically to send a political message. So yes, it is appropriate to point out that your response is inapposite.

I'm not naive, and I'm anti-charter, pro-honors, pro-magnets, and pro-homework (in upper grades). But so long as you feel empowered to tell people what they think instead of listening to them when they tell you, I guess you get to feel very sophisticated and solve nothing, propose nothing, and LOL when adults are having a conversation. It takes all kinds.

you’re naive if you don’t see that being “anti-charter” puts you in the camp of people who would ardently fight all your other ideas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

Charters are full of at-risk kids, Latino kids, and Black kids. And I don’t think it’s true that charters in DC kick kids out like that. Stats, please? Also, arguably, it’s a feature not a bug that kids with severe behavior issues can be removed. DCPS should make greater use of alternative schools as well.

They don't kick kids out! And also, I'm glad they kick kids out, it's why I ranked them so high!

Here’s the actual data showing suspension and expulsion rates - very low.

https://dcpcsb.egnyte.com/dl/rc5LdC1UK6

And yes, I think both DCPS and charters should have the ability to engage in effective discipline.

More than 5% is very low? Or you believe that all the "mid year withdrawals" moved out of town?

Compare to the most recent DCPS data that google provides, showing that literally no kids were expelled in 2019. (https://dcschoolreportcard.org/leas/1-0000/school-safety-discipline?lang=en) So yes, the schools that "counsel out" the 5% of their student body they don't want to deal with, *after* starting from the premise that all these kids come from homes with involved parents, should be outperforming public schools. They rarely do, though.

Did you look at the link? the charter expulsion rate was 0.1% in 2021.

And, I have no issues with kids being counseled out of charters that offer advanced academics as part of their model.

Did you look at the link? The expulsion rate was 0.1% and the Mid-Year Withdrawal rate was 5.3%. They are counseling out (that's charter for "expelling") roughly 5% of their students. I know you have no issues with them doing it, which is why I laughed at your assertion that they don't do it, and also, good for them for doing it. Now that you've admitted twice that they do get rid of kids they don't want to deal with, what is the point of continuing to argue that they don't?

So your claim is that charters are lying in the data about withdrawals being involuntary? Got evidence for that?

Oh hey, I just looked up the data for Basis, the charter everyone claims “pushed kids out.” Looks like their withdrawal rate is well below DC average. So.

https://dcschoolreportcard.org/schools/168-3068/student-movement

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

Charters are full of at-risk kids, Latino kids, and Black kids. And I don’t think it’s true that charters in DC kick kids out like that. Stats, please? Also, arguably, it’s a feature not a bug that kids with severe behavior issues can be removed. DCPS should make greater use of alternative schools as well.

They don't kick kids out! And also, I'm glad they kick kids out, it's why I ranked them so high!

Here’s the actual data showing suspension and expulsion rates - very low.

https://dcpcsb.egnyte.com/dl/rc5LdC1UK6

And yes, I think both DCPS and charters should have the ability to engage in effective discipline.

More than 5% is very low? Or you believe that all the "mid year withdrawals" moved out of town?

Compare to the most recent DCPS data that google provides, showing that literally no kids were expelled in 2019. (https://dcschoolreportcard.org/leas/1-0000/school-safety-discipline?lang=en) So yes, the schools that "counsel out" the 5% of their student body they don't want to deal with, *after* starting from the premise that all these kids come from homes with involved parents, should be outperforming public schools. They rarely do, though.

Did you look at the link? the charter expulsion rate was 0.1% in 2021.

And, I have no issues with kids being counseled out of charters that offer advanced academics as part of their model.

Did you look at the link? The expulsion rate was 0.1% and the Mid-Year Withdrawal rate was 5.3%. They are counseling out (that's charter for "expelling") roughly 5% of their students. I know you have no issues with them doing it, which is why I laughed at your assertion that they don't do it, and also, good for them for doing it. Now that you've admitted twice that they do get rid of kids they don't want to deal with, what is the point of continuing to argue that they don't?

Is it a reasonable assumption that the mid-year withdrawal rate is people counseled out? That seems like a big leap to me. DC is a hugely transient city. Plus, with charters, you have a guaranteed spot at your local IB, so your kid might be doing fine, but you might be struggling with the commute or realize that honestly, it's not what you were hoping for or not better than you IB, and so you leave. Assuming that all (or even most) of that 5.3% is kids who were counseled out seems like a huge leap to me.

Basis for example has lower numbers for withdrawal rates - would be surprising if this was driven by kids counseled out (since Basis has such a rep for being demanding) but makes sense if it's driven by people moving, as you might be more likely to get families who are more settled.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thanks to those who replied to my questions about Philadelphia schools and DCPS/DC public charter history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

Charters are full of at-risk kids, Latino kids, and Black kids. And I don’t think it’s true that charters in DC kick kids out like that. Stats, please? Also, arguably, it’s a feature not a bug that kids with severe behavior issues can be removed. DCPS should make greater use of alternative schools as well.

They don't kick kids out! And also, I'm glad they kick kids out, it's why I ranked them so high!

Here’s the actual data showing suspension and expulsion rates - very low.

https://dcpcsb.egnyte.com/dl/rc5LdC1UK6

And yes, I think both DCPS and charters should have the ability to engage in effective discipline.

More than 5% is very low? Or you believe that all the "mid year withdrawals" moved out of town?

Compare to the most recent DCPS data that google provides, showing that literally no kids were expelled in 2019. (https://dcschoolreportcard.org/leas/1-0000/school-safety-discipline?lang=en) So yes, the schools that "counsel out" the 5% of their student body they don't want to deal with, *after* starting from the premise that all these kids come from homes with involved parents, should be outperforming public schools. They rarely do, though.

Did you look at the link? the charter expulsion rate was 0.1% in 2021.

And, I have no issues with kids being counseled out of charters that offer advanced academics as part of their model.

Did you look at the link? The expulsion rate was 0.1% and the Mid-Year Withdrawal rate was 5.3%. They are counseling out (that's charter for "expelling") roughly 5% of their students. I know you have no issues with them doing it, which is why I laughed at your assertion that they don't do it, and also, good for them for doing it. Now that you've admitted twice that they do get rid of kids they don't want to deal with, what is the point of continuing to argue that they don't?

Is it a reasonable assumption that the mid-year withdrawal rate is people counseled out? That seems like a big leap to me. DC is a hugely transient city. Plus, with charters, you have a guaranteed spot at your local IB, so your kid might be doing fine, but you might be struggling with the commute or realize that honestly, it's not what you were hoping for or not better than you IB, and so you leave. Assuming that all (or even most) of that 5.3% is kids who were counseled out seems like a huge leap to me.

Basis for example has lower numbers for withdrawal rates - would be surprising if this was driven by kids counseled out (since Basis has such a rep for being demanding) but makes sense if it's driven by people moving, as you might be more likely to get families who are more settled.

Where do you think those kids go who are “counseled out” of charters?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Charter schools bleed money from the public schools. And, charter schools don't have the same requirements as public schools or any oversite. It's a crap shoot, could be amazing or a total disaster! More often than not, a disaster

New poster. Charters don’t actually take any money from public schools directly. All schools are funded per pupil. If a public school’s enrollment is suffering, I think they should do a better job of figuring out why people don’t want to send their kid there versus blaming the school they opted to send their kids to. I do agree that charters need more oversight and that many of them are absolutely terrible and not actually a better option than the public alternative. That being said, I think it’s clear that parents want something that isn’t necessarily offered in the traditional public school setting. It would be better for districts to offer those options rather than fighting against them.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

Charters are full of at-risk kids, Latino kids, and Black kids. And I don’t think it’s true that charters in DC kick kids out like that. Stats, please? Also, arguably, it’s a feature not a bug that kids with severe behavior issues can be removed. DCPS should make greater use of alternative schools as well.

They don't kick kids out! And also, I'm glad they kick kids out, it's why I ranked them so high!

Here’s the actual data showing suspension and expulsion rates - very low.

https://dcpcsb.egnyte.com/dl/rc5LdC1UK6

And yes, I think both DCPS and charters should have the ability to engage in effective discipline.

More than 5% is very low? Or you believe that all the "mid year withdrawals" moved out of town?

Compare to the most recent DCPS data that google provides, showing that literally no kids were expelled in 2019. (https://dcschoolreportcard.org/leas/1-0000/school-safety-discipline?lang=en) So yes, the schools that "counsel out" the 5% of their student body they don't want to deal with, *after* starting from the premise that all these kids come from homes with involved parents, should be outperforming public schools. They rarely do, though.

Did you look at the link? the charter expulsion rate was 0.1% in 2021.

And, I have no issues with kids being counseled out of charters that offer advanced academics as part of their model.

Did you look at the link? The expulsion rate was 0.1% and the Mid-Year Withdrawal rate was 5.3%. They are counseling out (that's charter for "expelling") roughly 5% of their students. I know you have no issues with them doing it, which is why I laughed at your assertion that they don't do it, and also, good for them for doing it. Now that you've admitted twice that they do get rid of kids they don't want to deal with, what is the point of continuing to argue that they don't?

Is it a reasonable assumption that the mid-year withdrawal rate is people counseled out? That seems like a big leap to me. DC is a hugely transient city. Plus, with charters, you have a guaranteed spot at your local IB, so your kid might be doing fine, but you might be struggling with the commute or realize that honestly, it's not what you were hoping for or not better than you IB, and so you leave. Assuming that all (or even most) of that 5.3% is kids who were counseled out seems like a huge leap to me.

Basis for example has lower numbers for withdrawal rates - would be surprising if this was driven by kids counseled out (since Basis has such a rep for being demanding) but makes sense if it's driven by people moving, as you might be more likely to get families who are more settled.

Where do you think those kids go who are “counseled out” of charters?

I have no idea. The question here seems to be how much (if at all) that even happens. And I'm not convinced by the withdrawal rate that it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love Abbott Elementary and am wary of public schools run by multi-state private operators, and I have been wondering if the charter takeover thing is specific to Philadelphia or other districts where local or state laws cover that kind of thing.

I'm aware of DCPS taking over 2-3 failing DC public charter schools, but the idea of the reverse -- a school district wanting a charter operator to take over one of their schools -- was new to me. Public charter schools have taken over former DCPS buildings, but only after DCPS had decided to close them, is that correct?

Does anyone have experience with the Philadelphia school system or another place where hostile takeovers by charter operators happen?

I still love the show, but I fear people who are anti-charter will use the storyline to stir up a fear of something that isn't a universal threat. I do wish people will be informed and be vocal to prevent the spread of the legality of that kind of public school district/public charter school operator takeover activity. And support of public charter schools only for filling in gaps and to offer special programming isn't that.

I first recall reading about it in Hartford, CT in the 1980s or early 90s. Not new.

If schools are failing, parents don't care about the larger public policy. They are thirsty in a desert and just want something to drink.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

Charters are full of at-risk kids, Latino kids, and Black kids. And I don’t think it’s true that charters in DC kick kids out like that. Stats, please? Also, arguably, it’s a feature not a bug that kids with severe behavior issues can be removed. DCPS should make greater use of alternative schools as well.

They don't kick kids out! And also, I'm glad they kick kids out, it's why I ranked them so high!

Here’s the actual data showing suspension and expulsion rates - very low.

https://dcpcsb.egnyte.com/dl/rc5LdC1UK6

And yes, I think both DCPS and charters should have the ability to engage in effective discipline.

More than 5% is very low? Or you believe that all the "mid year withdrawals" moved out of town?

Compare to the most recent DCPS data that google provides, showing that literally no kids were expelled in 2019. (https://dcschoolreportcard.org/leas/1-0000/school-safety-discipline?lang=en) So yes, the schools that "counsel out" the 5% of their student body they don't want to deal with, *after* starting from the premise that all these kids come from homes with involved parents, should be outperforming public schools. They rarely do, though.

Did you look at the link? the charter expulsion rate was 0.1% in 2021.

And, I have no issues with kids being counseled out of charters that offer advanced academics as part of their model.

Did you look at the link? The expulsion rate was 0.1% and the Mid-Year Withdrawal rate was 5.3%. They are counseling out (that's charter for "expelling") roughly 5% of their students. I know you have no issues with them doing it, which is why I laughed at your assertion that they don't do it, and also, good for them for doing it. Now that you've admitted twice that they do get rid of kids they don't want to deal with, what is the point of continuing to argue that they don't?

So your claim is that charters are lying in the data about withdrawals being involuntary? Got evidence for that?

Oh hey, I just looked up the data for Basis, the charter everyone claims “pushed kids out.” Looks like their withdrawal rate is well below DC average. So.

https://dcschoolreportcard.org/schools/168-3068/student-movement

that's the mid-year withdrawal rate. BASIS loses 3-5% of their students every year, and 10% after 8th grade. they start with about 125 kids in 5th grade and end with 70 kids in 12th. these numbers are straight from the Head of School.

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Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, an EOTR DCPS elementary school was taken over by a charter--not just that the DCPS was closed and a charter used the building, but a regular school that had to take all in-bound kids was operated by a charter. The charter gave up. They weren't getting the test scores they wanted, and their model wasn't working with the kids they were getting and the churn throughout the year.

Charters have the opportunity to have a student body where all the kids have a grownup that planned seven months ahead and filled out the lottery forms and enrollment paperwork. They can kick out kids who come late, miss school, misbehave, or show up without uniforms and materials. DCPS schools do not have that opportunity.

Honestly this is the main point, and most of the time the charters *still* don't outperform DCPS w/r/t test scores. But so many charter supporters ignore it entirely, or make these specious arguments about how "they take some IEPs too!" as if there's anything approaching an apples to apples comparison to be made. But the truth is they just want to avoid at risk kids, and if their avoidance also drains money from the schools left behind to take care of those kids: so what?

Charters are full of at-risk kids, Latino kids, and Black kids. And I don’t think it’s true that charters in DC kick kids out like that. Stats, please? Also, arguably, it’s a feature not a bug that kids with severe behavior issues can be removed. DCPS should make greater use of alternative schools as well.

They don't kick kids out! And also, I'm glad they kick kids out, it's why I ranked them so high!

Here’s the actual data showing suspension and expulsion rates - very low.

https://dcpcsb.egnyte.com/dl/rc5LdC1UK6

And yes, I think both DCPS and charters should have the ability to engage in effective discipline.

More than 5% is very low? Or you believe that all the "mid year withdrawals" moved out of town?

Compare to the most recent DCPS data that google provides, showing that literally no kids were expelled in 2019. (https://dcschoolreportcard.org/leas/1-0000/school-safety-discipline?lang=en) So yes, the schools that "counsel out" the 5% of their student body they don't want to deal with, *after* starting from the premise that all these kids come from homes with involved parents, should be outperforming public schools. They rarely do, though.

Did you look at the link? the charter expulsion rate was 0.1% in 2021.

And, I have no issues with kids being counseled out of charters that offer advanced academics as part of their model.

Did you look at the link? The expulsion rate was 0.1% and the Mid-Year Withdrawal rate was 5.3%. They are counseling out (that's charter for "expelling") roughly 5% of their students. I know you have no issues with them doing it, which is why I laughed at your assertion that they don't do it, and also, good for them for doing it. Now that you've admitted twice that they do get rid of kids they don't want to deal with, what is the point of continuing to argue that they don't?

Is it a reasonable assumption that the mid-year withdrawal rate is people counseled out? That seems like a big leap to me. DC is a hugely transient city. Plus, with charters, you have a guaranteed spot at your local IB, so your kid might be doing fine, but you might be struggling with the commute or realize that honestly, it's not what you were hoping for or not better than you IB, and so you leave. Assuming that all (or even most) of that 5.3% is kids who were counseled out seems like a huge leap to me.

Basis for example has lower numbers for withdrawal rates - would be surprising if this was driven by kids counseled out (since Basis has such a rep for being demanding) but makes sense if it's driven by people moving, as you might be more likely to get families who are more settled.

Where do you think those kids go who are “counseled out” of charters?

I have no idea. The question here seems to be how much (if at all) that even happens. And I'm not convinced by the withdrawal rate that it does.

I have an idea! Back to their IBs, which is incredibly disruptive for multiple reasons. Also the fact that IBs can't perfectly plan class sizes and have to take all IB comers at all times is also a way in which they are very different than charters. Lots of charters don't even back fill! So when they still have worse test scores, it's actually impressive.