University System of Maryland moves toward removing SAT/ACT requirement

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

Maybe middle school.

They know what they need to see and have realized that kids who prep for a 4 hour test and do well are not the kids who do well over the course of 4 years. Add in a good essay and extra curriculars and suddenly the standardized tests don't mean much.

Look up information about Wake Forest and why they don't use it.

Please, they have known the whole time that SAT does not measure anything except how much families can pay for prep courses and therefore tuition. You all get that college admissions are actually not a meritocracy?

There is a ton research out there showing that SAT scores predict college success; most times better than HS grades. When the UC system looked into it they found that standardized tests were the single best predictor of college performance. When you add parental education as a variable, HHI becomes significantly less predictive of standardized test scores. In other words, HHI is an inexact proxy for parental education. Free high quality prep is easily available. Asians prep the most, but both Hispanics and AA prep more than whites do, and there are many studies that show that on average prepping only raises scores 30-60 points.

Bottom line, standardized tests work as intended; they act as a relatively unbiased tool to measure college readiness. They’re almost certainly the most objective measurement currently used for college admissions. Unfortunately, that does not allow colleges to balance the demographics of their classes as they wish, thus they’re being phased out.

Source? And please don't cite the college board or test prep organizations.

I found these:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2020/01/29/its-gpas-not-standardized-tests-that-predict-college-success/
"Grade point averages are a much better predictor of success at college than standardized tests, according to new research."

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success
"Students’ high-school grade point averages are five times stronger than their ACT scores at predicting college graduation, according to a new study from the University of Chicago Consortium on School Research."

Useless, outdated research. "They examined 55,084 students who graduated from Chicago Public Schools of varying academic profiles between 2006 and 2009, and who then immediately enrolled in a four-year college. At the time of the study, all Illinois students took the ACT in the spring of 11th grade."

That they were all in one school system add uniformity to the GPA stratification. However, given that a GPA means different things in different places, and in some public districts you can't tell the difference between a kid getting 89.5 and 100, and brilliant kids at schools that grade hard are getting B averages and going on to be suma at their colleges, while their previously straight A counterparts from other high schools are barely passing, it seems that GPA cannot be predictive because it isn't a uniform measurement.

I'd prefer a system that tests everyone on substance in the core areas as a universal entrance benchmark.

SAT hasn't changed much nor have students so believe this research is completely on point, but sorry if that bothers you.

[Anonymous]

Let us identify all metrics that 1 group of people does worse than the others and eliminate it.

SAT, ACT, GPAs, Magnet Programs, AP classes, Honors Classes, Essays that say that you are well traveled, Essays that are well written, what else?

Might as well use a random number generator at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let us identify all metrics that 1 group of people does worse than the others and eliminate it.

SAT, ACT, GPAs, Magnet Programs, AP classes, Honors Classes, Essays that say that you are well traveled, Essays that are well written, what else?

Might as well use a random number generator at this point.

This is what happens when you live in one of the most progressive state and county in US. Get used or vote accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Darryl Pines, the president of the University of Maryland at College Park, told the members that since adopting the test-optional model during the pandemic, the data on its impact is “cloudy,” but that, “We decided to communicate to our future students that we’re extending test optional (to) 2027, so that we can understand the data post-pandemic as to how well students are doing.”

Makes sense from UMD, they are waiting to see how students that entered during test-optional do in college.

In the past the SAT literally used to be a bunch of logic puzzles (for both reading and math) and it all depended on how well the student had prepped for those logic puzzles, since nothing learned in school was relevant.

The SAT has shifted away from that slightly but it still does not make sense why students aren't tested on the actual course work rather than a bunch of IQ-test adjacent puzzles. Doing the latter just empowers students that can afford expensive prep lessons over those students that are actually academically good students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Useless, outdated research. "They examined 55,084 students who graduated from Chicago Public Schools of varying academic profiles between 2006 and 2009, and who then immediately enrolled in a four-year college. At the time of the study, all Illinois students took the ACT in the spring of 11th grade."

That they were all in one school system add uniformity to the GPA stratification. However, given that a GPA means different things in different places, and in some public districts you can't tell the difference between a kid getting 89.5 and 100, and brilliant kids at schools that grade hard are getting B averages and going on to be suma at their colleges, while their previously straight A counterparts from other high schools are barely passing, it seems that GPA cannot be predictive because it isn't a uniform measurement.

I'd prefer a system that tests everyone on substance in the core areas as a universal entrance benchmark.

That's definitely not the SAT then, given that the SAT is a bunch of logical puzzles that is easily prep-able given you take SAT-specific prep classes.

AP and IB exams are a far more substantive judge of academic competencies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

How do you think so MCPS students get into UMD - inflated grading system. The SAT/ACT actually set apart the kids getting legit A's to the kid's working the system. It is so annoying

Doing well on AP and IB exams will continue to be important for MCPS applicants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My AP classes by far were my most interesting classes. Don’t force kids to take them if they don’t want to. But I will take AP Art History with me to the grave!

It’s also a way to earn college credit that saves $$$. I entered college as a sophomore thanks to AP and some community college courses I took in high school. It saved me $$$$ - I paid for my college myself.

That isn't happening anymore - at most colleges. More and more colleges are taking them away or only allowing 5's, sometimes 4's. And most have a certain amount you can use anyway. My last daughter who went to college could only use 3 max and after she took a test for her engineering school, was not deemed smart enough to pass their Calc 4 (even though she passed BC and got a 5 on the test.) And she struggled with that Calc course and beyond to Linear, DiffQ, etc... Her math was not up to snuff for this school. She retook their Chem class too even though she passed with a 4 and also struggled. Those high school classes are good to pass some courses, but for elite schools and hard majors, you can bank on them to get you through college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

How do you think so MCPS students get into UMD - inflated grading system. The SAT/ACT actually set apart the kids getting legit A's to the kid's working the system. It is so annoying

Doing well on AP and IB exams will continue to be important for MCPS applicants.

Do all high schools in the county offer the same AP and IB courses to all students equally?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is an honest question

How will UMD be able to tell apart a student who gets straight A's every quarter - 98 and then a 97.

vs

The students that struggle, but retake everything and hand in things late and get a 79.5 and an 89.5

Because on MCPS transcripts without SAT/ACT - these two students look identical.

No one has answered this question because they can't tell the difference. That is the whole point. Less standards to get into college, more will waste their money with it, and those that enter, spend money, and have loans will drop out. We already have 33% drop out rate in this country. I can't even imagine where it will go now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Darryl Pines, the president of the University of Maryland at College Park, told the members that since adopting the test-optional model during the pandemic, the data on its impact is “cloudy,” but that, “We decided to communicate to our future students that we’re extending test optional (to) 2027, so that we can understand the data post-pandemic as to how well students are doing.”

Makes sense from UMD, they are waiting to see how students that entered during test-optional do in college.

In the past the SAT literally used to be a bunch of logic puzzles (for both reading and math) and it all depended on how well the student had prepped for those logic puzzles, since nothing learned in school was relevant.

The SAT has shifted away from that slightly but it still does not make sense why students aren't tested on the actual course work rather than a bunch of IQ-test adjacent puzzles. Doing the latter just empowers students that can afford expensive prep lessons over those students that are actually academically good students.

Very true! UMD and most places because of the pandemic are starting to see that the info they get from the SAT isn't that helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an honest question

How will UMD be able to tell apart a student who gets straight A's every quarter - 98 and then a 97.

vs

The students that struggle, but retake everything and hand in things late and get a 79.5 and an 89.5

Because on MCPS transcripts without SAT/ACT - these two students look identical.

No one has answered this question because they can't tell the difference. That is the whole point. Less standards to get into college, more will waste their money with it, and those that enter, spend money, and have loans will drop out. We already have 33% drop out rate in this country. I can't even imagine where it will go now.

Agree that getting rid of meaningless tests and focusing on more meaningful metrics should decrease the dropout rate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

Maybe middle school.

They know what they need to see and have realized that kids who prep for a 4 hour test and do well are not the kids who do well over the course of 4 years. Add in a good essay and extra curriculars and suddenly the standardized tests don't mean much.

Look up information about Wake Forest and why they don't use it.

Yup, useless skill. No relevance to GMAT, LSAT, MCAT, bar exam, medical boards, CPA exams, etc.

Those will go away too. Maybe not a bar exam or other licensing tests but lsat, gmat etc are already not required at some schools.

As someone who is familiar with the process, I would be shocked if the MCAT went away. Too much $$$ lining pockets. If you want an example of gross money grubbing, read about med school admissions. Barf.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
We're careening towards the bottom at breakneck speed, because of morons who claim that all previously used indicators of academic worth and intellect are suddenly racist and classist and don't prove a thing.

Good Lord, what have we come to?

It's like the body positivity movement, where it's OK to criticize people for being skinny, but God forbid we say a word to people who are overweight, even if their quality of life and lifespan depend on it.

Guess what. Our country's standing in the world, ability to create jobs and conduct groundbreaking research, depends on smart people who take advanced classes and show they're ready for university rigor. Standardized tests are VITAL to this process.

Do you own stock in Kaplan or something? Why are you so in the tank for these stupid tests?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

Maybe middle school.

They know what they need to see and have realized that kids who prep for a 4 hour test and do well are not the kids who do well over the course of 4 years. Add in a good essay and extra curriculars and suddenly the standardized tests don't mean much.

Look up information about Wake Forest and why they don't use it.

Please, they have known the whole time that SAT does not measure anything except how much families can pay for prep courses and therefore tuition. You all get that college admissions are actually not a meritocracy?

There is a ton research out there showing that SAT scores predict college success; most times better than HS grades. When the UC system looked into it they found that standardized tests were the single best predictor of college performance. When you add parental education as a variable, HHI becomes significantly less predictive of standardized test scores. In other words, HHI is an inexact proxy for parental education. Free high quality prep is easily available. Asians prep the most, but both Hispanics and AA prep more than whites do, and there are many studies that show that on average prepping only raises scores 30-60 points.

Bottom line, standardized tests work as intended; they act as a relatively unbiased tool to measure college readiness. They’re almost certainly the most objective measurement currently used for college admissions. Unfortunately, that does not allow colleges to balance the demographics of their classes as they wish, thus they’re being phased out.

+1. This. Exactly

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

Maybe middle school.

They know what they need to see and have realized that kids who prep for a 4 hour test and do well are not the kids who do well over the course of 4 years. Add in a good essay and extra curriculars and suddenly the standardized tests don't mean much.

Look up information about Wake Forest and why they don't use it.

Uh no, if they really think tests don't mean much, they would go Test Blind, not Test Optional.

More serious schools like MIT went back to Test Required, and we can imagine why.