What does the future hold for kids applying in the next 5 years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read who gets in and why too, and while very insightful, I’m not sure it gives a magic formula.

What I took away from WGIAW it was:

Be very smart and get an A and 5 on BC Calc junior year (especially if female as this illustrates high quant IQ.)
Take the other hardest courses at your school and get As
Apply ED and EA
Be full pay
Be recruited for a sport
Most importantly, admission officers are human and make many seemingly random decisions

Anyway, this “recipe” is not possible for most kids. For my kids, we are going to do a lot of rolling and EA schools and be happy with those schools. We are not getting attached to any one perfect school. I am encouraging my kid to apply to schools they fit their areas of interest but have admission rates above 50%. Maybe they will try for one harder to get into school for ED but that will be balanced with others that are more likely.

PP. I don’t think the book gives a formula. I kind of gleaned one from the book and from anecdotes of friends and neighbors. It worked for us. Not saying it would work for others. But maybe it’s helpful for some who like to think in a “what helps” way. Lots of things don’t help. Some things do. Play those cards right and you improve your odds. That’s all I meant.

PP Can you tell us what you gleaned from it? What matters and what does not?

PP here. Yes! It’s grades, rigor, SAT/ACT, ECs, and applications. I also want to make clear that it isn’t at all about getting into a Top 20 college. It’s about aiming for what you think is best for your DC. You get the formula, maximize the variables in it, and that improves your odds for colleges that you’re targeting. It’s so simple people will think it’s stupid. But we just took each variable in turn during junior year and used our limited time and money on what mattered most, each of those variables. Like we said, we can’t control everything, but for the next 2 montres, we’re focusing on maximizing SAT score. Check. Next.

What I got out of the book was partly how many totally qualified students they see, and how they have to prune hard to get to a reasonably sized class. It helped me see that my kid's experience of being put on many waitlists was actually a sign of being qualified but just not having some (likely unchangeable) attributes desired by the school for that particular class.

Also how important it is to tell a coherent story about the student. Want to major in subject X but have showed no interest in it before (through classes, extracurriculars, etc.)? Not a great look. Say you couldn't do extracurriculars because of family obligations but then don't give enough detail about the time commitment? You haven't proven your case and it's hard to tell if you're an involved older sibling or just a slacker.

PP. totally agree. Waitlist? You’re close and just not lucky enough. Those are things you can’t change. Coherent story? Right! That’s the application variable. That’s something you can change, a variable.

What’s so amazing to watch is people throw up their hands and say it’s all random. It’s more accurate to say that it’s partially random and partially in your control. The reason I think the book is so good is that it highlighted some things that we could work on. So we made a list and focused on those items. It was much better than just anxiety over things we can’t control or know. Even if DC’s results hadn’t been great, we still would have felt like we did our best. Win-win.

[Anonymous]

1. Let your kid be themselves— but the best version of themselves. If you have an all arounder who can get 4s and 5s across all 5 cores in AP— great. But that’s not the only path. If your kid is pointy, use it to set them apart.

My kid got into a Tier 1 VA school this year with 2 AP foreign languages, a foreign language summer intensive in a third language and all of the English, History, Social Science APs offered except psych. 11 APs. But — 3 years of honors science, no senior science, no science APs. And standard math starting in A2, standard Calc, not AP. She loved her classes and had great grades. And was applying for a humanities major. She also did some unusual ECs in her major, and applied to continue with one EC . And because she enjoys it, her primary EC was a highly technical STEM— which every school discussed in an interview because it stood out. Plus, she had strong ACTs in science and math. So, she demonstrated she could do STEM, then specialized elsewhere.

Most kids can’t win the 14 APs across 5 core plus Eagle Scout and athlete race. So have your kid run their race.

2. Remember your kid may get 5 minutes of an AO’s attention. So take the time to package them— for their major and the school. Reference a specific program, specific research, a specific observation for why this school. Put the common App together so your kid’s high school tells a story, where classes plus ECs plus anything else all gel. Make it easy for the AO to read the app and quickly see why your kid wants their school, what they will contribute, and that they have the academic chops.

3. For instate VA, take ED if it’s an option. It can definately push middle of the pack kids into accept. We talked to DD and decided she would ED spring of junior year. So, her deadline was always October. So, she went through the whole research process— just sooner than most kids.

4. Don’t waste ED on a 1% chance. If you are in a position to ED, submit to a high match/ low reach and not Brown. Which was my DD’s original first choice. Then we checked Naviance. A sea of 4.5/1580 rejections (and she was not a 4.5) and one 3.7/1200 acceptance (which would be a seriously hooked kid)— in the last ten years. Brown? No realistic. Use ED to reach some. To turn a school that would be a WL in RD into an acceptance. But, be realistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1. Let your kid be themselves— but the best version of themselves. If you have an all arounder who can get 4s and 5s across all 5 cores in AP— great. But that’s not the only path. If your kid is pointy, use it to set them apart.

My kid got into a Tier 1 VA school this year with 2 AP foreign languages, a foreign language summer intensive in a third language and all of the English, History, Social Science APs offered except psych. 11 APs. But — 3 years of honors science, no senior science, no science APs. And standard math starting in A2, standard Calc, not AP. She loved her classes and had great grades. And was applying for a humanities major. She also did some unusual ECs in her major, and applied to continue with one EC . And because she enjoys it, her primary EC was a highly technical STEM— which every school discussed in an interview because it stood out. Plus, she had strong ACTs in science and math. So, she demonstrated she could do STEM, then specialized elsewhere.

Most kids can’t win the 14 APs across 5 core plus Eagle Scout and athlete race. So have your kid run their race.

2. Remember your kid may get 5 minutes of an AO’s attention. So take the time to package them— for their major and the school. Reference a specific program, specific research, a specific observation for why this school. Put the common App together so your kid’s high school tells a story, where classes plus ECs plus anything else all gel. Make it easy for the AO to read the app and quickly see why your kid wants their school, what they will contribute, and that they have the academic chops.

3. For instate VA, take ED if it’s an option. It can definately push middle of the pack kids into accept. We talked to DD and decided she would ED spring of junior year. So, her deadline was always October. So, she went through the whole research process— just sooner than most kids.

4. Don’t waste ED on a 1% chance. If you are in a position to ED, submit to a high match/ low reach and not Brown. Which was my DD’s original first choice. Then we checked Naviance. A sea of 4.5/1580 rejections (and she was not a 4.5) and one 3.7/1200 acceptance (which would be a seriously hooked kid)— in the last ten years. Brown? No realistic. Use ED to reach some. To turn a school that would be a WL in RD into an acceptance. But, be realistic.

Nice post!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Let your kid be themselves— but the best version of themselves. If you have an all arounder who can get 4s and 5s across all 5 cores in AP— great. But that’s not the only path. If your kid is pointy, use it to set them apart.

My kid got into a Tier 1 VA school this year with 2 AP foreign languages, a foreign language summer intensive in a third language and all of the English, History, Social Science APs offered except psych. 11 APs. But — 3 years of honors science, no senior science, no science APs. And standard math starting in A2, standard Calc, not AP. She loved her classes and had great grades. And was applying for a humanities major. She also did some unusual ECs in her major, and applied to continue with one EC . And because she enjoys it, her primary EC was a highly technical STEM— which every school discussed in an interview because it stood out. Plus, she had strong ACTs in science and math. So, she demonstrated she could do STEM, then specialized elsewhere.

Most kids can’t win the 14 APs across 5 core plus Eagle Scout and athlete race. So have your kid run their race.

2. Remember your kid may get 5 minutes of an AO’s attention. So take the time to package them— for their major and the school. Reference a specific program, specific research, a specific observation for why this school. Put the common App together so your kid’s high school tells a story, where classes plus ECs plus anything else all gel. Make it easy for the AO to read the app and quickly see why your kid wants their school, what they will contribute, and that they have the academic chops.

3. For instate VA, take ED if it’s an option. It can definately push middle of the pack kids into accept. We talked to DD and decided she would ED spring of junior year. So, her deadline was always October. So, she went through the whole research process— just sooner than most kids.

4. Don’t waste ED on a 1% chance. If you are in a position to ED, submit to a high match/ low reach and not Brown. Which was my DD’s original first choice. Then we checked Naviance. A sea of 4.5/1580 rejections (and she was not a 4.5) and one 3.7/1200 acceptance (which would be a seriously hooked kid)— in the last ten years. Brown? No realistic. Use ED to reach some. To turn a school that would be a WL in RD into an acceptance. But, be realistic.

Nice post!

+++

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read who gets in and why too, and while very insightful, I’m not sure it gives a magic formula.

What I took away from WGIAW it was:

Be very smart and get an A and 5 on BC Calc junior year (especially if female as this illustrates high quant IQ.)
Take the other hardest courses at your school and get As
Apply ED and EA
Be full pay
Be recruited for a sport
Most importantly, admission officers are human and make many seemingly random decisions

Anyway, this “recipe” is not possible for most kids. For my kids, we are going to do a lot of rolling and EA schools and be happy with those schools. We are not getting attached to any one perfect school. I am encouraging my kid to apply to schools they fit their areas of interest but have admission rates above 50%. Maybe they will try for one harder to get into school for ED but that will be balanced with others that are more likely.

PP. I don’t think the book gives a formula. I kind of gleaned one from the book and from anecdotes of friends and neighbors. It worked for us. Not saying it would work for others. But maybe it’s helpful for some who like to think in a “what helps” way. Lots of things don’t help. Some things do. Play those cards right and you improve your odds. That’s all I meant.

PP Can you tell us what you gleaned from it? What matters and what does not?

PP here. Yes! It’s grades, rigor, SAT/ACT, ECs, and applications. I also want to make clear that it isn’t at all about getting into a Top 20 college. It’s about aiming for what you think is best for your DC. You get the formula, maximize the variables in it, and that improves your odds for colleges that you’re targeting. It’s so simple people will think it’s stupid. But we just took each variable in turn during junior year and used our limited time and money on what mattered most, each of those variables. Like we said, we can’t control everything, but for the next 2 montres, we’re focusing on maximizing SAT score. Check. Next.

What I got out of the book was partly how many totally qualified students they see, and how they have to prune hard to get to a reasonably sized class. It helped me see that my kid's experience of being put on many waitlists was actually a sign of being qualified but just not having some (likely unchangeable) attributes desired by the school for that particular class.

Also how important it is to tell a coherent story about the student. Want to major in subject X but have showed no interest in it before (through classes, extracurriculars, etc.)? Not a great look. Say you couldn't do extracurriculars because of family obligations but then don't give enough detail about the time commitment? You haven't proven your case and it's hard to tell if you're an involved older sibling or just a slacker.

What I got from the book is that at a lot of these schools they have already reserved seats for certain students. At highly competitive SLACs, if you aren’t an athlete, you have a much lower chance at admission because they are filling a large percentage of that small freshman class with athletes to play on their sports teams. The majority of these athletes will be affluent white kids (water polo, tennis, LAX, sailing, hockey, etc.). If they are trying to build a diverse class and you have similar demographics as the athletes, many of those seats are already taken when you apply. You might be one of a 5,000 applicants competing for 15 spots. It is like with independent schools with strong sibling and alum preferences, they may tell you they are admitting 25 kids, but in actuality 18 of those spots are already taken so you are really competing for 7 spots. That’s what I wish seniors really understood. I blame the colleges and universities for helping create this landscape. If they were more open and said we need to admit between 140-150 athletes every year to fill our sports teams. Out of the 400 students in our freshman class, 160 are athletes and 40 are legacy. You’d then have a better sense that if you lacked that “hook”, you were competing for one of the remaining 200 spots which will be filled with an eye toward building a diverse class. As they decide who will make up that remaining 200, they will take into account the demographics of the 200 spots already taken by the athletes and legacy students. Knowing the typical demographics of the athletes and the legacies would give you a better sense of how under or over represented your demographic is. They might have already admitted a large number of students similar to you. If that’s the case, it is just going to be harder because they may want to balance the class out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Let your kid be themselves— but the best version of themselves. If you have an all arounder who can get 4s and 5s across all 5 cores in AP— great. But that’s not the only path. If your kid is pointy, use it to set them apart.

My kid got into a Tier 1 VA school this year with 2 AP foreign languages, a foreign language summer intensive in a third language and all of the English, History, Social Science APs offered except psych. 11 APs. But — 3 years of honors science, no senior science, no science APs. And standard math starting in A2, standard Calc, not AP. She loved her classes and had great grades. And was applying for a humanities major. She also did some unusual ECs in her major, and applied to continue with one EC . And because she enjoys it, her primary EC was a highly technical STEM— which every school discussed in an interview because it stood out. Plus, she had strong ACTs in science and math. So, she demonstrated she could do STEM, then specialized elsewhere.

Most kids can’t win the 14 APs across 5 core plus Eagle Scout and athlete race. So have your kid run their race.

2. Remember your kid may get 5 minutes of an AO’s attention. So take the time to package them— for their major and the school. Reference a specific program, specific research, a specific observation for why this school. Put the common App together so your kid’s high school tells a story, where classes plus ECs plus anything else all gel. Make it easy for the AO to read the app and quickly see why your kid wants their school, what they will contribute, and that they have the academic chops.

3. For instate VA, take ED if it’s an option. It can definately push middle of the pack kids into accept. We talked to DD and decided she would ED spring of junior year. So, her deadline was always October. So, she went through the whole research process— just sooner than most kids.

4. Don’t waste ED on a 1% chance. If you are in a position to ED, submit to a high match/ low reach and not Brown. Which was my DD’s original first choice. Then we checked Naviance. A sea of 4.5/1580 rejections (and she was not a 4.5) and one 3.7/1200 acceptance (which would be a seriously hooked kid)— in the last ten years. Brown? No realistic. Use ED to reach some. To turn a school that would be a WL in RD into an acceptance. But, be realistic.

Nice post!

+++

[Anonymous]

They can have normal lives, and enjoy the rest of their childhoods. That is the approach my child took. If you live in this area, though, you have to resist the pressures (evident on forum) to overwork and push yourself to unhealthy levels.

My kids tried her best in school. Took challenging courses that made sense for her career interest. When the time came for college, she had her pick of strong (not elite) schools with numerous offers of merit aid.

Strive for balance, and the confidence for her to follow her own path. Those traits will help her throughout life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The current situation is that colleges have become less predictable in whom they accept, in part due to test-optional admissions. It's not so much that college admission is more selective across the board, although it has certainly become so at the top universities and colleges, but that students are forced to widen their search and apply to more schools to ensure admission at one of them. And tuition increases every year, faster than salaries can keep up.

And that's a very bad thing. It puts the burden on the student and their family to navigate an extremely complex, non-transparent, process. Colleges and universities profit from the murkier admissions criteria ("holistic" and "equitable" my foot) to cherry-pick the class that suits them that year, to sculpt their brand and image. Profit, in the form of reputation and money, is the end goal, at the expense of individual students.

No other wealthy nation does this to its young people.

This is an odd thing to say. Very few state schools act like this toward their instate students. What you describe is mostly the practice of private schools.

Wrong Virginia state schools do this. - Mom of super high stat kid rejected/WL at every VA school applied to (and have plenty of company in my neighborhood).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I read who gets in and why too, and while very insightful, I’m not sure it gives a magic formula.

What I took away from WGIAW it was:

Be very smart and get an A and 5 on BC Calc junior year (especially if female as this illustrates high quant IQ.)
Take the other hardest courses at your school and get As
Apply ED and EA
Be full pay
Be recruited for a sport
Most importantly, admission officers are human and make many seemingly random decisions

Anyway, this “recipe” is not possible for most kids. For my kids, we are going to do a lot of rolling and EA schools and be happy with those schools. We are not getting attached to any one perfect school. I am encouraging my kid to apply to schools they fit their areas of interest but have admission rates above 50%. Maybe they will try for one harder to get into school for ED but that will be balanced with others that are more likely.

My kid did all of this (absolute hardest curriculum including A's in Calc 3 - 5's on all APs tests and is top 1% of his class) minus the recruited athlete and the highest he has been admitted to at this point is ranked #18 in his field.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The current situation is that colleges have become less predictable in whom they accept, in part due to test-optional admissions. It's not so much that college admission is more selective across the board, although it has certainly become so at the top universities and colleges, but that students are forced to widen their search and apply to more schools to ensure admission at one of them. And tuition increases every year, faster than salaries can keep up.

And that's a very bad thing. It puts the burden on the student and their family to navigate an extremely complex, non-transparent, process. Colleges and universities profit from the murkier admissions criteria ("holistic" and "equitable" my foot) to cherry-pick the class that suits them that year, to sculpt their brand and image. Profit, in the form of reputation and money, is the end goal, at the expense of individual students.

No other wealthy nation does this to its young people.

Disagree with this. There is an old article (maybe Economist) titled “the one shot society “ (about South Korea).

South Korea is quantitate though. High stress yes, but it's not subject to the hidden whims of AOs. I predict students within two years will be applying to 30 schools. My DC applied to 17 and it wasn't enough with all the random decision making.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The current situation is that colleges have become less predictable in whom they accept, in part due to test-optional admissions. It's not so much that college admission is more selective across the board, although it has certainly become so at the top universities and colleges, but that students are forced to widen their search and apply to more schools to ensure admission at one of them. And tuition increases every year, faster than salaries can keep up.

And that's a very bad thing. It puts the burden on the student and their family to navigate an extremely complex, non-transparent, process. Colleges and universities profit from the murkier admissions criteria ("holistic" and "equitable" my foot) to cherry-pick the class that suits them that year, to sculpt their brand and image. Profit, in the form of reputation and money, is the end goal, at the expense of individual students.

No other wealthy nation does this to its young people.

Disagree with this. There is an old article (maybe Economist) titled “the one shot society “ (about South Korea).

South Korea is quantitate though. High stress yes, but it's not subject to the hidden whims of AOs. I predict students within two years will be applying to 30 schools. My DC applied to 17 and it wasn't enough with all the random decision making.

What is your definition of "it wasn't enough?"

I suspect your kid's perceived FAILURE was in fact not making it into a school that you felt you could brag about. What a shame for your child if you communicated that disappointment.

How is he/she supposed to get excited about what they achieved, if you clearly are not excited for them. You sound selfish and status-driven. Love the child you have. Expect them to try their best, and when they do, express sincere proud about what that earned. That is what good parents do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Selectivity ≠ quality

How many kids whose dream school is Michigan really will hit the academic (or social or whatever) ceiling at Kansas (admit rate >90%)? 1%? 5%? Surely not 10%. Same is true for Williams rejects at St. Lawrence (admit rate almost 50%) or Whitman (admit rate >50%). Or Vandy rejects at Miami of Ohio (admit rate >90%). Or Carleton rejects at Wooster (admit rate >60%). Etc., etc., etc.

Kids (and especially their parents!) just need to recognize that they can be admitted to a school that will fit them and offer a great education--and get over that it might not appear on the first page of some ridiculous "ranking" list.

+100

My DC applied to 12 schools and is now in at 10, waiting for the last two. But multiple schools on DC's list were either the "second tier" options mentioned here or similar schools - and the schools to which DC applied to included 1 school with a 15% admit rate, 3 with a 25-35% admit rate, and the rest ranging from 40%-70% admission rates. That last group of schools, unlike the "dream" schools listed, mostly give a *lot* of merit aid, even to pretty normal kids, and would all be great places to get a great education. Indeed, at this point we're not entirely convinced that we should pay $40-60K a year more to go to one of the more selective schools, rather than bank that money for graduate school. Sometimes I think parents in this area are so status-obsessed, and that the DCs hear so clearly the message that only a T20 is worthwhile, that people really lose perspective. I also think that when people think their kid has to go to a T20 school to get a good education, they completely miss the fact that many, many families are choosing those "lower-tier" schools because it's what they can afford, even if their DC could be or was admitted somewhere more exclusive. I'm just happy my DC has so many great options. Before you discount schools like that, you might want to take a look - they are doing some really impressive things. Indeed, because they need to successfully teach kids at a broader range of skills/abilities, we thought there was a lot more impressive teaching and pedagogy going on.

[Anonymous]

This won’t work for the large majority of people but I bring it up anyway because it will apply to some of you: if your kid is genuinely unusual, or has strange or rare interests, lean into that pretty hard. Especially if they are at all charismatic and have good people skills. This is an alternate formula that worked out for my son and several of his friends this year

Hypothetical examples might include a lifelong interest in playing traditional irish music for fun, in your spare time (NOT an EC.). Saltwater aquarium building/ tending. A demonstrated passion for Snowmobiling (you own 3, you repair them yourself, you took your blind aunt on a snowmobile excursion in the adirondacks when everyone in the family said it couldn’t be done)

My son and his friends are all into T15 schools next fall with no hooks. Some are full pay but not all. They’re smart, yes, but that’s the starting point. What pushed them over the edge into acceptance I think was that each one is a little odd, in a good way. With good social skills. I’m sure their LOR support that and their essays too

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The current situation is that colleges have become less predictable in whom they accept, in part due to test-optional admissions. It's not so much that college admission is more selective across the board, although it has certainly become so at the top universities and colleges, but that students are forced to widen their search and apply to more schools to ensure admission at one of them. And tuition increases every year, faster than salaries can keep up.

And that's a very bad thing. It puts the burden on the student and their family to navigate an extremely complex, non-transparent, process. Colleges and universities profit from the murkier admissions criteria ("holistic" and "equitable" my foot) to cherry-pick the class that suits them that year, to sculpt their brand and image. Profit, in the form of reputation and money, is the end goal, at the expense of individual students.

No other wealthy nation does this to its young people.

No, but their way is worse. Only the top 10% on one test will get into college in some Asian countries. That's it. If you didn't feel well on test day or were tired or stressed, oh well. I'd much prefer our way where there are schools for every student. My kid is having a pretty low-stress high school experience because we are realistic. He will end up at a SLAC surrounded by students who didn't kill themselves trying to get into top 20 schools. The rankings I care about are which schools retain the highest number of students, 4 year graduation rate and happiest students.

Thank you. Every system has its pros and cons. The truth is that the less than stellar kids that are applying in the US would probably have been weeded out before their version of HS in most European countries. There’s a reason there are so many Asians in US colleges. If they could get in into college in their home country, they wouldn’t be here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think, as the cost of those so-called top-tier colleges keeps increasing, More and more parents of really strong students are just not willing to pay these outrageous prices, or we are unwilling to pay them. People are unwilling to take on debt to pay 40, 50, 60, $70,000 a year. A lot of parents right here on DC urban mounts managed to save a full tuition for their kids, but in the rest of the world most of us have not. As a result we are steering our kids to more reasonably priced state colleges. This makes state schools more competitive.

Agree, and there is absolutely a “trickle down” of students to the lower ranked public universities, as the highly ranked flagships become more competitive. Pitt and Auburn had a huge increase in applications (Auburn up 150% over two years) and some of the panic you see is folks whose kids didn’t get into what they thought were “safeties.”