Donnie Dumptruck says Mar-A-Lago's been searched by the FBI

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

I fail to see how this is a defense. They are still secrets, whether or not he declassifies them. It's protected information that the U.S. does not want to fall into enemy hands. And they are the property of the government, not FPOTUS, so how can it possibly be legal for him to divulge their contents even if he supposedly declassified them (which of course, he did not)?

NDI is defined as information 1) the release of which would damage national security, 2) that is related to the military or national security, and 3) is closely held. Information is classified when an authorized government official determines it has the potential to cause damage to national security, and when it is classified there are controls on its disclosure. Information can be declassified when an authorized government official determines it no longer has the potential to cause damage to national security and once it is declassified the rules about disclosure go away. So if Trump as president really declassified these docs (he didn't), then he could claim they are not NDI because he, as president and an authorized government official, determined they would not harm national security and by declassifying them he removed the administrative controls on their disclosure.

[Anonymous]

Judge Dearie's (No BS) Case Management Plan - https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.106.0.pdf

Poor Donald, I think he's not going to be able to wiggle out of this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

This special master is backfiring on Trump spectacularly. Dearie is forcing his team to submit a bunch of declarations undermining their TV defenses (and taking them off the table for a future trial).

Love. It.

Dearie isn’t pleased with all of the yapping about. If you’re going to accuse the FBI of planting evidence perhaps have some evidence of your own before you start insinuating as much.

Your statements can and will be used against you and all that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Judge Dearie's (No BS) Case Management Plan - https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.106.0.pdf

Poor Donald, I think he's not going to be able to wiggle out of this one.

Ouch. That's rough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Judge Dearie's (No BS) Case Management Plan - https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.106.0.pdf

Poor Donald, I think he's not going to be able to wiggle out of this one.

This is awesome. He's specifically directing Trump to submit declarations stating: 1) whether the documents were in fact seized from MAL and if they were located in a place other than where the USG says they were, and 2) whether each document is a Presidential Record (i.e. belongs to the USG) or is personal. Essentially, he has to declare in a sworn statement whether he illegally had government records at MAL. That seems bad for him.

[Anonymous]

So can judge cannon have him taken off?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

Continue beating a dead horse and ignoring the distinction I made above between declassification and the powers of the sitting president generally. I have not once argued the procedures apply to the president. He can do what he wants with any and all classified information. He can “declassify” it but if there’s no record of it, then it didn’t happen, and you’re going to find yourself in a jail cell if you take documents with those kinds of markings home.

Yes, the issue is whether he can prove he declassified them. Which is what I said at the outset. Thanks for coming around.

Any yet, whether or not he declassified the documents when he was POTUS is irrelevant now, because he is no longer POTUS (Praise the Lord) and therefore he is in possession of property that belongs to the United States.

P.S. Biden could and should reclassify all of them today. Isn't that what they did to Hillary?

It is relevant to whether DOJ prosecutes under the Espionage Act. You are right that they could still prosecute under a bunch of other statutes, stealing government records being only one (and one of the most minor ones). They can also likely get him on obstruction, failing to comply with a GJ subpoena, and false statements (through conspiracy).

If you read up on the Scooter Libby prosecution, there were many similar issues. DOJ could possibly have prosecuted for disclosing classified information, but Libby could have defended that he was authorized by Bush or Cheney to do it. DOJ avoided the issue by charging false statements. It really wouldn't surprising if DOJ did that here, both to dodge the declassification issue and to try to protect having to disclose any classified information at trial.

18 USC 793 doesn't say anything about classification, just that the document should be "anything connected with the national defense". Which, these undoubtedly are.

Thank you!

Yes, this. TFG divulged information damaging to the US national security to someone hostile to our interests. That had to have happened, but to whom and how to prove it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

I fail to see how this is a defense. They are still secrets, whether or not he declassifies them. It's protected information that the U.S. does not want to fall into enemy hands. And they are the property of the government, not FPOTUS, so how can it possibly be legal for him to divulge their contents even if he supposedly declassified them (which of course, he did not)?

NDI is defined as information 1) the release of which would damage national security, 2) that is related to the military or national security, and 3) is closely held. Information is classified when an authorized government official determines it has the potential to cause damage to national security, and when it is classified there are controls on its disclosure. Information can be declassified when an authorized government official determines it no longer has the potential to cause damage to national security and once it is declassified the rules about disclosure go away. So if Trump as president really declassified these docs (he didn't), then he could claim they are not NDI because he, as president and an authorized government official, determined they would not harm national security and by declassifying them he removed the administrative controls on their disclosure.

Yes, I understand your point, but if you can prove that, despite his declassification, the information in the documents he disclosed is actually damaging to national security, wouldn't his disclosure then be illegal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

NP. You are Deliberately obtuse. I believe the purpose of the Political forum is intelligent discourse to which you have made no contribution. The information you demand is easily available in the Internet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judge Dearie's (No BS) Case Management Plan - https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.106.0.pdf

Poor Donald, I think he's not going to be able to wiggle out of this one.

This is awesome. He's specifically directing Trump to submit declarations stating: 1) whether the documents were in fact seized from MAL and if they were located in a place other than where the USG says they were, and 2) whether each document is a Presidential Record (i.e. belongs to the USG) or is personal. Essentially, he has to declare in a sworn statement whether he illegally had government records at MAL. That seems bad for him.

Your Honor, I invoke my Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate myself....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judge Dearie's (No BS) Case Management Plan - https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.106.0.pdf

Poor Donald, I think he's not going to be able to wiggle out of this one.

This is awesome. He's specifically directing Trump to submit declarations stating: 1) whether the documents were in fact seized from MAL and if they were located in a place other than where the USG says they were, and 2) whether each document is a Presidential Record (i.e. belongs to the USG) or is personal. Essentially, he has to declare in a sworn statement whether he illegally had government records at MAL. That seems bad for him.

Your Honor, I invoke my Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate myself....

We joke, but I think there is a very good chance he just does a peace out on the whole special master at this point. It was only good as a delay tactic, and it doesn't delay much now that DOJ is allowed to use the classified docs, which are by far the most important evidence for them. There is probably some other relevant stuff in the rest, but it's likely only tangential. And now Dearie is saying there's going to be a cost to Trump if wants to use this process.

[Anonymous]

Is that possible? Can they just say "uh, nevermind"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is that possible? Can they just say "uh, nevermind"?

Sure, if he decides not to seek the return of any of the seized materials and to concede that the government properly seized them. But if he walks away from this proceeding and then tries to seek return of the materials at another time, he likely would be deemed to have waived the argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

NP. You are Deliberately obtuse. I believe the purpose of the Political forum is intelligent discourse to which you have made no contribution. The information you demand is easily available in the Internet.

It is not, because it doesn't exist.

[Anonymous]

Your dumb defense is no defense. If Trump thinks he could mentally declassify a bunch of boxes of documents full of sensitive national security information and not notify anyone in the appropriate agencies, that would be ten times worse than just taking the boxes to MAL.