Some college degrees in Virginia never pay off. Others provide an immediate return.

[Anonymous]

Not everyone wants the steady (boring) life that comes with being basic economic security. As the child of immigrants, I understand the desire my parents have for me to be be a little higher up the ladder from them. But they just didn't know enough about American society or culture to know what to encourage beside doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist. They knew to want me to go to an elite college, but they had no idea what doors that opened.

I want my DC to pursue a life and career with meaning and purpose. Every field -- including art history and English -- has people who earn more than a comfortable living and enjoy things that most techies couldn't imagine. Telling my child they have to pick a major with a high average starting salary is the same as telling them I want them to have an average life. I want them to have an extraordinary life and to choose a field where they will commit and perform at extraordinary levels. No one is great at something they don't really care about. That's the difference between mediocrity and excellence!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone wants the steady (boring) life that comes with being basic economic security. As the child of immigrants, I understand the desire my parents have for me to be be a little higher up the ladder from them. But they just didn't know enough about American society or culture to know what to encourage beside doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist. They knew to want me to go to an elite college, but they had no idea what doors that opened.

I want my DC to pursue a life and career with meaning and purpose. Every field -- including art history and English -- has people who earn more than a comfortable living and enjoy things that most techies couldn't imagine. Telling my child they have to pick a major with a high average starting salary is the same as telling them I want them to have an average life. I want them to have an extraordinary life and to choose a field where they will commit and perform at extraordinary levels. No one is great at something they don't really care about. That's the difference between mediocrity and excellence!

Cool story, however the reality is that student debt is becoming a national crisis and these people are demanding debt cancellation and forgive at the expense of tax payers.
I bet all these people were thinking like you in the beginning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a mistake to think of education as training school. Limited thinking brings limited results.

Nobody's making that mistake.
It just that the employers/industries/society that actually pay their $$$ think that the STEM or Business majors has good thinking skills as well as specialized skills.
Market is smarter than what you think

So good thinking skills vs good thinking sills + specialized skills.
Who would you pick?

This is why liberal arts majors (non-stem based) can really help themselves by having a minor in something like CS/Business/finance/econ/data analytics/etc. Get that art history degree because that is what you are passionate about. I'm all for that---we need people in all aspects of life---life would be boring if everyone were a stem major. But also get a marketing minor or Econ minor---pick something that will make you more marketable and help you stand out from other non-stem LA majors. Because the fact is you do have to market yourself differently with a LA degree versus a stem/business degree. Then you have the Critical thinking skills and a bit of specialized skills.
The fact is even with an English degree, there is a good chance you may someday work as a writer for a company and there's a good chance that company has some type of tech focus. So having taken some CS course or business courses will help you.
And if you end up working at an art museum (I'm assuming that's the "dream job" for someone with a BA in Art history), you will still have the business/econ/marketing/cs skills and they will serve you well.

In the same realm, I strongly encourage STEM/business majors to explore LA courses and maybe minor in something with a different slant that gives them more critical thinking skills---that is why Psychology is an extremely popular minor at most schools.

There are plenty of companies that hire "anyone with a BS/BA degree"--they want critical thinkers and know they can train any smart, critical thinker. I can think of one specific in Healthcare/Technology that does just that. The hiring process is rigorous. They hire "trainers" and "Quality managers". Those trainers are training users on software/technology and QMs are essentially end user testing software. More than 50% of those positions are filled with general LA degrees, and many business majors. The company can easily train anyone who is smart, critical thinker, for these positions. College is about learning and growing. But come graduation you have to put those skills to use.

I think one issue is that there's a huge difference between a passionate, high-stats student who has a burning desire to read great books, and becomes an English major, and a disengaged, low-stats student who ends up majoring in philosophy as a default, simply because most of the philosophy professors are kind enough to use a C- as the failing grade for students who tried.

The passionate English major might end up earning $30,000, but having a great time, as an administrator at a nonprofit group, or a private school teacher. That recent grad might show up as a failure on the outcomes list but actually be a success.

The disengaged philosophy major might end up earning $30,000 as a barista. And, the truth is: For a passionate person, maybe the barista job could actually lead to all sorts of great opportunities. But the disengaged philosophy major may not have the level of energy and focus needed to make opportunities happen.

That isn't really the result of any big problem with majoring in philosoph; that's the result of the fact that humanities programs and social sciences programs at non-selective schools tend to serve as rescue programs for disengaged students with weak math skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone wants the steady (boring) life that comes with being basic economic security. As the child of immigrants, I understand the desire my parents have for me to be be a little higher up the ladder from them. But they just didn't know enough about American society or culture to know what to encourage beside doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist. They knew to want me to go to an elite college, but they had no idea what doors that opened.

I want my DC to pursue a life and career with meaning and purpose. Every field -- including art history and English -- has people who earn more than a comfortable living and enjoy things that most techies couldn't imagine. Telling my child they have to pick a major with a high average starting salary is the same as telling them I want them to have an average life. I want them to have an extraordinary life and to choose a field where they will commit and perform at extraordinary levels. No one is great at something they don't really care about. That's the difference between mediocrity and excellence!

Great plan!

However, should your DC come out only making $35K/year, don't expect me to help pay off their $100K in loans.

Choose a school so they can afford their loans. And great if they make more than that. Life isn't all about what you make, but if your kid has a variety of interests, there is nothing wrong with making them aware of the different paths in life. If my kids likes math and science and art history, then I will encourage them to double major and then pick a path they so desire. If they really only want to major in art history, awesome. But I would be doing them a disservice to not make them aware of the types of jobs art history majors typically get and the salary range that is current for that. If I need them to take loans, I'd make them aware of what the monthly payments would be for various amounts so they can decide if its worth it or not. But in reality, most 18yo do not understand what it means to pay $1500/month to student loans (ie more than their apartment will be typically ) and to need to do that for 10+ years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a mistake to think of education as training school. Limited thinking brings limited results.

Nobody's making that mistake.
It just that the employers/industries/society that actually pay their $$$ think that the STEM or Business majors has good thinking skills as well as specialized skills.
Market is smarter than what you think

So good thinking skills vs good thinking sills + specialized skills.
Who would you pick?

This is why liberal arts majors (non-stem based) can really help themselves by having a minor in something like CS/Business/finance/econ/data analytics/etc. Get that art history degree because that is what you are passionate about. I'm all for that---we need people in all aspects of life---life would be boring if everyone were a stem major. But also get a marketing minor or Econ minor---pick something that will make you more marketable and help you stand out from other non-stem LA majors. Because the fact is you do have to market yourself differently with a LA degree versus a stem/business degree. Then you have the Critical thinking skills and a bit of specialized skills.
The fact is even with an English degree, there is a good chance you may someday work as a writer for a company and there's a good chance that company has some type of tech focus. So having taken some CS course or business courses will help you.
And if you end up working at an art museum (I'm assuming that's the "dream job" for someone with a BA in Art history), you will still have the business/econ/marketing/cs skills and they will serve you well.

In the same realm, I strongly encourage STEM/business majors to explore LA courses and maybe minor in something with a different slant that gives them more critical thinking skills---that is why Psychology is an extremely popular minor at most schools.

There are plenty of companies that hire "anyone with a BS/BA degree"--they want critical thinkers and know they can train any smart, critical thinker. I can think of one specific in Healthcare/Technology that does just that. The hiring process is rigorous. They hire "trainers" and "Quality managers". Those trainers are training users on software/technology and QMs are essentially end user testing software. More than 50% of those positions are filled with general LA degrees, and many business majors. The company can easily train anyone who is smart, critical thinker, for these positions. College is about learning and growing. But come graduation you have to put those skills to use.

I think one issue is that there's a huge difference between a passionate, high-stats student who has a burning desire to read great books, and becomes an English major, and a disengaged, low-stats student who ends up majoring in philosophy as a default, simply because most of the philosophy professors are kind enough to use a C- as the failing grade for students who tried.

The passionate English major might end up earning $30,000, but having a great time, as an administrator at a nonprofit group, or a private school teacher. That recent grad might show up as a failure on the outcomes list but actually be a success.

The disengaged philosophy major might end up earning $30,000 as a barista. And, the truth is: For a passionate person, maybe the barista job could actually lead to all sorts of great opportunities. But the disengaged philosophy major may not have the level of energy and focus needed to make opportunities happen.

That isn't really the result of any big problem with majoring in philosoph; that's the result of the fact that humanities programs and social sciences programs at non-selective schools tend to serve as rescue programs for disengaged students with weak math skills.

I agree.

I'd even go so far as to say, the disengaged "philosophy" major who ends up there because its the "easiest" degree to get likely should not be at college. DOesn't sound like they are engaged with learning at all. Those are kids who should be at CC (where it's more affordable to try things out and find a path) or investigating trade school or what path they want in life. Don't just go to college unless you are engaged and putting forth the effort. Otherwise you might just drop out before finishing or finish with a degree that is meaningless since you are not engaged and still have tons of student loans to pay off, but end up working a job that doesn't require a college degree.

And yes, the engaged LA major will go far in life. Everyone should do what they love. But life will be much easier if they don't weigh themselves down with student loans they cannot easily afford (making $30K/year simply doesn't allow much in the way of student loan repayment, unless you are still living at home with your parents). And they are not a "failure" for not making 80K+. We need people like this! And yes, they should be paid more, but that's not likely to happen anytime soon, so until then plan accordingly so they can be fully functioning adults (ie living independently without roommates and paying all their own bills)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone wants the steady (boring) life that comes with being basic economic security. As the child of immigrants, I understand the desire my parents have for me to be be a little higher up the ladder from them. But they just didn't know enough about American society or culture to know what to encourage beside doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist. They knew to want me to go to an elite college, but they had no idea what doors that opened.

I want my DC to pursue a life and career with meaning and purpose. Every field -- including art history and English -- has people who earn more than a comfortable living and enjoy things that most techies couldn't imagine. Telling my child they have to pick a major with a high average starting salary is the same as telling them I want them to have an average life. I want them to have an extraordinary life and to choose a field where they will commit and perform at extraordinary levels. No one is great at something they don't really care about. That's the difference between mediocrity and excellence!

Great plan!

However, should your DC come out only making $35K/year, don't expect me to help pay off their $100K in loans.

Choose a school so they can afford their loans. And great if they make more than that. Life isn't all about what you make, but if your kid has a variety of interests, there is nothing wrong with making them aware of the different paths in life. If my kids likes math and science and art history, then I will encourage them to double major and then pick a path they so desire. If they really only want to major in art history, awesome. But I would be doing them a disservice to not make them aware of the types of jobs art history majors typically get and the salary range that is current for that. If I need them to take loans, I'd make them aware of what the monthly payments would be for various amounts so they can decide if its worth it or not. But in reality, most 18yo do not understand what it means to pay $1500/month to student loans (ie more than their apartment will be typically ) and to need to do that for 10+ years.

FWIW, a lot of people on this board do not worry about student loans because we don't need them. And I have no problem with my DC earning far less than what I'll pay in annual college tuition when she starts out. The whole point of being young is to explore and take risks and see if you can rise above the ordinary. It would be great if she has to share a fifth floor walk-up in a neighborhood I wouldn't choose. My guess it that it'll make her more frugal and less materialistic and maybe even more motivated to succeed on her own terms. Or to be an elitist about it, do what you need to do to set your kid up to be at the bottom of the UMC. I'll encourage whatever she wants to do to reach the very top of her chosen path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://richmond.com/news/local/education/some-college-degrees-in-virginia-never-pay-off-others-provide-an-immediate-return/article_2c73cc6f-c508-51c0-8fb4-7960bd1402dc.htm

Not a news, but specifically for VA schools.

Of course CS is King.
Good luck to humanties folks such as philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc.

Hasn't this always been the case? I mean, CS would have been Engineering in general, say 20 years ago.. I can't recall a time when "philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc." were considered hot..

English & Psychology are the back up degrees for kids that couldn't hack more demanding programs. The kids that fall back on those programs are generally lower performers and lower curve for those degrees.

Not really. They are degrees people get if they are not focused on STEM (which many are not). However, I always think someone with a non-stem degree should take some stem courses/get a "stemy" minor as that is what will likely help a psychology major get a job. They may end up in a training position or sales job for a company that is IT/Healthsciences/Tech focused at some point. So the psych degree or philosophy or English degree is what they are interested in, they learn and develop critical thinking skills at the college level and then must use those skills to get a job. If one has some tech skills/knowledge to go along with the liberal arts degree, it often times makes them much more desireable/marketable in the business world. An English major can work at a tech company writing training programs/mauals/etc or actually be a trainer---there are many options, but the new college grad has to work to market themselves and find the right position. But the process will be easier for them if they had some math/basic CS course/etc. Or an English/psych/history major that has a business minor will have an easier time determining what to do for a career and locating that first job.

I know plenty of really smart people with non-stem and non-business majors who have gone far with careers at tech based companies. It just takes a bit more creativity to determine your path. Not as many jobs that say "English major required/preferred" as say CS or Engineering or business degree needed

I wasn't clear enough, I'm talking about the people that didn't intend to be psychology or english majors. It became their backup when they flunked out of finance or another more strenuous major. English & Psy major classes are more stand alone, not mastering the prereq material freshman/sophomore year doesn't have as much affect on major classes taken junior/senior .

My rising college sophomore entered college intending to be a computer science major. He took the two required intro programming courses (one in the fall, one in spring) and the required class in discrete structures. Earned an A or A- in all three. But he really didn't enjoy them and no longer wants to major in CS. He's now considering philosophy or psychology instead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a mistake to think of education as training school. Limited thinking brings limited results.

Nobody's making that mistake.
It just that the employers/industries/society that actually pay their $$$ think that the STEM or Business majors has good thinking skills as well as specialized skills.
Market is smarter than what you think

So good thinking skills vs good thinking sills + specialized skills.
Who would you pick?

This is why liberal arts majors (non-stem based) can really help themselves by having a minor in something like CS/Business/finance/econ/data analytics/etc. Get that art history degree because that is what you are passionate about. I'm all for that---we need people in all aspects of life---life would be boring if everyone were a stem major. But also get a marketing minor or Econ minor---pick something that will make you more marketable and help you stand out from other non-stem LA majors. Because the fact is you do have to market yourself differently with a LA degree versus a stem/business degree. Then you have the Critical thinking skills and a bit of specialized skills.
The fact is even with an English degree, there is a good chance you may someday work as a writer for a company and there's a good chance that company has some type of tech focus. So having taken some CS course or business courses will help you.
And if you end up working at an art museum (I'm assuming that's the "dream job" for someone with a BA in Art history), you will still have the business/econ/marketing/cs skills and they will serve you well.

In the same realm, I strongly encourage STEM/business majors to explore LA courses and maybe minor in something with a different slant that gives them more critical thinking skills---that is why Psychology is an extremely popular minor at most schools.

There are plenty of companies that hire "anyone with a BS/BA degree"--they want critical thinkers and know they can train any smart, critical thinker. I can think of one specific in Healthcare/Technology that does just that. The hiring process is rigorous. They hire "trainers" and "Quality managers". Those trainers are training users on software/technology and QMs are essentially end user testing software. More than 50% of those positions are filled with general LA degrees, and many business majors. The company can easily train anyone who is smart, critical thinker, for these positions. College is about learning and growing. But come graduation you have to put those skills to use.

I think one issue is that there's a huge difference between a passionate, high-stats student who has a burning desire to read great books, and becomes an English major, and a disengaged, low-stats student who ends up majoring in philosophy as a default, simply because most of the philosophy professors are kind enough to use a C- as the failing grade for students who tried.

The passionate English major might end up earning $30,000, but having a great time, as an administrator at a nonprofit group, or a private school teacher. That recent grad might show up as a failure on the outcomes list but actually be a success.

The disengaged philosophy major might end up earning $30,000 as a barista. And, the truth is: For a passionate person, maybe the barista job could actually lead to all sorts of great opportunities. But the disengaged philosophy major may not have the level of energy and focus needed to make opportunities happen.

That isn't really the result of any big problem with majoring in philosoph; that's the result of the fact that humanities programs and social sciences programs at non-selective schools tend to serve as rescue programs for disengaged students with weak math skills.

I agree.

I'd even go so far as to say, the disengaged "philosophy" major who ends up there because its the "easiest" degree to get likely should not be at college. DOesn't sound like they are engaged with learning at all. Those are kids who should be at CC (where it's more affordable to try things out and find a path) or investigating trade school or what path they want in life. Don't just go to college unless you are engaged and putting forth the effort. Otherwise you might just drop out before finishing or finish with a degree that is meaningless since you are not engaged and still have tons of student loans to pay off, but end up working a job that doesn't require a college degree.

And yes, the engaged LA major will go far in life. Everyone should do what they love. But life will be much easier if they don't weigh themselves down with student loans they cannot easily afford (making $30K/year simply doesn't allow much in the way of student loan repayment, unless you are still living at home with your parents). And they are not a "failure" for not making 80K+. We need people like this! And yes, they should be paid more, but that's not likely to happen anytime soon, so until then plan accordingly so they can be fully functioning adults (ie living independently without roommates and paying all their own bills)

I don't think there are many "disengaged" philosophy majors. It is definitely not the "easiest" degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://richmond.com/news/local/education/some-college-degrees-in-virginia-never-pay-off-others-provide-an-immediate-return/article_2c73cc6f-c508-51c0-8fb4-7960bd1402dc.htm

Not a news, but specifically for VA schools.

Of course CS is King.
Good luck to humanties folks such as philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc.

Hasn't this always been the case? I mean, CS would have been Engineering in general, say 20 years ago.. I can't recall a time when "philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc." were considered hot..

English & Psychology are the back up degrees for kids that couldn't hack more demanding programs. The kids that fall back on those programs are generally lower performers and lower curve for those degrees.

Not really. They are degrees people get if they are not focused on STEM (which many are not). However, I always think someone with a non-stem degree should take some stem courses/get a "stemy" minor as that is what will likely help a psychology major get a job. They may end up in a training position or sales job for a company that is IT/Healthsciences/Tech focused at some point. So the psych degree or philosophy or English degree is what they are interested in, they learn and develop critical thinking skills at the college level and then must use those skills to get a job. If one has some tech skills/knowledge to go along with the liberal arts degree, it often times makes them much more desireable/marketable in the business world. An English major can work at a tech company writing training programs/mauals/etc or actually be a trainer---there are many options, but the new college grad has to work to market themselves and find the right position. But the process will be easier for them if they had some math/basic CS course/etc. Or an English/psych/history major that has a business minor will have an easier time determining what to do for a career and locating that first job.

I know plenty of really smart people with non-stem and non-business majors who have gone far with careers at tech based companies. It just takes a bit more creativity to determine your path. Not as many jobs that say "English major required/preferred" as say CS or Engineering or business degree needed

I wasn't clear enough, I'm talking about the people that didn't intend to be psychology or english majors. It became their backup when they flunked out of finance or another more strenuous major. English & Psy major classes are more stand alone, not mastering the prereq material freshman/sophomore year doesn't have as much affect on major classes taken junior/senior .

My rising college sophomore entered college intending to be a computer science major. He took the two required intro programming courses (one in the fall, one in spring) and the required class in discrete structures. Earned an A or A- in all three. But he really didn't enjoy them and no longer wants to major in CS. He's now considering philosophy or psychology instead.

Sorry, at least minor in CS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone wants the steady (boring) life that comes with being basic economic security. As the child of immigrants, I understand the desire my parents have for me to be be a little higher up the ladder from them. But they just didn't know enough about American society or culture to know what to encourage beside doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist. They knew to want me to go to an elite college, but they had no idea what doors that opened.

I want my DC to pursue a life and career with meaning and purpose. Every field -- including art history and English -- has people who earn more than a comfortable living and enjoy things that most techies couldn't imagine. Telling my child they have to pick a major with a high average starting salary is the same as telling them I want them to have an average life. I want them to have an extraordinary life and to choose a field where they will commit and perform at extraordinary levels. No one is great at something they don't really care about. That's the difference between mediocrity and excellence!

Great plan!

However, should your DC come out only making $35K/year, don't expect me to help pay off their $100K in loans.

Choose a school so they can afford their loans. And great if they make more than that. Life isn't all about what you make, but if your kid has a variety of interests, there is nothing wrong with making them aware of the different paths in life. If my kids likes math and science and art history, then I will encourage them to double major and then pick a path they so desire. If they really only want to major in art history, awesome. But I would be doing them a disservice to not make them aware of the types of jobs art history majors typically get and the salary range that is current for that. If I need them to take loans, I'd make them aware of what the monthly payments would be for various amounts so they can decide if its worth it or not. But in reality, most 18yo do not understand what it means to pay $1500/month to student loans (ie more than their apartment will be typically ) and to need to do that for 10+ years.

FWIW, a lot of people on this board do not worry about student loans because we don't need them. And I have no problem with my DC earning far less than what I'll pay in annual college tuition when she starts out. The whole point of being young is to explore and take risks and see if you can rise above the ordinary. It would be great if she has to share a fifth floor walk-up in a neighborhood I wouldn't choose. My guess it that it'll make her more frugal and less materialistic and maybe even more motivated to succeed on her own terms. Or to be an elitist about it, do what you need to do to set your kid up to be at the bottom of the UMC. I'll encourage whatever she wants to do to reach the very top of her chosen path.

Yes everyone had that kind of dreams which is a good thing.
However backup plans are also important in life.

You have back up plans for choosing a college(rich target safety) and many other things, but not on your one and only life?
Exploring and taking risk is good, but it better not be recklessness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://richmond.com/news/local/education/some-college-degrees-in-virginia-never-pay-off-others-provide-an-immediate-return/article_2c73cc6f-c508-51c0-8fb4-7960bd1402dc.htm

Not a news, but specifically for VA schools.

Of course CS is King.
Good luck to humanties folks such as philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc.

Hasn't this always been the case? I mean, CS would have been Engineering in general, say 20 years ago.. I can't recall a time when "philosophy, English, Psychology, etc. as well as dance, fine art, drama, etc." were considered hot..

English & Psychology are the back up degrees for kids that couldn't hack more demanding programs. The kids that fall back on those programs are generally lower performers and lower curve for those degrees.

Not really. They are degrees people get if they are not focused on STEM (which many are not). However, I always think someone with a non-stem degree should take some stem courses/get a "stemy" minor as that is what will likely help a psychology major get a job. They may end up in a training position or sales job for a company that is IT/Healthsciences/Tech focused at some point. So the psych degree or philosophy or English degree is what they are interested in, they learn and develop critical thinking skills at the college level and then must use those skills to get a job. If one has some tech skills/knowledge to go along with the liberal arts degree, it often times makes them much more desireable/marketable in the business world. An English major can work at a tech company writing training programs/mauals/etc or actually be a trainer---there are many options, but the new college grad has to work to market themselves and find the right position. But the process will be easier for them if they had some math/basic CS course/etc. Or an English/psych/history major that has a business minor will have an easier time determining what to do for a career and locating that first job.

I know plenty of really smart people with non-stem and non-business majors who have gone far with careers at tech based companies. It just takes a bit more creativity to determine your path. Not as many jobs that say "English major required/preferred" as say CS or Engineering or business degree needed

I wasn't clear enough, I'm talking about the people that didn't intend to be psychology or english majors. It became their backup when they flunked out of finance or another more strenuous major. English & Psy major classes are more stand alone, not mastering the prereq material freshman/sophomore year doesn't have as much affect on major classes taken junior/senior .

My rising college sophomore entered college intending to be a computer science major. He took the two required intro programming courses (one in the fall, one in spring) and the required class in discrete structures. Earned an A or A- in all three. But he really didn't enjoy them and no longer wants to major in CS. He's now considering philosophy or psychology instead.

Sorry, at least minor in CS.

PP. Meh. He can major/minor in whatever he wants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone wants the steady (boring) life that comes with being basic economic security. As the child of immigrants, I understand the desire my parents have for me to be be a little higher up the ladder from them. But they just didn't know enough about American society or culture to know what to encourage beside doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist. They knew to want me to go to an elite college, but they had no idea what doors that opened.

I want my DC to pursue a life and career with meaning and purpose. Every field -- including art history and English -- has people who earn more than a comfortable living and enjoy things that most techies couldn't imagine. Telling my child they have to pick a major with a high average starting salary is the same as telling them I want them to have an average life. I want them to have an extraordinary life and to choose a field where they will commit and perform at extraordinary levels. No one is great at something they don't really care about. That's the difference between mediocrity and excellence!

I do remember having the thought that the dirty little secret we don’t tell our kids is that at the end of the day they are all very likely to end up spending most of their day farting around with Excel or entering data or making PowerPoints or answering emails or something else equally as mind numbingly boring. And I say this as someone who was a diplomat. I wrote a lot of emails, wrote some speeches and made PowerPoints. Most peoples lives aren’t all that extraordinary. Sometimes it’s hard to pretend all that stuff about passion and creativity for your young adults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone wants the steady (boring) life that comes with being basic economic security. As the child of immigrants, I understand the desire my parents have for me to be be a little higher up the ladder from them. But they just didn't know enough about American society or culture to know what to encourage beside doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist. They knew to want me to go to an elite college, but they had no idea what doors that opened.

I want my DC to pursue a life and career with meaning and purpose. Every field -- including art history and English -- has people who earn more than a comfortable living and enjoy things that most techies couldn't imagine. Telling my child they have to pick a major with a high average starting salary is the same as telling them I want them to have an average life. I want them to have an extraordinary life and to choose a field where they will commit and perform at extraordinary levels. No one is great at something they don't really care about. That's the difference between mediocrity and excellence!

I do remember having the thought that the dirty little secret we don’t tell our kids is that at the end of the day they are all very likely to end up spending most of their day farting around with Excel or entering data or making PowerPoints or answering emails or something else equally as mind numbingly boring. And I say this as someone who was a diplomat. I wrote a lot of emails, wrote some speeches and made PowerPoints. Most peoples lives aren’t all that extraordinary. Sometimes it’s hard to pretend all that stuff about passion and creativity for your young adults.

Not the PP to whom you're responding, but...how sad. You say you were a diplomat, past tense. I genuinely hope you're now doing something more engaging with your time, whatever you're doing.

I get why you posted what you did, but I also think it's sad to think of "passion and creativity" with such cynicism. Not all professional paths end up in a sea of emails and PowerPoints.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a mistake to think of education as training school. Limited thinking brings limited results.

Nobody's making that mistake.
It just that the employers/industries/society that actually pay their $$$ think that the STEM or Business majors has good thinking skills as well as specialized skills.
Market is smarter than what you think

So good thinking skills vs good thinking sills + specialized skills.
Who would you pick?

This is why liberal arts majors (non-stem based) can really help themselves by having a minor in something like CS/Business/finance/econ/data analytics/etc. Get that art history degree because that is what you are passionate about. I'm all for that---we need people in all aspects of life---life would be boring if everyone were a stem major. But also get a marketing minor or Econ minor---pick something that will make you more marketable and help you stand out from other non-stem LA majors. Because the fact is you do have to market yourself differently with a LA degree versus a stem/business degree. Then you have the Critical thinking skills and a bit of specialized skills.
The fact is even with an English degree, there is a good chance you may someday work as a writer for a company and there's a good chance that company has some type of tech focus. So having taken some CS course or business courses will help you.
And if you end up working at an art museum (I'm assuming that's the "dream job" for someone with a BA in Art history), you will still have the business/econ/marketing/cs skills and they will serve you well.

In the same realm, I strongly encourage STEM/business majors to explore LA courses and maybe minor in something with a different slant that gives them more critical thinking skills---that is why Psychology is an extremely popular minor at most schools.

There are plenty of companies that hire "anyone with a BS/BA degree"--they want critical thinkers and know they can train any smart, critical thinker. I can think of one specific in Healthcare/Technology that does just that. The hiring process is rigorous. They hire "trainers" and "Quality managers". Those trainers are training users on software/technology and QMs are essentially end user testing software. More than 50% of those positions are filled with general LA degrees, and many business majors. The company can easily train anyone who is smart, critical thinker, for these positions. College is about learning and growing. But come graduation you have to put those skills to use.

I think one issue is that there's a huge difference between a passionate, high-stats student who has a burning desire to read great books, and becomes an English major, and a disengaged, low-stats student who ends up majoring in philosophy as a default, simply because most of the philosophy professors are kind enough to use a C- as the failing grade for students who tried.

The passionate English major might end up earning $30,000, but having a great time, as an administrator at a nonprofit group, or a private school teacher. That recent grad might show up as a failure on the outcomes list but actually be a success.

The disengaged philosophy major might end up earning $30,000 as a barista. And, the truth is: For a passionate person, maybe the barista job could actually lead to all sorts of great opportunities. But the disengaged philosophy major may not have the level of energy and focus needed to make opportunities happen.

That isn't really the result of any big problem with majoring in philosoph; that's the result of the fact that humanities programs and social sciences programs at non-selective schools tend to serve as rescue programs for disengaged students with weak math skills.

I agree.

I'd even go so far as to say, the disengaged "philosophy" major who ends up there because its the "easiest" degree to get likely should not be at college. DOesn't sound like they are engaged with learning at all. Those are kids who should be at CC (where it's more affordable to try things out and find a path) or investigating trade school or what path they want in life. Don't just go to college unless you are engaged and putting forth the effort. Otherwise you might just drop out before finishing or finish with a degree that is meaningless since you are not engaged and still have tons of student loans to pay off, but end up working a job that doesn't require a college degree.

And yes, the engaged LA major will go far in life. Everyone should do what they love. But life will be much easier if they don't weigh themselves down with student loans they cannot easily afford (making $30K/year simply doesn't allow much in the way of student loan repayment, unless you are still living at home with your parents). And they are not a "failure" for not making 80K+. We need people like this! And yes, they should be paid more, but that's not likely to happen anytime soon, so until then plan accordingly so they can be fully functioning adults (ie living independently without roommates and paying all their own bills)

I don't think there are many "disengaged" philosophy majors. It is definitely not the "easiest" degree.

My impression is that at reasonably selective schools, it’s a very difficult major, but that, especially at weaker schools, maybe it’s a major where C minus is the true minimum grade for students who turned everything in on time and learned at least a little.

The odds of getting A’s or AB’s in classes like that might not be all that better than in physics classes, but the odds of passing might be higher.

At least, that’s what I’m picturing when I see VCU philosophy majors at the bottom of the outcomes list in that article. I have a hard time believing that majoring in philosophy itself is that big of a career obstacle. I would think the challenge is that VCU might not have a famous philosophy program, and that students who end up majoring in philosophy there might tend not to be great strategists.

If anyone here is involved with the VCU philosophy program and knows that it’s wonderful, and that the problem is prejudice against philosophy majors: sorry. But that’s the picture I came away with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a mistake to think of education as training school. Limited thinking brings limited results.

Nobody's making that mistake.
It just that the employers/industries/society that actually pay their $$$ think that the STEM or Business majors has good thinking skills as well as specialized skills.
Market is smarter than what you think

So good thinking skills vs good thinking sills + specialized skills.
Who would you pick?

This is why liberal arts majors (non-stem based) can really help themselves by having a minor in something like CS/Business/finance/econ/data analytics/etc. Get that art history degree because that is what you are passionate about. I'm all for that---we need people in all aspects of life---life would be boring if everyone were a stem major. But also get a marketing minor or Econ minor---pick something that will make you more marketable and help you stand out from other non-stem LA majors. Because the fact is you do have to market yourself differently with a LA degree versus a stem/business degree. Then you have the Critical thinking skills and a bit of specialized skills.
The fact is even with an English degree, there is a good chance you may someday work as a writer for a company and there's a good chance that company has some type of tech focus. So having taken some CS course or business courses will help you.
And if you end up working at an art museum (I'm assuming that's the "dream job" for someone with a BA in Art history), you will still have the business/econ/marketing/cs skills and they will serve you well.

In the same realm, I strongly encourage STEM/business majors to explore LA courses and maybe minor in something with a different slant that gives them more critical thinking skills---that is why Psychology is an extremely popular minor at most schools.

There are plenty of companies that hire "anyone with a BS/BA degree"--they want critical thinkers and know they can train any smart, critical thinker. I can think of one specific in Healthcare/Technology that does just that. The hiring process is rigorous. They hire "trainers" and "Quality managers". Those trainers are training users on software/technology and QMs are essentially end user testing software. More than 50% of those positions are filled with general LA degrees, and many business majors. The company can easily train anyone who is smart, critical thinker, for these positions. College is about learning and growing. But come graduation you have to put those skills to use.

I think one issue is that there's a huge difference between a passionate, high-stats student who has a burning desire to read great books, and becomes an English major, and a disengaged, low-stats student who ends up majoring in philosophy as a default, simply because most of the philosophy professors are kind enough to use a C- as the failing grade for students who tried.

The passionate English major might end up earning $30,000, but having a great time, as an administrator at a nonprofit group, or a private school teacher. That recent grad might show up as a failure on the outcomes list but actually be a success.

The disengaged philosophy major might end up earning $30,000 as a barista. And, the truth is: For a passionate person, maybe the barista job could actually lead to all sorts of great opportunities. But the disengaged philosophy major may not have the level of energy and focus needed to make opportunities happen.

That isn't really the result of any big problem with majoring in philosoph; that's the result of the fact that humanities programs and social sciences programs at non-selective schools tend to serve as rescue programs for disengaged students with weak math skills.

I agree.

I'd even go so far as to say, the disengaged "philosophy" major who ends up there because its the "easiest" degree to get likely should not be at college. DOesn't sound like they are engaged with learning at all. Those are kids who should be at CC (where it's more affordable to try things out and find a path) or investigating trade school or what path they want in life. Don't just go to college unless you are engaged and putting forth the effort. Otherwise you might just drop out before finishing or finish with a degree that is meaningless since you are not engaged and still have tons of student loans to pay off, but end up working a job that doesn't require a college degree.

And yes, the engaged LA major will go far in life. Everyone should do what they love. But life will be much easier if they don't weigh themselves down with student loans they cannot easily afford (making $30K/year simply doesn't allow much in the way of student loan repayment, unless you are still living at home with your parents). And they are not a "failure" for not making 80K+. We need people like this! And yes, they should be paid more, but that's not likely to happen anytime soon, so until then plan accordingly so they can be fully functioning adults (ie living independently without roommates and paying all their own bills)

I don't think there are many "disengaged" philosophy majors. It is definitely not the "easiest" degree.

Agreed, I minored in philosophy at a not-particularly-selective university and everyone I knew who was a major was very smart. Maybe not all the type of people that would thrive in a corporate/conventional setting, but still smart. Communication seemed to be the go-to major for the disengaged "just get a degree" people. Political science, psychology, sociology, and business also a large contingent of those folks.