Help DS Decide: Duke ED or Harvard/Princeton REA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure if anyone else is making (or has already made) the same choice with their family with some combination of these schools. DS is the oldest and going to be the first one we send off to college, so it's our first crack at the egg. DS is a great kid and has become more than we could have hoped for, and his current plan is to study economics/public policy to go alongside something more quantitative (perhaps statistics). I know it's more than likely he'll change his mind at least once in college, as often happens, so we're focusing more on his general likes and dislikes. His guidance counselor says DS would have a chance (of course no guarantees) at any school: for context he has a 1580 on his SAT, currently on track to be salutatorian of his class, captain of a varsity sport and playing another, spends his time volunteering generously, is very active in clubs at school, and has multiple national level awards. We have run financial aid estimates at his top choice schools and we feel comfortable with the cost, and we expect he'll be working in some capacity at least during the summers.

He likes Duke for many reasons: great academics, great school spirit, and a competitive club sports culture. We made a last-minute visit with him last month and he was in love with the campus and enjoyed the students he talked with very much. It overall seems like "the best" fit for him, which is why he is considering early decision there. We'd be more than happy to send him there as well, the alumni network seems very strong.

On the other hand, Harvard and Princeton were his longtime dream schools, and although Duke has caught up for him it is still a "newer" school for us, as he has mentally been preparing to try for Harvard or Princeton for a few years now.

We're unsure if he should be limiting himself to just one choice by doing early decision, or if he should keep his options more open. Another big factor is from what we've read, Duke early decision seems to provide an advantage for getting accepted, while Harvard and Princeton restrictive early action don't seem to help compared to regular decision. We would hate to see the difference between a Duke acceptance and rejection come down to whether he did early decision or not, and we know regular decision at Duke is incredibly competitive.

Any thoughts/similar experiences would be much appreciated!

If your son likes Duke the most, tell him to ED there; he won't regret it. This is anecdotal but a friend of mine had an incredibly bright son from the DMV get into multiple ivy league schools, Duke, and MIT. He chose Duke and right out of college made more than his father (or I for that matter) have ever made in yearly compensation. He's doing really well for himself, and he always came back with fun stories during breaks. Your son seems very bright as well and I'm sure he can achieve whatever he wants out of Duke while not sacrificing on the fun.

I see what you are saying, I don't think Duke would hinder his success in any way. I suppose it is more of a late entry for us so it will take some adjustment.

I think you may be overestimating his odds of getting into any of these schools. Duke isn’t by any means a sure thing, and the others are virtually impossible. People do get lucky! But most don’t l.

Yes I did not mean to imply that DS is a shoe-in for Duke at all. I know it's one of the top handful of schools in the country so many qualified kids will be applying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: If not admitted early, to which other schools would your son apply ?

Decent boost for leadership as captain of an athletic team regardless of whether or not he continues playing that sport.

If your son has an above average chance for Harvard or Princeton and he likes each school, then go for it unless he loves Duke and just likes the other two.

I assure you that some recent Duke grads did not place well in the job market.

If not admitted early to Duke, he would apply to schools like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Dartmouth, University of Pennsylvania, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, UVA, University of Maryland, and some others. I believe Fordham gives scholarships for national merit scholars too.

I agree not everyone at top schools get the best placements, that's just bound to happen especially with the current economy. Even Harvard grads likely flounder every now and then, but it's good to hear that many people know Duke grads from the DMV who have gone on to do great things.

The gender gaps are larger than many (most?) of these at Yale and Brown. Something to consider as far as competitiveness. Though both are insanely high reaches for all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure if anyone else is making (or has already made) the same choice with their family with some combination of these schools. DS is the oldest and going to be the first one we send off to college, so it's our first crack at the egg. DS is a great kid and has become more than we could have hoped for, and his current plan is to study economics/public policy to go alongside something more quantitative (perhaps statistics). I know it's more than likely he'll change his mind at least once in college, as often happens, so we're focusing more on his general likes and dislikes. His guidance counselor says DS would have a chance (of course no guarantees) at any school: for context he has a 1580 on his SAT, currently on track to be salutatorian of his class, captain of a varsity sport and playing another, spends his time volunteering generously, is very active in clubs at school, and has multiple national level awards. We have run financial aid estimates at his top choice schools and we feel comfortable with the cost, and we expect he'll be working in some capacity at least during the summers.

He likes Duke for many reasons: great academics, great school spirit, and a competitive club sports culture. We made a last-minute visit with him last month and he was in love with the campus and enjoyed the students he talked with very much. It overall seems like "the best" fit for him, which is why he is considering early decision there. We'd be more than happy to send him there as well, the alumni network seems very strong.

On the other hand, Harvard and Princeton were his longtime dream schools, and although Duke has caught up for him it is still a "newer" school for us, as he has mentally been preparing to try for Harvard or Princeton for a few years now.

We're unsure if he should be limiting himself to just one choice by doing early decision, or if he should keep his options more open. Another big factor is from what we've read, Duke early decision seems to provide an advantage for getting accepted, while Harvard and Princeton restrictive early action don't seem to help compared to regular decision. We would hate to see the difference between a Duke acceptance and rejection come down to whether he did early decision or not, and we know regular decision at Duke is incredibly competitive.

Any thoughts/similar experiences would be much appreciated!

I think you are underestimating how difficult getting into Duke ED will be. You have to remember that out of all the ED schools, Duke is probably the biggest one for athletics. So out of their ~850 ED acceptances every year, generally at least 100 will be for recruited athletes. Then another 100 will be for legacies with strong ties to Duke. Then another 50 will be for super rich/influential people who want their children to have the Duke brand, who Duke will accept in exchange for the connections and future fundraising they will get from the parents. Then another 100 will be for North Carolina kids that Duke will need to accept because interestingly they have chosen to keep a certain percentage of each class as North Carolina natives (although these kids nowadays are probably extremely qualified as well). There will be another 50 spots going to genius kids who just happen to have Duke as their first choice who Duke cannot say no to. Yet another 50 spots will go to niche interests needed to fill in the school (such as instrument players where Duke has holes in their marching band, theater kids who will run school productions, kids who have done specific research that aligns with Duke, etc.). Then, you have another 100 spots going to URM/low income kids. So, that leaves ~300 spots for regular white/asian kids from good public and private schools battling it out for a spot at Duke. It's not going to be easy even with your son's 1580 and 4.0 GPA, but he definitely will have a good chance if they like his essays and recommendations.

This is an interesting way to break it down and it definitely puts some perspective into what it will take to get in even through ED. I don't even want to think about what Harvard REA looks like then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: If not admitted early, to which other schools would your son apply ?

Decent boost for leadership as captain of an athletic team regardless of whether or not he continues playing that sport.

If your son has an above average chance for Harvard or Princeton and he likes each school, then go for it unless he loves Duke and just likes the other two.

I assure you that some recent Duke grads did not place well in the job market.

If not admitted early to Duke, he would apply to schools like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Dartmouth, University of Pennsylvania, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, UVA, University of Maryland, and some others. I believe Fordham gives scholarships for national merit scholars too.

I agree not everyone at top schools get the best placements, that's just bound to happen especially with the current economy. Even Harvard grads likely flounder every now and then, but it's good to hear that many people know Duke grads from the DMV who have gone on to do great things.

The gender gaps are larger than many (most?) of these at Yale and Brown. Something to consider as far as competitiveness. Though both are insanely high reaches for all.

At Brown in particular they admit boys at much higher rate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does he have reasons to apply to any of these schools? Can he list the professors he’s excited about studying with? Has he read their papers and emailed their grad students? Are there particular programs that he is excited about contributing to?

He does not have specific professors in mind at any of the schools, but from what I can remember he likes a few specific things about Duke such as their Bass Connections Research programs with focuses on fact-checking and voting integrity, FOCUS clusters in mathematics, Data+ Summer Research opportunities, and their program in American Grand Strategy. I'm sure there's more that he's researched/heard about as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Duke. Better chance there with ED and he loves it. Not sure what his national awards are (could be game changer depending on what they are) but sports that aren’t at recruitment level won’t be that helpful in admissions process.

Some of his national awards are generic (like AP Scholar) but some are quite unique and competitive - his written award winning essays and entered national (maybe even international, not entirely sure) economics competitions and done well, among other things. He is not at the level of being recruited for sports, certainly not by Duke, but he still puts a lot of time into them.

I would say follow up on the Duke interest by talking to everyone possible, looking at faculty/dept info, and doing every online tour. You want to be sure if committing to ED. Duke ED is the far better bet, but others have said, nothing is great bet.

I would not count AP Scholar as a national award, and if one of those national awards is nmsf, I would really not count that strongly as carrying the punch of a truly national award. Did he win a national competition? Unique ECs? That will help, but it's still a long shot unless those are really noteworthy national awards. It's a wild and woolly admissions world out there. Good luck to him!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: If not admitted early, to which other schools would your son apply ?

Decent boost for leadership as captain of an athletic team regardless of whether or not he continues playing that sport.

If your son has an above average chance for Harvard or Princeton and he likes each school, then go for it unless he loves Duke and just likes the other two.

I assure you that some recent Duke grads did not place well in the job market.

If not admitted early to Duke, he would apply to schools like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Dartmouth, University of Pennsylvania, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, UVA, University of Maryland, and some others. I believe Fordham gives scholarships for national merit scholars too.

I agree not everyone at top schools get the best placements, that's just bound to happen especially with the current economy. Even Harvard grads likely flounder every now and then, but it's good to hear that many people know Duke grads from the DMV who have gone on to do great things.

The gender gaps are larger than many (most?) of these at Yale and Brown. Something to consider as far as competitiveness. Though both are insanely high reaches for all.

At Brown in particular they admit boys at much higher rate.

That's good to know. DS would much rather go to Duke though, so if he was to ED, he would do Duke although he also likes Brown in his own way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Duke. Better chance there with ED and he loves it. Not sure what his national awards are (could be game changer depending on what they are) but sports that aren’t at recruitment level won’t be that helpful in admissions process.

Some of his national awards are generic (like AP Scholar) but some are quite unique and competitive - his written award winning essays and entered national (maybe even international, not entirely sure) economics competitions and done well, among other things. He is not at the level of being recruited for sports, certainly not by Duke, but he still puts a lot of time into them.

I would say follow up on the Duke interest by talking to everyone possible, looking at faculty/dept info, and doing every online tour. You want to be sure if committing to ED. Duke ED is the far better bet, but others have said, nothing is great bet.

I would not count AP Scholar as a national award, and if one of those national awards is nmsf, I would really not count that strongly as carrying the punch of a truly national award. Did he win a national competition? Unique ECs? That will help, but it's still a long shot unless those are really noteworthy national awards. It's a wild and woolly admissions world out there. Good luck to him!

He does have some noteworthy national awards and is awaiting on some as well. I would not say his ECs are super unique though, but they should show his commitment and ability to excel in multiple different areas.

[Anonymous]

Harvard grad from above here.

To answer your questions, I think the reason people mostly don’t like Harvard is that they choose to attend not bc there is something they love about the school but bc they didn’t want to turn it down bc of the name. In part because of this, it doesn’t have a lot of school spirit.
Also there is for sure less of a focus on undergrads than even some of the other Ivies. (Don’t know re Duke).
I think they get away with a lot bc they are Harvard.
I didn’t like a lot of things about it and it definitely was the lowest point of my life with regard to my mental health
I was well rounded - athlete and captain and such - in high school like your son.
I think it is better for pointier students who have their one thing they are good at and they hang out w other students who do that thing.
My friends who played sports there really liked it for example bc they had a built in community.
That said, I do have a few lifelong friends from there who i love. Also I - like most Harvard grads - do like having a degree from there now that I don’t have to live there anymore and now that I am well past it and have gotten my confidence back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These are all lottery schools. Just let your kid decide which one he likes best.

This.

OP, you should be prepared that while things may work out, your kid may get rejected from all three of these schools. Be sure to have a lot of back up plans in place.

[Anonymous]

Two reasons for Duke ED:

The weather: spring has basically ceased to exist in the Northeast. Duke should give him four glorious springs.

The competition: no one holding out big hopes for H/P (or Stanford, other ivies) will apply binding ED to Duke. So that makes him a bigger fish in a smaller pond.

[Anonymous]

Since duke is his first choice, ED Duke.

[Anonymous]

Now people are getting a little too negative perhaps.
He has a really strong profile and will have a good shot at duke ED.
The other two are total lotteries.
(And your overall list looks good).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Now people are getting a little too negative perhaps.
He has a really strong profile and will have a good shot at duke ED.
The other two are total lotteries.
(And your overall list looks good).

My non scientific for my child with a similar profile trying for a slightly less competitive ED than duke is that they have about a 75% chance. They will probably get in and are certainly qualified! But for teenagers I think it’s important to help them understand that the 25% chance of not getting in is quite real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Now people are getting a little too negative perhaps.
He has a really strong profile and will have a good shot at duke ED.
The other two are total lotteries.
(And your overall list looks good).

I appreciate how well OP has taken the feedback. That’s rare on here. Wishing your family the best.