University System of Maryland moves toward removing SAT/ACT requirement

[Anonymous]

We're careening towards the bottom at breakneck speed, because of morons who claim that all previously used indicators of academic worth and intellect are suddenly racist and classist and don't prove a thing.

Good Lord, what have we come to?

It's like the body positivity movement, where it's OK to criticize people for being skinny, but God forbid we say a word to people who are overweight, even if their quality of life and lifespan depend on it.

Guess what. Our country's standing in the world, ability to create jobs and conduct groundbreaking research, depends on smart people who take advanced classes and show they're ready for university rigor. Standardized tests are VITAL to this process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

Maybe middle school.

They know what they need to see and have realized that kids who prep for a 4 hour test and do well are not the kids who do well over the course of 4 years. Add in a good essay and extra curriculars and suddenly the standardized tests don't mean much.

Look up information about Wake Forest and why they don't use it.

Please, they have known the whole time that SAT does not measure anything except how much families can pay for prep courses and therefore tuition. You all get that college admissions are actually not a meritocracy?

There is a ton research out there showing that SAT scores predict college success; most times better than HS grades. When the UC system looked into it they found that standardized tests were the single best predictor of college performance. When you add parental education as a variable, HHI becomes significantly less predictive of standardized test scores. In other words, HHI is an inexact proxy for parental education. Free high quality prep is easily available. Asians prep the most, but both Hispanics and AA prep more than whites do, and there are many studies that show that on average prepping only raises scores 30-60 points.

Bottom line, standardized tests work as intended; they act as a relatively unbiased tool to measure college readiness. They’re almost certainly the most objective measurement currently used for college admissions. Unfortunately, that does not allow colleges to balance the demographics of their classes as they wish, thus they’re being phased out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

How do you think so MCPS students get into UMD - inflated grading system. The SAT/ACT actually set apart the kids getting legit A's to the kid's working the system. It is so annoying

Hogwash

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we go back to removing most AP courses so kids can have less stressful high school years and take courses that interest them - instead of what looks good on a transcript.

And instead of getting rid of ACT and SAT scores - get rid of super scores and unlimited retakes that wealthy and upper middle class can afford to do.

Make Fall junior year the SAT test day and Spring Junior year the ACT test day Everyone gets one shot at both. Taken in your school on the same day. No retakes. You can submit either one to colleges.

or just dumb them down so that kids have an easy time and get an easy A oh wait other people complain about that I guess they can't please everyone

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
We're careening towards the bottom at breakneck speed, because of morons who claim that all previously used indicators of academic worth and intellect are suddenly racist and classist and don't prove a thing.

Good Lord, what have we come to?

It's like the body positivity movement, where it's OK to criticize people for being skinny, but God forbid we say a word to people who are overweight, even if their quality of life and lifespan depend on it.

Guess what. Our country's standing in the world, ability to create jobs and conduct groundbreaking research, depends on smart people who take advanced classes and show they're ready for university rigor. Standardized tests are VITAL to this process.

True except for the standardized test part which is just silly

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

Maybe middle school.

They know what they need to see and have realized that kids who prep for a 4 hour test and do well are not the kids who do well over the course of 4 years. Add in a good essay and extra curriculars and suddenly the standardized tests don't mean much.

Look up information about Wake Forest and why they don't use it.

Please, they have known the whole time that SAT does not measure anything except how much families can pay for prep courses and therefore tuition. You all get that college admissions are actually not a meritocracy?

There is a ton research out there showing that SAT scores predict college success; most times better than HS grades. When the UC system looked into it they found that standardized tests were the single best predictor of college performance. When you add parental education as a variable, HHI becomes significantly less predictive of standardized test scores. In other words, HHI is an inexact proxy for parental education. Free high quality prep is easily available. Asians prep the most, but both Hispanics and AA prep more than whites do, and there are many studies that show that on average prepping only raises scores 30-60 points.

Bottom line, standardized tests work as intended; they act as a relatively unbiased tool to measure college readiness. They’re almost certainly the most objective measurement currently used for college admissions. Unfortunately, that does not allow colleges to balance the demographics of their classes as they wish, thus they’re being phased out.

Source? And please don't cite the college board or test prep organizations.

I found these:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2020/01/29/its-gpas-not-standardized-tests-that-predict-college-success/
"Grade point averages are a much better predictor of success at college than standardized tests, according to new research."

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success
"Students’ high-school grade point averages are five times stronger than their ACT scores at predicting college graduation, according to a new study from the University of Chicago Consortium on School Research."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

Maybe middle school.

They know what they need to see and have realized that kids who prep for a 4 hour test and do well are not the kids who do well over the course of 4 years. Add in a good essay and extra curriculars and suddenly the standardized tests don't mean much.

Look up information about Wake Forest and why they don't use it.

Please, they have known the whole time that SAT does not measure anything except how much families can pay for prep courses and therefore tuition. You all get that college admissions are actually not a meritocracy?

There is a ton research out there showing that SAT scores predict college success; most times better than HS grades. When the UC system looked into it they found that standardized tests were the single best predictor of college performance. When you add parental education as a variable, HHI becomes significantly less predictive of standardized test scores. In other words, HHI is an inexact proxy for parental education. Free high quality prep is easily available. Asians prep the most, but both Hispanics and AA prep more than whites do, and there are many studies that show that on average prepping only raises scores 30-60 points.

Bottom line, standardized tests work as intended; they act as a relatively unbiased tool to measure college readiness. They’re almost certainly the most objective measurement currently used for college admissions. Unfortunately, that does not allow colleges to balance the demographics of their classes as they wish, thus they’re being phased out.

Source? And please don't cite the college board or test prep organizations.

I found these:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2020/01/29/its-gpas-not-standardized-tests-that-predict-college-success/
"Grade point averages are a much better predictor of success at college than standardized tests, according to new research."

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success
"Students’ high-school grade point averages are five times stronger than their ACT scores at predicting college graduation, according to a new study from the University of Chicago Consortium on School Research."

Feel free to read the UC report. This was a massive data set, covering all types of students/schools in the UC system.

https://senate.universityofcalifornia.edu/_files/underreview/sttf-report.pdf

Here's a study by University of Minnesota researchers (again, a huge data set, 150K students) showing that the SAT helped in predicting college success and wasn't substantially effected by SES

https://experts.umn.edu/en/publications/the-role-of-socioeconomic-status-in-sat-grade-relationships-and-i

Here's another from the same researchers showing that the vast majority of the relationship between college performance and test scores was unrelated to SES.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19210051/

Here's a study that shows that test prep by different groups/ses levels. One of the key findings:
"Black non-Hispanic students are more likely to participate in test prep, and there are also significant interaction effects of race and grade level on prep, with black 11th graders having the highest predicted probability of prep."

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1573-7861.2012.01326.x


Grades are important obviously, but the data is clear that SAT/ACT scores are also important in determining who succeeds in college. MIT recently added test requirements back in because they were unable to select a class that would do as well at MIT without them.

[Anonymous]

This is an honest question

How will UMD be able to tell apart a student who gets straight A's every quarter - 98 and then a 97.

vs

The students that struggle, but retake everything and hand in things late and get a 79.5 and an 89.5

Because on MCPS transcripts without SAT/ACT - these two students look identical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My AP classes by far were my most interesting classes. Don’t force kids to take them if they don’t want to. But I will take AP Art History with me to the grave!

It’s also a way to earn college credit that saves $$$. I entered college as a sophomore thanks to AP and some community college courses I took in high school. It saved me $$$$ - I paid for my college myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
We're careening towards the bottom at breakneck speed, because of morons who claim that all previously used indicators of academic worth and intellect are suddenly racist and classist and don't prove a thing.

Exactly. I don't understand this at all. Are grades not classist as well? What about resources for visiting and applying to college? Where does it end?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we go back to removing most AP courses so kids can have less stressful high school years and take courses that interest them - instead of what looks good on a transcript.

And instead of getting rid of ACT and SAT scores - get rid of super scores and unlimited retakes that wealthy and upper middle class can afford to do.

Make Fall junior year the SAT test day and Spring Junior year the ACT test day Everyone gets one shot at both. Taken in your school on the same day. No retakes. You can submit either one to colleges.

Even if the course isn't called AP, every course your kid chooses will still be on the transcripts, which will still be evaluated by a college to determine whether the courses your kid took prepared them for college. So, you can change the name, but game is the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is an honest question

How will UMD be able to tell apart a student who gets straight A's every quarter - 98 and then a 97.

vs

The students that struggle, but retake everything and hand in things late and get a 79.5 and an 89.5

Because on MCPS transcripts without SAT/ACT - these two students look identical.

As stated above, UMD looks at other factors as well:

Important:
Class rank
Application essay
Recommendation(s0
Talent/ability
First generation
State residency

Considered:
Extracurricular activities
Character/personal qualities
Alumni/ae relation
Geographical residence
Racial/ethnic status
Volunteer work
Work experience

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an honest question

How will UMD be able to tell apart a student who gets straight A's every quarter - 98 and then a 97.

vs

The students that struggle, but retake everything and hand in things late and get a 79.5 and an 89.5

Because on MCPS transcripts without SAT/ACT - these two students look identical.

As stated above, UMD looks at other factors as well:

Important:
Class rank
Application essay
Recommendation(s0
Talent/ability
First generation
State residency

Considered:
Extracurricular activities
Character/personal qualities
Alumni/ae relation
Geographical residence
Racial/ethnic status
Volunteer work
Work experience

Talent/Ability is literally unmeasurable without standardized test scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, when applying to UMD a candidate can send the SAT score (if that's good enough) or not. The acceptance criteria don't take into consideration that score at all, right? If that's the case, how do they decide who's academically fit? High School grades?

Maybe middle school.

They know what they need to see and have realized that kids who prep for a 4 hour test and do well are not the kids who do well over the course of 4 years. Add in a good essay and extra curriculars and suddenly the standardized tests don't mean much.

Look up information about Wake Forest and why they don't use it.

Please, they have known the whole time that SAT does not measure anything except how much families can pay for prep courses and therefore tuition. You all get that college admissions are actually not a meritocracy?

There is a ton research out there showing that SAT scores predict college success; most times better than HS grades. When the UC system looked into it they found that standardized tests were the single best predictor of college performance. When you add parental education as a variable, HHI becomes significantly less predictive of standardized test scores. In other words, HHI is an inexact proxy for parental education. Free high quality prep is easily available. Asians prep the most, but both Hispanics and AA prep more than whites do, and there are many studies that show that on average prepping only raises scores 30-60 points.

Bottom line, standardized tests work as intended; they act as a relatively unbiased tool to measure college readiness. They’re almost certainly the most objective measurement currently used for college admissions. Unfortunately, that does not allow colleges to balance the demographics of their classes as they wish, thus they’re being phased out.

Source? And please don't cite the college board or test prep organizations.

I found these:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2020/01/29/its-gpas-not-standardized-tests-that-predict-college-success/
"Grade point averages are a much better predictor of success at college than standardized tests, according to new research."

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success
"Students’ high-school grade point averages are five times stronger than their ACT scores at predicting college graduation, according to a new study from the University of Chicago Consortium on School Research."

Useless, outdated research. "They examined 55,084 students who graduated from Chicago Public Schools of varying academic profiles between 2006 and 2009, and who then immediately enrolled in a four-year college. At the time of the study, all Illinois students took the ACT in the spring of 11th grade."

That they were all in one school system add uniformity to the GPA stratification. However, given that a GPA means different things in different places, and in some public districts you can't tell the difference between a kid getting 89.5 and 100, and brilliant kids at schools that grade hard are getting B averages and going on to be suma at their colleges, while their previously straight A counterparts from other high schools are barely passing, it seems that GPA cannot be predictive because it isn't a uniform measurement.

I'd prefer a system that tests everyone on substance in the core areas as a universal entrance benchmark.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an honest question

How will UMD be able to tell apart a student who gets straight A's every quarter - 98 and then a 97.

vs

The students that struggle, but retake everything and hand in things late and get a 79.5 and an 89.5

Because on MCPS transcripts without SAT/ACT - these two students look identical.

As stated above, UMD looks at other factors as well:

Important:
Class rank
Application essay
Recommendation(s0
Talent/ability
First generation
State residency

Considered:
Extracurricular activities
Character/personal qualities
Alumni/ae relation
Geographical residence
Racial/ethnic status
Volunteer work
Work experience

Talent/Ability is literally unmeasurable without standardized test scores

Sure it is