Some college degrees in Virginia never pay off. Others provide an immediate return.

[Anonymous]

What a load of bullshit.

"Cool story, however the reality is that student debt is becoming a national crisis and these people are demanding debt cancellation and forgive at the expense of tax payers.
I bet all these people were thinking like you in the beginning."

My kid was admitted to VCU Arts. It would cost less than half of what we saved in their 529 account. They're going to a SLAC instead where they major in philosophy and pursue their art interest on the side. They'll still have money left over in the 529 when they finish that degree thanks to merit awards. I have zero concern that they'll figure out how to make a comfortable living doing something they enjoy. Pushing your kid to do something that pays $X upon graduation is for small minded people. As someone else said, why limit them if you can afford to let them expand their world?

I attended a HSYP and a T14 law school. Tons of my classmates majored in art, philosophy, Afro-American Studies, Latino Studies, and so on. We're all doing just fine financially. But more importantly, we do work that makes us happy to wake up in the morning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://richmond.com/news/local/education/some-college-degrees-in-virginia-never-pay-off-others-provide-an-immediate-return/article_2c73cc6f-c508-51c0-8fb4-7960bd1402dc.htm

Not a news, but specifically for VA schools.

Of course CS is King.
Good luck to humanties folks such as philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc.

Hasn't this always been the case? I mean, CS would have been Engineering in general, say 20 years ago.. I can't recall a time when "philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc." were considered hot..

English & Psychology are the back up degrees for kids that couldn't hack more demanding programs. The kids that fall back on those programs are generally lower performers and lower curve for those degrees.

Not really. They are degrees people get if they are not focused on STEM (which many are not). However, I always think someone with a non-stem degree should take some stem courses/get a "stemy" minor as that is what will likely help a psychology major get a job. They may end up in a training position or sales job for a company that is IT/Healthsciences/Tech focused at some point. So the psych degree or philosophy or English degree is what they are interested in, they learn and develop critical thinking skills at the college level and then must use those skills to get a job. If one has some tech skills/knowledge to go along with the liberal arts degree, it often times makes them much more desireable/marketable in the business world. An English major can work at a tech company writing training programs/mauals/etc or actually be a trainer---there are many options, but the new college grad has to work to market themselves and find the right position. But the process will be easier for them if they had some math/basic CS course/etc. Or an English/psych/history major that has a business minor will have an easier time determining what to do for a career and locating that first job.

I know plenty of really smart people with non-stem and non-business majors who have gone far with careers at tech based companies. It just takes a bit more creativity to determine your path. Not as many jobs that say "English major required/preferred" as say CS or Engineering or business degree needed

I wasn't clear enough, I'm talking about the people that didn't intend to be psychology or english majors. It became their backup when they flunked out of finance or another more strenuous major. English & Psy major classes are more stand alone, not mastering the prereq material freshman/sophomore year doesn't have as much affect on major classes taken junior/senior .

My rising college sophomore entered college intending to be a computer science major. He took the two required intro programming courses (one in the fall, one in spring) and the required class in discrete structures. Earned an A or A- in all three. But he really didn't enjoy them and no longer wants to major in CS. He's now considering philosophy or psychology instead.

+1, the new CS sequence was unpalatable to my kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone wants the steady (boring) life that comes with being basic economic security. As the child of immigrants, I understand the desire my parents have for me to be be a little higher up the ladder from them. But they just didn't know enough about American society or culture to know what to encourage beside doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist. They knew to want me to go to an elite college, but they had no idea what doors that opened.

I want my DC to pursue a life and career with meaning and purpose. Every field -- including art history and English -- has people who earn more than a comfortable living and enjoy things that most techies couldn't imagine. Telling my child they have to pick a major with a high average starting salary is the same as telling them I want them to have an average life. I want them to have an extraordinary life and to choose a field where they will commit and perform at extraordinary levels. No one is great at something they don't really care about. That's the difference between mediocrity and excellence!

I do remember having the thought that the dirty little secret we don’t tell our kids is that at the end of the day they are all very likely to end up spending most of their day farting around with Excel or entering data or making PowerPoints or answering emails or something else equally as mind numbingly boring. And I say this as someone who was a diplomat. I wrote a lot of emails, wrote some speeches and made PowerPoints. Most peoples lives aren’t all that extraordinary. Sometimes it’s hard to pretend all that stuff about passion and creativity for your young adults.

Well, hopefully someone read your cables.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What a load of bullshit.

"Cool story, however the reality is that student debt is becoming a national crisis and these people are demanding debt cancellation and forgive at the expense of tax payers.
I bet all these people were thinking like you in the beginning."

My kid was admitted to VCU Arts. It would cost less than half of what we saved in their 529 account. They're going to a SLAC instead where they major in philosophy and pursue their art interest on the side. They'll still have money left over in the 529 when they finish that degree thanks to merit awards. I have zero concern that they'll figure out how to make a comfortable living doing something they enjoy. Pushing your kid to do something that pays $X upon graduation is for small minded people. As someone else said, why limit them if you can afford to let them expand their world?

I attended a HSYP and a T14 law school. Tons of my classmates majored in art, philosophy, Afro-American Studies, Latino Studies, and so on. We're all doing just fine financially. But more importantly, we do work that makes us happy to wake up in the morning.

Very few T14 lawyers like their work. Very few

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone wants the steady (boring) life that comes with being basic economic security. As the child of immigrants, I understand the desire my parents have for me to be be a little higher up the ladder from them. But they just didn't know enough about American society or culture to know what to encourage beside doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist. They knew to want me to go to an elite college, but they had no idea what doors that opened.

I want my DC to pursue a life and career with meaning and purpose. Every field -- including art history and English -- has people who earn more than a comfortable living and enjoy things that most techies couldn't imagine. Telling my child they have to pick a major with a high average starting salary is the same as telling them I want them to have an average life. I want them to have an extraordinary life and to choose a field where they will commit and perform at extraordinary levels. No one is great at something they don't really care about. That's the difference between mediocrity and excellence!

No one is telling kids or anyone to pick something they are not passionate about. I don't direct my kids to pick something because of a higher salary. However, there is a reality in how society values and pays various positions and a teenager should be aware of that before picking a path in life. If Art History is your passion, then go ahead and major in that. But think early on about how to parlay this into a career/employment. And also think about what your starting pay might been those jobs. Then pick what your college accordingly. Don't take $100K in student/parent loans that the student will be expected to pay back if your staring salary is only $40K. Instead pick a school you can afford.

My kids are free to pick whatever major they want. I can afford to pay for their college, so they can major in Philosophy at Harvard if they get in and so choose. I can and would pay the $80K expenses yearly so they don't have any debt.
However, if they needed to take loans I would encourage them to not take loans worth more their starting salary with desired degree. So if you make $40K, then you shouldn't take more than 40K total in loans. Find a university that allows you to not overtake loans. Ideally find a university where you can have even less in loans.
Simply put, pick what you want to do with your life, explore enjoy life, pick a path that interests you, but look realistically at what that means for finances and plan accordingly.

When I went to college, I spent an extra year and did 2 full degrees. Why? Because I knew it wasn't not the best idea to just get a music performance degree when I loved STEM as well. While I Loved music, I knew that it was hard to land jobs. 500 People audition for 1 position in an orchestra--and 300 of those will be highly qualified for the position, yet only 1 is going to walk away with the job. I was torn which to get and growing up poor, I also really didn't want to end up poor. Doing well academically was my way to at least middle class, but hopefully upper middle class lifestyle. So I got both an engineering and a Music degree. That way I had choices and if I didn't make it in music initially, I could get an engineering job while I kept up my music. I had no desire to work random temp jobs or waiter while piecing together various music jobs to make ends met. Ultimately I did the engineering and did music on the side for years, and ultimately taught music for 10 years. Best of both worlds for em.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://richmond.com/news/local/education/some-college-degrees-in-virginia-never-pay-off-others-provide-an-immediate-return/article_2c73cc6f-c508-51c0-8fb4-7960bd1402dc.htm

Not a news, but specifically for VA schools.

Of course CS is King.
Good luck to humanties folks such as philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc.

Hasn't this always been the case? I mean, CS would have been Engineering in general, say 20 years ago.. I can't recall a time when "philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc." were considered hot..

English & Psychology are the back up degrees for kids that couldn't hack more demanding programs. The kids that fall back on those programs are generally lower performers and lower curve for those degrees.

Not really. They are degrees people get if they are not focused on STEM (which many are not). However, I always think someone with a non-stem degree should take some stem courses/get a "stemy" minor as that is what will likely help a psychology major get a job. They may end up in a training position or sales job for a company that is IT/Healthsciences/Tech focused at some point. So the psych degree or philosophy or English degree is what they are interested in, they learn and develop critical thinking skills at the college level and then must use those skills to get a job. If one has some tech skills/knowledge to go along with the liberal arts degree, it often times makes them much more desireable/marketable in the business world. An English major can work at a tech company writing training programs/mauals/etc or actually be a trainer---there are many options, but the new college grad has to work to market themselves and find the right position. But the process will be easier for them if they had some math/basic CS course/etc. Or an English/psych/history major that has a business minor will have an easier time determining what to do for a career and locating that first job.

I know plenty of really smart people with non-stem and non-business majors who have gone far with careers at tech based companies. It just takes a bit more creativity to determine your path. Not as many jobs that say "English major required/preferred" as say CS or Engineering or business degree needed

I wasn't clear enough, I'm talking about the people that didn't intend to be psychology or english majors. It became their backup when they flunked out of finance or another more strenuous major. English & Psy major classes are more stand alone, not mastering the prereq material freshman/sophomore year doesn't have as much affect on major classes taken junior/senior .

My rising college sophomore entered college intending to be a computer science major. He took the two required intro programming courses (one in the fall, one in spring) and the required class in discrete structures. Earned an A or A- in all three. But he really didn't enjoy them and no longer wants to major in CS. He's now considering philosophy or psychology instead.

Sorry, at least minor in CS.

I agree. Switch majors, but he is obviously capable of "doing CS" so take the remaining 3-4 courses and get the minor. He might appreciate that when job searching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What a load of bullshit.

"Cool story, however the reality is that student debt is becoming a national crisis and these people are demanding debt cancellation and forgive at the expense of tax payers.
I bet all these people were thinking like you in the beginning."

My kid was admitted to VCU Arts. It would cost less than half of what we saved in their 529 account. They're going to a SLAC instead where they major in philosophy and pursue their art interest on the side. They'll still have money left over in the 529 when they finish that degree thanks to merit awards. I have zero concern that they'll figure out how to make a comfortable living doing something they enjoy. Pushing your kid to do something that pays $X upon graduation is for small minded people. As someone else said, why limit them if you can afford to let them expand their world?

I attended a HSYP and a T14 law school. Tons of my classmates majored in art, philosophy, Afro-American Studies, Latino Studies, and so on. We're all doing just fine financially. But more importantly, we do work that makes us happy to wake up in the morning.

What your son is doing is just fine. He won't have student loans when he gets out, so he went to an "affordable to him" school. But his life could be very different if he had to figure out how to pay $900/month in student loans for 10 years. Really hard to get on your feet if that is what you set yourself up for.

[Anonymous]

All the none-boring, innovative, exciting, revolutionary futuristic interesting stuff are coming out of Tech. 
Most of these risk taking passionate self-made billionaires are from tech - Bill Gates, Jurkeberg, Jeff Bazos, Elon Musk, etc. etc.
Compare it to history english philosophy psychology LOL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All the none-boring, innovative, exciting, revolutionary futuristic interesting stuff are coming out of Tech. 
Most of these risk taking passionate self-made billionaires are from tech - Bill Gates, Jurkeberg, Jeff Bazos, Elon Musk, etc. etc.
Compare it to history english philosophy psychology LOL

Guaranteed Bill Gates employs English majors too. People on this board seem to think that all there is to these businesses is techies. Why are we ignoring the people that RUN THE BUSINESS? There needs to be English majors to write marketing communications, employee communications, executive speeches. There could be philosophy majors on sales, HR, marketing, leadership, reseller management/partnerships. Frankly those people are needed to balance out all the technical people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a load of bullshit.

"Cool story, however the reality is that student debt is becoming a national crisis and these people are demanding debt cancellation and forgive at the expense of tax payers.
I bet all these people were thinking like you in the beginning."

My kid was admitted to VCU Arts. It would cost less than half of what we saved in their 529 account. They're going to a SLAC instead where they major in philosophy and pursue their art interest on the side. They'll still have money left over in the 529 when they finish that degree thanks to merit awards. I have zero concern that they'll figure out how to make a comfortable living doing something they enjoy. Pushing your kid to do something that pays $X upon graduation is for small minded people. As someone else said, why limit them if you can afford to let them expand their world?

I attended a HSYP and a T14 law school. Tons of my classmates majored in art, philosophy, Afro-American Studies, Latino Studies, and so on. We're all doing just fine financially. But more importantly, we do work that makes us happy to wake up in the morning.

Very few T14 lawyers like their work. Very few

+1 I was gonna say...obviously there are some more interesting paths in the legal field but the typical big law path that so many take? Ugh, absolutely soul crushing...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All the none-boring, innovative, exciting, revolutionary futuristic interesting stuff are coming out of Tech. 
Most of these risk taking passionate self-made billionaires are from tech - Bill Gates, Jurkeberg, Jeff Bazos, Elon Musk, etc. etc.
Compare it to history english philosophy psychology LOL

Some people think they are ruining the world because their passion is amassing money and power (or trolling in Musk's case).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://richmond.com/news/local/education/some-college-degrees-in-virginia-never-pay-off-others-provide-an-immediate-return/article_2c73cc6f-c508-51c0-8fb4-7960bd1402dc.htm

Not a news, but specifically for VA schools.

Of course CS is King.
Good luck to humanties folks such as philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc.

Hasn't this always been the case? I mean, CS would have been Engineering in general, say 20 years ago.. I can't recall a time when "philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc." were considered hot..

English & Psychology are the back up degrees for kids that couldn't hack more demanding programs. The kids that fall back on those programs are generally lower performers and lower curve for those degrees.

Not really. They are degrees people get if they are not focused on STEM (which many are not). However, I always think someone with a non-stem degree should take some stem courses/get a "stemy" minor as that is what will likely help a psychology major get a job. They may end up in a training position or sales job for a company that is IT/Healthsciences/Tech focused at some point. So the psych degree or philosophy or English degree is what they are interested in, they learn and develop critical thinking skills at the college level and then must use those skills to get a job. If one has some tech skills/knowledge to go along with the liberal arts degree, it often times makes them much more desireable/marketable in the business world. An English major can work at a tech company writing training programs/mauals/etc or actually be a trainer---there are many options, but the new college grad has to work to market themselves and find the right position. But the process will be easier for them if they had some math/basic CS course/etc. Or an English/psych/history major that has a business minor will have an easier time determining what to do for a career and locating that first job.

I know plenty of really smart people with non-stem and non-business majors who have gone far with careers at tech based companies. It just takes a bit more creativity to determine your path. Not as many jobs that say "English major required/preferred" as say CS or Engineering or business degree needed

I wasn't clear enough, I'm talking about the people that didn't intend to be psychology or english majors. It became their backup when they flunked out of finance or another more strenuous major. English & Psy major classes are more stand alone, not mastering the prereq material freshman/sophomore year doesn't have as much affect on major classes taken junior/senior .

My rising college sophomore entered college intending to be a computer science major. He took the two required intro programming courses (one in the fall, one in spring) and the required class in discrete structures. Earned an A or A- in all three. But he really didn't enjoy them and no longer wants to major in CS. He's now considering philosophy or psychology instead.

Sorry, at least minor in CS.

I agree. Switch majors, but he is obviously capable of "doing CS" so take the remaining 3-4 courses and get the minor. He might appreciate that when job searching.

Everyone capable of coding should know how to code a little, and should also know a little bit about computer science, which is not really the same thing as coding, because coding and CS are now part of a broad liberal arts education. They’re part of what people need to know to survive.

And people who love coding or CS should certainly aim to go into those fields, because their passion will serve them well.

But the idea that all kids should major in CS, whether they have a real aptitude for that or not, means that coding is in a bubble, and that the kids aiming for a coding career are mostly doomed.

If most of the kids going into coding are disengaged serfs who learn exactly what will be on the test and no more, that means that, at best, they’ll make good money for a few years after they leave college and then will become angry, obsolete relics. At worst, they may be replaced by AI systems and more enthusiastic coders in other countries before they graduate.

Maybe they can move into management, but, if they can’t write and can’t think in a creative way, they may be weak managers.

[Anonymous]

Seems weird to look at age 26-28, the prime age for going to grad school for many people who didn't do their undergrad in a highly pre-professional field. It's common to graduate, work for a few years to figure out how you want to specialize and then go to grad school. The more comprehensive studies show that if you look at lifetime earnings, a lot of the humanities/social sciences have a return on investment close or equal to STEM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://richmond.com/news/local/education/some-college-degrees-in-virginia-never-pay-off-others-provide-an-immediate-return/article_2c73cc6f-c508-51c0-8fb4-7960bd1402dc.htm

Not a news, but specifically for VA schools.

Of course CS is King.
Good luck to humanties folks such as philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc.

Hasn't this always been the case? I mean, CS would have been Engineering in general, say 20 years ago.. I can't recall a time when "philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc." were considered hot..

English & Psychology are the back up degrees for kids that couldn't hack more demanding programs. The kids that fall back on those programs are generally lower performers and lower curve for those degrees.

Not really. They are degrees people get if they are not focused on STEM (which many are not). However, I always think someone with a non-stem degree should take some stem courses/get a "stemy" minor as that is what will likely help a psychology major get a job. They may end up in a training position or sales job for a company that is IT/Healthsciences/Tech focused at some point. So the psych degree or philosophy or English degree is what they are interested in, they learn and develop critical thinking skills at the college level and then must use those skills to get a job. If one has some tech skills/knowledge to go along with the liberal arts degree, it often times makes them much more desireable/marketable in the business world. An English major can work at a tech company writing training programs/mauals/etc or actually be a trainer---there are many options, but the new college grad has to work to market themselves and find the right position. But the process will be easier for them if they had some math/basic CS course/etc. Or an English/psych/history major that has a business minor will have an easier time determining what to do for a career and locating that first job.

I know plenty of really smart people with non-stem and non-business majors who have gone far with careers at tech based companies. It just takes a bit more creativity to determine your path. Not as many jobs that say "English major required/preferred" as say CS or Engineering or business degree needed

I wasn't clear enough, I'm talking about the people that didn't intend to be psychology or english majors. It became their backup when they flunked out of finance or another more strenuous major. English & Psy major classes are more stand alone, not mastering the prereq material freshman/sophomore year doesn't have as much affect on major classes taken junior/senior .

My rising college sophomore entered college intending to be a computer science major. He took the two required intro programming courses (one in the fall, one in spring) and the required class in discrete structures. Earned an A or A- in all three. But he really didn't enjoy them and no longer wants to major in CS. He's now considering philosophy or psychology instead.

Sorry, at least minor in CS.

I agree. Switch majors, but he is obviously capable of "doing CS" so take the remaining 3-4 courses and get the minor. He might appreciate that when job searching.

Everyone capable of coding should know how to code a little, and should also know a little bit about computer science, which is not really the same thing as coding, because coding and CS are now part of a broad liberal arts education. They’re part of what people need to know to survive.

And people who love coding or CS should certainly aim to go into those fields, because their passion will serve them well.

But the idea that all kids should major in CS, whether they have a real aptitude for that or not, means that coding is in a bubble, and that the kids aiming for a coding career are mostly doomed.

If most of the kids going into coding are disengaged serfs who learn exactly what will be on the test and no more, that means that, at best, they’ll make good money for a few years after they leave college and then will become angry, obsolete relics. At worst, they may be replaced by AI systems and more enthusiastic coders in other countries before they graduate.

Maybe they can move into management, but, if they can’t write and can’t think in a creative way, they may be weak managers.

Did not say he should "Major in CS". Just stated that since he's completed half of the CS minor (for most universities its about 6 courses) and did quite well, it would be beneficial to just complete the minor along with finding a major he is passionate about. Who knows, he might find the remaining CS courses more interesting. The CS minor with a philosophy/psychology minor could go a long way to helping him get a job, and the job doesn't have to be coding, it might just be in a technology field and his "tech knowledge" might make him the most attractive candidate for a training position or writing for a tech company or in HR for a tech company.

Obviously, nobody should go into coding or get a STEM degree just because it's easier to find a job. But the fact is we live in a technology based world, so having a few tech or business courses (or a minor) can go a long way towards helping a LA major find a path to a career. Like English, awesome major in that, but couple it with a marketing minor or general business minor for a bit more practical side (or anything else that interests you). Because yes, businesses need critical thinkers and excellent writers, and English/philosophy/psychology majors are perfect for that so why not take a few practical courses along with it like marketing/business/etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a load of bullshit.

"Cool story, however the reality is that student debt is becoming a national crisis and these people are demanding debt cancellation and forgive at the expense of tax payers.
I bet all these people were thinking like you in the beginning."

My kid was admitted to VCU Arts. It would cost less than half of what we saved in their 529 account. They're going to a SLAC instead where they major in philosophy and pursue their art interest on the side. They'll still have money left over in the 529 when they finish that degree thanks to merit awards. I have zero concern that they'll figure out how to make a comfortable living doing something they enjoy. Pushing your kid to do something that pays $X upon graduation is for small minded people. As someone else said, why limit them if you can afford to let them expand their world?

I attended a HSYP and a T14 law school. Tons of my classmates majored in art, philosophy, Afro-American Studies, Latino Studies, and so on. We're all doing just fine financially. But more importantly, we do work that makes us happy to wake up in the morning.

Very few T14 lawyers like their work. Very few

+1 I was gonna say...obviously there are some more interesting paths in the legal field but the typical big law path that so many take? Ugh, absolutely soul crushing...

+1