Gaza war and College Campus Protests

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

Yes. I take seriously the feelings of Jewish Americans AND the feelings of Palestinian Americans. BOTh. Not one side.

If someone wants to put up posters of hostages AND Palestinian victims. And hold a vigil for Palestinians please lmk. I’m there! But if you want to say there is a “right” side in this mess or only one victim or that the US has to continue to send weapons to Israel without conditions - nope. Disagree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

OK, I hear you. I’m not arguing that feelings are irrelevant. However, I think a sober calibration of feelings vs. reality is where the disconnect occurs here.

And I think we also have to consider the impact of tearing down posters (her remedy) vs. the impact of relentlessly seeking to ruin the lives of those with whom one doesn’t agree (which, as we’ve seen, is too often the remedy in the Jewish community).

I’m going to leave the conversation tonight with one additional point relating to actual risks vs. perceived risks.

I have been actively and consistently VERY critical of Israel and what I consider to be extremist Zionist ideology here. It’s worth pointing out that I’ve also said, done, and/or thought NOTHING that should be considered supportive of Hamas.

I think Hamas is awful. I do think that Israel’s policies and actions are magnitudes more awful, primarily because the accumulated harm to the Palestinians has absolutely dwarfed the harm done to Israelis. But that doesn’t absolve Hamas for its sins.

However, if I saw on social media that a Jewish person - any Jewish person, maybe even Bibi - was actually being physically harmed in my community right now for the simple fact of their identity, I wouldn’t hesitate for even a second to act in their defense. Not for a second.

Despite what the “you’re either with us or else you’re anti-semitic!” crowd seem to think, the existential threat here should lead to a conversation about the plight of the Palestinians, not about the plight of a group that already has enough might and support on its side to sustain any and all threats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

OK, I hear you. I’m not arguing that feelings are irrelevant. However, I think a sober calibration of feelings vs. reality is where the disconnect occurs here.

And I think we also have to consider the impact of tearing down posters (her remedy) vs. the impact of relentlessly seeking to ruin the lives of those with whom one doesn’t agree (which, as we’ve seen, is too often the remedy in the Jewish community).

I’m going to leave the conversation tonight with one additional point relating to actual risks vs. perceived risks.

I have been actively and consistently VERY critical of Israel and what I consider to be extremist Zionist ideology here. It’s worth pointing out that I’ve also said, done, and/or thought NOTHING that should be considered supportive of Hamas.

I think Hamas is awful. I do think that Israel’s policies and actions are magnitudes more awful, primarily because the accumulated harm to the Palestinians has absolutely dwarfed the harm done to Israelis. But that doesn’t absolve Hamas for its sins.

However, if I saw on social media that a Jewish person - any Jewish person, maybe even Bibi - was actually being physically harmed in my community right now for the simple fact of their identity, I wouldn’t hesitate for even a second to act in their defense. Not for a second.

Despite what the “you’re either with us or else you’re anti-semitic!” crowd seem to think, the existential threat here should lead to a conversation about the plight of the Palestinians, not about the plight of a group that already has enough might and support on its side to sustain any and all threats.

+100. I acknowledge the plight of Israelis and sympathize with the fear they live under (well, the settlers who are living illegally maybe not so much, but those in Israel’s recognized borders). And I knowledge there is deep antisemitism in the world with horrible beyond words actions taken. And I acknowledge that some signs and slogan at students protest are hurtful and vandalism is not ok.

But I also see the physical and mental harm Israel is inflicting on Gaza and the Weat Bank and see thousands upon thousands of lives destroyed.

A) it is painful to watch and I have deep sympathy for all who are suffering and their families watching from abroad.

B) I think this action just makes Israel less safe in the long term. A kid who lost their leg and siblings and father - you bet he is going to hate Israel and Jews. How could he not? And of course it currently is what is endangering the hostages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

Yes. I take seriously the feelings of Jewish Americans AND the feelings of Palestinian Americans. BOTh. Not one side.

If someone wants to put up posters of hostages AND Palestinian victims. And hold a vigil for Palestinians please lmk. I’m there! But if you want to say there is a “right” side in this mess or only one victim or that the US has to continue to send weapons to Israel without conditions - nope. Disagree.

If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners.

I can advocate for the hostages and believe that Palestinians deserve not to live in a warzone. But I don't have to do it in the same breath. The pro-Palestine protesters certainly aren't ALSO calling for the release of the hostages at their rallies.

Maybe you're right and we SHOULD be doing that. But people are particular by nature, not universalist. That said, increasingly, the call to bring the hostages home is shining a light on Bibi's refusal to get a ceasefire deal. Advocating for one doesn't have to be at the exclusion of the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

Yes. I take seriously the feelings of Jewish Americans AND the feelings of Palestinian Americans. BOTh. Not one side.

If someone wants to put up posters of hostages AND Palestinian victims. And hold a vigil for Palestinians please lmk. I’m there! But if you want to say there is a “right” side in this mess or only one victim or that the US has to continue to send weapons to Israel without conditions - nope. Disagree.

If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners.

I can advocate for the hostages and believe that Palestinians deserve not to live in a warzone. But I don't have to do it in the same breath. The pro-Palestine protesters certainly aren't ALSO calling for the release of the hostages at their rallies.

Maybe you're right and we SHOULD be doing that. But people are particular by nature, not universalist. That said, increasingly, the call to bring the hostages home is shining a light on Bibi's refusal to get a ceasefire deal. Advocating for one doesn't have to be at the exclusion of the other.

“If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners”

No. But if someone took down one of your posters (especially if posted illegally) I wouldn’t take their photo, post it online, ask for their identification and then when finding it use that to find out their employer and organize a campaign to call employer and ask them to fire her.

Because that does happen THAT ia very good reason why protesters are hiding their faces.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

Yes. I take seriously the feelings of Jewish Americans AND the feelings of Palestinian Americans. BOTh. Not one side.

If someone wants to put up posters of hostages AND Palestinian victims. And hold a vigil for Palestinians please lmk. I’m there! But if you want to say there is a “right” side in this mess or only one victim or that the US has to continue to send weapons to Israel without conditions - nope. Disagree.

If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners.

I can advocate for the hostages and believe that Palestinians deserve not to live in a warzone. But I don't have to do it in the same breath. The pro-Palestine protesters certainly aren't ALSO calling for the release of the hostages at their rallies.

Maybe you're right and we SHOULD be doing that. But people are particular by nature, not universalist. That said, increasingly, the call to bring the hostages home is shining a light on Bibi's refusal to get a ceasefire deal. Advocating for one doesn't have to be at the exclusion of the other.

“If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners”

No. But if someone took down one of your posters (especially if posted illegally) I wouldn’t take their photo, post it online, ask for their identification and then when finding it use that to find out their employer and organize a campaign to call employer and ask them to fire her.

Because that does happen THAT ia very good reason why protesters are hiding their faces.

DP.

Seriously?

Suppose you own a business. One of your employees is an NRA member ands/he tears down posters of kids murdered in a school shooting.

WWYD?

I think most people would fire that person in a heartbeat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's past time to face the truth on that Hamas has never intended to return live hostages. The execution of six Israeli hostages, in my humble opinion, gives Israel the absolute to destroy Gaza and, quite frankly, the sooner the better.

By this logic, the 40,000 dead and 160,000 maimed give the world the right to stop sending weapons (and the Iron dome) and then Iran the right to unless fury

I don't think that logic works. Israel has been attacked first every time, which falls under rules of warfare "logic". I think the whole thing is a hot mess with blame on both sides, but there are consequences that the world acknowledges when you attack someone, and in this case take hostage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's past time to face the truth on that Hamas has never intended to return live hostages. The execution of six Israeli hostages, in my humble opinion, gives Israel the absolute to destroy Gaza and, quite frankly, the sooner the better.

By this logic, the 40,000 dead and 160,000 maimed give the world the right to stop sending weapons (and the Iron dome) and then Iran the right to unless fury

I don't think that logic works. Israel has been attacked first every time, which falls under rules of warfare "logic". I think the whole thing is a hot mess with blame on both sides, but there are consequences that the world acknowledges when you attack someone, and in this case take hostage.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/06/middleeast/american-activist-killed-west-bank-intl/index.html

Can you tell me more about this attack? I'm sure Biden will respond just as forcefully as when Hamas kills American citizens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's past time to face the truth on that Hamas has never intended to return live hostages. The execution of six Israeli hostages, in my humble opinion, gives Israel the absolute to destroy Gaza and, quite frankly, the sooner the better.

By this logic, the 40,000 dead and 160,000 maimed give the world the right to stop sending weapons (and the Iron dome) and then Iran the right to unless fury

I don't think that logic works. Israel has been attacked first every time, which falls under rules of warfare "logic". I think the whole thing is a hot mess with blame on both sides, but there are consequences that the world acknowledges when you attack someone, and in this case take hostage.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/06/middleeast/american-activist-killed-west-bank-intl/index.html

Can you tell me more about this attack? I'm sure Biden will respond just as forcefully as when Hamas kills American citizens.

It's quite clear that the US does not care when American citizens are killed by Israel.

Here's other Americans killed by Israel this year:
Tawfic Abdel Jabbar - age 17. https://apnews.com/article/american-teen-shooting-death-west-bank-violence-1783ff3a7fa5f65f5b792372fd093445
Mohammad Khdour - Age 17. https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/23/world/palestinian-americans-demand-answers-invs/index.html
Jacob Flickinger - https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/03/jacob-flickinger-world-central-kitchen-gaza-strike/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

Yes. I take seriously the feelings of Jewish Americans AND the feelings of Palestinian Americans. BOTh. Not one side.

If someone wants to put up posters of hostages AND Palestinian victims. And hold a vigil for Palestinians please lmk. I’m there! But if you want to say there is a “right” side in this mess or only one victim or that the US has to continue to send weapons to Israel without conditions - nope. Disagree.

If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners.

I can advocate for the hostages and believe that Palestinians deserve not to live in a warzone. But I don't have to do it in the same breath. The pro-Palestine protesters certainly aren't ALSO calling for the release of the hostages at their rallies.

Maybe you're right and we SHOULD be doing that. But people are particular by nature, not universalist. That said, increasingly, the call to bring the hostages home is shining a light on Bibi's refusal to get a ceasefire deal. Advocating for one doesn't have to be at the exclusion of the other.

“If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners”

No. But if someone took down one of your posters (especially if posted illegally) I wouldn’t take their photo, post it online, ask for their identification and then when finding it use that to find out their employer and organize a campaign to call employer and ask them to fire her.

Because that does happen THAT ia very good reason why protesters are hiding their faces.

DP.

Seriously?

Suppose you own a business. One of your employees is an NRA member ands/he tears down posters of kids murdered in a school shooting.

WWYD?

I think most people would fire that person in a heartbeat.

1) I'm not an employment lawyer but I see no basis for firing if the employee took down a poster outside my office and illegal posted (which it was in the case of the Dentist). If it was put up in my office as part of my own views/beliefs, I still not see cause to fire. I would talk to the employee and ask why the posters upset them and perhaps they would have a reasonable reason that would cause me not to post them anymore. If they said it's because they think school shooting are good, certainly I would be worried about the employee's mental health and might explore ways to separate from them and perhaps even alert law enforcement. However, if the employee said it's because the poster made them fearful that school shootings would come to their neighborhoods or is a reminder of trauma they experienced in the past, I would certainly consider removing the posters.

2) It wasn't the owner of the Dental business that was upset about the poster's removal. It was someone completely unrelated to the business who then organized campaign where the owner was called repeatedly and told unless he fired the Dentist they would stop going to his practice. His choice was to fire the Dentist or risk his business.

My point in sharing this story was to demonstrate why protesters want to hide their faces (and that the fact they do so because of fear of retaliation is not "antisemitic troupe".

If the story also helps you (or anyone) to open their minds to the fact that someone who removes a poster or joins in a pro-Palestinian protest may be an actual reasonable human being with their own life story and reasoning all the better. I can dream, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

Yes. I take seriously the feelings of Jewish Americans AND the feelings of Palestinian Americans. BOTh. Not one side.

If someone wants to put up posters of hostages AND Palestinian victims. And hold a vigil for Palestinians please lmk. I’m there! But if you want to say there is a “right” side in this mess or only one victim or that the US has to continue to send weapons to Israel without conditions - nope. Disagree.

If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners.

I can advocate for the hostages and believe that Palestinians deserve not to live in a warzone. But I don't have to do it in the same breath. The pro-Palestine protesters certainly aren't ALSO calling for the release of the hostages at their rallies.

Maybe you're right and we SHOULD be doing that. But people are particular by nature, not universalist. That said, increasingly, the call to bring the hostages home is shining a light on Bibi's refusal to get a ceasefire deal. Advocating for one doesn't have to be at the exclusion of the other.

“If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners”

No. But if someone took down one of your posters (especially if posted illegally) I wouldn’t take their photo, post it online, ask for their identification and then when finding it use that to find out their employer and organize a campaign to call employer and ask them to fire her.

Because that does happen THAT ia very good reason why protesters are hiding their faces.

DP.

Seriously?

Suppose you own a business. One of your employees is an NRA member ands/he tears down posters of kids murdered in a school shooting.

WWYD?

I think most people would fire that person in a heartbeat.

1) I'm not an employment lawyer but I see no basis for firing if the employee took down a poster outside my office and illegal posted (which it was in the case of the Dentist). If it was put up in my office as part of my own views/beliefs, I still not see cause to fire. I would talk to the employee and ask why the posters upset them and perhaps they would have a reasonable reason that would cause me not to post them anymore. If they said it's because they think school shooting are good, certainly I would be worried about the employee's mental health and might explore ways to separate from them and perhaps even alert law enforcement. However, if the employee said it's because the poster made them fearful that school shootings would come to their neighborhoods or is a reminder of trauma they experienced in the past, I would certainly consider removing the posters.

2) It wasn't the owner of the Dental business that was upset about the poster's removal. It was someone completely unrelated to the business who then organized campaign where the owner was called repeatedly and told unless he fired the Dentist they would stop going to his practice. His choice was to fire the Dentist or risk his business.

My point in sharing this story was to demonstrate why protesters want to hide their faces (and that the fact they do so because of fear of retaliation is not "antisemitic troupe".

If the story also helps you (or anyone) to open their minds to the fact that someone who removes a poster or joins in a pro-Palestinian protest may be an actual reasonable human being with their own life story and reasoning all the better. I can dream, right?

I think removing the posters implies an animus toward Israelis or Jews (whether or not that was the dentist's motivation, which, again, I haven't seen her motivation actually shared anywhere). In every other instance of people tearing down hostage posters that I've seen, they expressed anger at Israel, not fear for their safety or triggering trauma.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This does not end well for Gaza. I think that was clear from about Oct 10 on.

Clearly. It's crickets about Israel in the West Bank. Where is the outrage? Our neighbors brought their West Bank relatives to the US six months ago. I guess they knew this was going to spill over. Yet, people are still seething about poster removal.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If the violent people in masks are really Jewish agitators, why don't the other protesters de-mask them and show the world who they really are?

It is an antisemitic trope to imply that protestors need to mask in order to avoid retribution from the pro Israel American community for voicing their views.

I’d love to discuss this more. Doxing is a real thing with real consequences. I personally know of a periodontist in MA who was fired for removing an illegally posted hostage poster in Nov 23 after a photo was taken of her and posted by pro Isreal supporters.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/15/business/palestinian-americans-activists-doxxing

I don’t know who the masked people are at the student rallies. But I could see if I was one of them I would want to hide my face for fear of retribution which I know has been taken in the past.

How exactly is that antisemitism?

If the poster was put up illegally, call the non-emergency police number. Don't look like a Hamas-sympathizing a-hole by removing it yourself.

+1

Talk about disingenuous.

The poster wasn't removed b/c it was "illegally posted". The poster was removed b/c the periodontist didn't want people to sympathize with the hostages.

100% deserved to be fired.

Someone deserved to lose their job because they removed a poster?

Nah - I wouldn’t have done it, but justifying someone’s life being upended for the act of removing a poster (regardless what that means to you) is 100,000x more outrageous than what she actually did. The people that doxxed her are scumbags, and you’re a scumbag for trying to justify it.

And if you can’t see why removing a poster in Massachusetts that involves people in Israel doesn’t affect anyone at all at the level of someone losing their job, further shame on you. Some people refuse to justify the outrageous history of Israel’s atrocities, knowing that nobody puts up posters for the countless victims of Israel barbarity over the years.

You have a good point that doxxing is dangerous. But I don't think that suffering consequences for your actions in public is necessarily out of the question.

The posters are an awareness campaign about the hostages. What is the point in tearing them down, if not to downplay the crimes of Hamas? Most people would just walk past it. I came of age when social media was new and we were drilled and drilled about being careful what we posted online, because it could affect our future employment. They told us in college not to post pictures of ourselves plastered at frat parties, because potential employers might find it years later and pass on interviewing us. In the same vein, how you act in public spaces is out there for employers to see and judge accordingly. It might not be right or fair, but it is how it is.

Why do you assume you know the reason she took them down?

I’m the previous poster and she had two reasons for removing the poster:

1) she felt that the posters placed higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian and was offended by that.

2) she is from the region and thought she was safe in her new country. The posters made her feel that the conflict would now spill over into the US and she and her kids would be at risk of being grouped together with Hamas. Yes, she has suffered from Trauma and her instinctive flight or flight response was to remove a poster.

Did she say why she was taking them down? I haven't been able to find a statement from her about her motivations anywhere.

1. The posters don't have relativism built into them. Hamas took people from their beds and from a music festival and is holding them hostage. It's just a fact. The Palestinian people have also suffered horrific deaths; the hostage posters don't negate that fact either.

2. Feeling safe in America and fear of the conflict "spilling over into the US" ...Like Israelis and Jews literally seeing and hearing symbols of the terrorists calling for their death all over our city streets and college campuses? Pro-Palestine protesters are literally chanting "we're gonna bring the war home" at their rallies now. Hostage posters are not that.

With the over-the-top antics of the U.S. political class catering to Jewish Americans, do you sincerely expect anyone to believe that there are genuine fears of ANYTHING approaching rampant harm to Jews in America? I'm serious. As far as I can see, the only population completely insulated from risk of harm in America are the same people you want to convince us are actually the most vulnerable?

Are you not seeing the things that others see? FFS, the sitting Secretary of State literally threatened a body of judges in the ICC / ICJ over their fully justified hearing of a criminal complaint against Netanyahu! Members of the U.S. congress fall all over themselves to pledge loyalty to Israel, and won't even do the same for their constituents here in America.

You sincerely think we're going to see Jews attacked en masse in the U.S. without the National Guard called out to smash skulls and settle scores? Wake up.

We're talking about feelings. IF the dentist tore down the posters because she FELT threatened and we're supposed to take her fear as justification for her actions, then we also have to take seriously the feelings of Jews who encounter hate.

Yes. I take seriously the feelings of Jewish Americans AND the feelings of Palestinian Americans. BOTh. Not one side.

If someone wants to put up posters of hostages AND Palestinian victims. And hold a vigil for Palestinians please lmk. I’m there! But if you want to say there is a “right” side in this mess or only one victim or that the US has to continue to send weapons to Israel without conditions - nope. Disagree.

If I were putting up posters of the victims of gun violence in order to advocate for stronger gun laws in this country, you wouldn't ask me to ALSO put up posters of responsible gun owners.

I can advocate for the hostages and believe that Palestinians deserve not to live in a warzone. But I don't have to do it in the same breath. The pro-Palestine protesters certainly aren't ALSO calling for the release of the hostages at their rallies.

Maybe you're right and we SHOULD be doing that. But people are particular by nature, not universalist. That said, increasingly, the call to bring the hostages home is shining a light on Bibi's refusal to get a ceasefire deal. Advocating for one doesn't have to be at the exclusion of the other.

C'mon. The posters, and protests in Israel, aren't calling for a ceasefire, nor have they included a vigil for Palestinian lives.

[Anonymous]

College protesters should demand that the Biden administration retaliate against the Zionist pigs who killed an American in Nablus this week.

But of course this will not happen. They answer to their Jewish patrons and the message from our leaders will continue to be that only Jewish Lives Matter.

Kamala is no different than Biden or Trump. Just another purchased stooge for Israel.