Donnie Dumptruck says Mar-A-Lago's been searched by the FBI

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

NP. You are Deliberately obtuse. I believe the purpose of the Political forum is intelligent discourse to which you have made no contribution. The information you demand is easily available in the Internet.

It is not, because it doesn't exist.

NP
WTF, no previous former president ever needed everything written out. They stayed away from looking like they were committing a crime. So are you saying that Trump's defense will be that he took everything from the White House because it wasn't nailed down.

[Anonymous]

Is Faux news covering the story? Or are they fictionalizing their talking points ?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

Continue beating a dead horse and ignoring the distinction I made above between declassification and the powers of the sitting president generally. I have not once argued the procedures apply to the president. He can do what he wants with any and all classified information. He can “declassify” it but if there’s no record of it, then it didn’t happen, and you’re going to find yourself in a jail cell if you take documents with those kinds of markings home.

Yes, the issue is whether he can prove he declassified them. Which is what I said at the outset. Thanks for coming around.

If a document is declassified in my mind, and no one knows except for maybe like one guy who saw me say I wanted everything I ever read declassified, is it declassified? No. The answer is no.

Again: you need to come around to the distinction I am making between classification (which is a PROCESS for managing sensitive state secrets) and the power of the president to access and divulge secrets. Two different things.

Probably said somewhere in this thread but it feels like the Schrodinger's Cat defense.

TFG is both the president and not the president at the same time, you see. That’s the only way this works.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is Faux news covering the story? Or are they fictionalizing their talking points ?

If only they wouldn’t cover it. But alas, Hannity. Or I guess, fortunately? It was a pretty entertaining interview.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Judge Cannon got the message and just entered an order striking everything from her prior order appointing the special master that contemplated review of documents marked as classified from the special master review process.

This seemingly effectively blocks Trump from appealing the 11th circuit’s order to SCOTUS. Technically he could because the stay exists, but SCOTUS can’t remedy anything because even if it overturns the stay, it has zero effect in light of Cannon’s revision to the order. Trump’s only real option would be to appeal the revised order to the 11th circuit, which would most likely smack it down on effectively the same grounds as yesterday’s order.

I wonder if Cannon appreciated what she was doing when she amended the order?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is Faux news covering the story? Or are they fictionalizing their talking points ?

I jut googled. Johnny Depp has new girlfriend, Stacy Abrhas the nerve to exist, and PA gov race. Riveting

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

Continue beating a dead horse and ignoring the distinction I made above between declassification and the powers of the sitting president generally. I have not once argued the procedures apply to the president. He can do what he wants with any and all classified information. He can “declassify” it but if there’s no record of it, then it didn’t happen, and you’re going to find yourself in a jail cell if you take documents with those kinds of markings home.

Yes, the issue is whether he can prove he declassified them. Which is what I said at the outset. Thanks for coming around.

If a document is declassified in my mind, and no one knows except for maybe like one guy who saw me say I wanted everything I ever read declassified, is it declassified? No. The answer is no.

Again: you need to come around to the distinction I am making between classification (which is a PROCESS for managing sensitive state secrets) and the power of the president to access and divulge secrets. Two different things.

Probably said somewhere in this thread but it feels like the Schrodinger's Cat defense.

TFG is both the president and not the president at the same time, you see. That’s the only way this works.

Schrodinger's President?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This special master is backfiring on Trump spectacularly. Dearie is forcing his team to submit a bunch of declarations undermining their TV defenses (and taking them off the table for a future trial).

Love. It.

Dearie isn’t pleased with all of the yapping about. If you’re going to accuse the FBI of planting evidence perhaps have some evidence of your own before you start insinuating as much.

Your statements can and will be used against you and all that!

Trump is — at least nominally — the plaintiff who seeks return of materials siezed pursuant to the warrant. It is his burden to prove that he is legally entitled to the property.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judge Cannon got the message and just entered an order striking everything from her prior order appointing the special master that contemplated review of documents marked as classified from the special master review process.

This seemingly effectively blocks Trump from appealing the 11th circuit’s order to SCOTUS. Technically he could because the stay exists, but SCOTUS can’t remedy anything because even if it overturns the stay, it has zero effect in light of Cannon’s revision to the order. Trump’s only real option would be to appeal the revised order to the 11th circuit, which would most likely smack it down on effectively the same grounds as yesterday’s order.

I wonder if Cannon appreciated what she was doing when she amended the order?

Trump would have sought emergency relief by now if that was the plan. It is now moot. But then again moistness hasn’t stopped the activist Roberts court from advancing their agenda in a number of recent cases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judge Cannon got the message and just entered an order striking everything from her prior order appointing the special master that contemplated review of documents marked as classified from the special master review process.

This seemingly effectively blocks Trump from appealing the 11th circuit’s order to SCOTUS. Technically he could because the stay exists, but SCOTUS can’t remedy anything because even if it overturns the stay, it has zero effect in light of Cannon’s revision to the order. Trump’s only real option would be to appeal the revised order to the 11th circuit, which would most likely smack it down on effectively the same grounds as yesterday’s order.

I wonder if Cannon appreciated what she was doing when she amended the order?

Trump would have sought emergency relief by now if that was the plan. It is now moot. But then again moistness hasn’t stopped the activist Roberts court from advancing their agenda in a number of recent cases.

*mootness

Not sure about their moistness but Alito is pretty slimy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judge Cannon got the message and just entered an order striking everything from her prior order appointing the special master that contemplated review of documents marked as classified from the special master review process.

This seemingly effectively blocks Trump from appealing the 11th circuit’s order to SCOTUS. Technically he could because the stay exists, but SCOTUS can’t remedy anything because even if it overturns the stay, it has zero effect in light of Cannon’s revision to the order. Trump’s only real option would be to appeal the revised order to the 11th circuit, which would most likely smack it down on effectively the same grounds as yesterday’s order.

I wonder if Cannon appreciated what she was doing when she amended the order?

Trump would have sought emergency relief by now if that was the plan. It is now moot. But then again moistness hasn’t stopped the activist Roberts court from advancing their agenda in a number of recent cases.

*mootness

Not sure about their moistness but Alito is pretty slimy

Moist may be the nicest thing you can say about this court.

[Anonymous]

Seems like Dearie wants to make a recommendation that the ultimate resolution of any disputes regard the return of documents should be heard by Reinhart.

[Anonymous]

Dearie's order does everything possible to force Trump to dismiss this action. He's making Trump admit to a bunch of facts that will be used against him at trial (and in public opinion/media), making him pay $500/hr for an assistant to the SM, foreshadowing that he's going to rule against him on the ridiculous claim that EP would apply to the executive branch, making it clear that even if he successfully claims any of this is personal property he isn't getting it back, and making the process really fast so he gets little delay. And DOJ will keep investigating with the classified docs in the meantime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seems like Dearie wants to make a recommendation that the ultimate resolution of any disputes regard the return of documents should be heard by Reinhart.

Sure does, which is as it should be.