My child attends an elite college. It is overrated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid got into a topo 20 university through connections. He has immense intellectual capacity and works hard, but has major learning disorders. I so wish he was going to JMU. I know he would gain more confidence, surround himself with grounded people, and find his way there. Instead, he'll be surrounded by more of the same, overly intense, unsupportive, striving jerks he's been in high school with for the last four years. He does not see it that way, just taking after his father and that side of the family, who puts elitism ahead of what's best.

That’s hard to watch. Hugs, pp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does elite mean here?

Harvard, MIT, Stanford, and perhaps Princeton & Yale are elite.

Cornell, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Duke, etc. etc. are not.

And yes, even Harvard/MIT/Stanford/Princeton/Yale won't give your kid a $150k job, wealthy spouse (a 1950's reason to go to a elite school, but okay), and a wealthy, highly-connected friend group off the bat. And thank god for that.

The purpose of top schools is to have top professors and top students to learn from and compete with, and improve oneself in the process. Not a $150k job, wealthy spouse and highly-connected wealthy network.

What these schools do provide beyond the education though is a pedigree that lasts through 40+ years of one's careers, and certainly can come in handy down the line - if you want to use it.

As for the rest - Cornell, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Duke, etc., most people do not view these schools to be more "elite" than top state flagships like Berkeley, Michigan, etc. Most will consider these students to either be wealthy dumb kids (too dumb for HYPSM) or top middle-class kids, the same that attend top flagships.

You must not be in elite social circles. Dartmouth and Cornell are Ivy flat out and are therefore by definition elite.

This poster is clearly not from the South!

??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rich families do not obsess over this sort of thing anymore. They go wherever they want.

This!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does elite mean here?

Harvard, MIT, Stanford, and perhaps Princeton & Yale are elite.

Cornell, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Duke, etc. etc. are not.

And yes, even Harvard/MIT/Stanford/Princeton/Yale won't give your kid a $150k job, wealthy spouse (a 1950's reason to go to a elite school, but okay), and a wealthy, highly-connected friend group off the bat. And thank god for that.

The purpose of top schools is to have top professors and top students to learn from and compete with, and improve oneself in the process. Not a $150k job, wealthy spouse and highly-connected wealthy network.

What these schools do provide beyond the education though is a pedigree that lasts through 40+ years of one's careers, and certainly can come in handy down the line - if you want to use it.

As for the rest - Cornell, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Duke, etc., most people do not view these schools to be more "elite" than top state flagships like Berkeley, Michigan, etc. Most will consider these students to either be wealthy dumb kids (too dumb for HYPSM) or top middle-class kids, the same that attend top flagships.

You must not be in elite social circles. Dartmouth and Cornell are Ivy flat out and are therefore by definition elite.

This poster is clearly not from the South!

??

Meaning the PP said that Vandy was not elite, but it is big / highly regarded in the South.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We know OP. Our DC who attended the mediocre public has a much more successful career. Soft skills should be taught in college.

I am not sure the term soft skills is accurate. Developing leadership skills and a task focused work ethic are not “soft” endeavors.

I am from a poor single mother home. Awful circumstances, although I didn’t process it that way at the time. I went to Duke on athletic scholarship. Socially it was terrible as I had nothing in common with the elite kids there. But it really didn’t matter. I was there for a social life. Had to earn my keep athletically and get the most out of a free education. Riding the bus between east and west campus - I often reflected how privileged I was to get a first class education. I worked in a union during summers and knew the other side of life. Don’t want to paint the university as uncaring. My mother, with health and addiction problems, was only able to visit me once. My religion professor - I did not like humanities but accurately thought religion would round me out having zero background in any form of religion - got wind of my mother’s visit and invited to attend my class. My mother, who was not a student of any kind and did not attend college, felt like a million bucks. The professor also invited my mother to dinner with his family. My guess is that some of the Big 10 and SEC schools which recruited me would have had the same kind of family environment, but credit to the Duke faculty for stepping up. They let me in a competitive honors program, too - which they should not have but worked like heck to justify their choice - typing up my 125 thesis on the road after a top finish in a national competition.

Fast forward a generation. Sent my kids to public school - could not have imagined spending money for a private high school. Learning how to navigate large institutions is a life skill my daughters learned. Both were national merit finalists, and while they enjoyed a life completely unknown to me when I was young, they were hard workers and adopted the kind disposition of my mother. They went to Princeton - an excellent school but not a good value - and paying for it with no loans or debt was not easy, but I had to pay my good fortune forward. I think they would have been every bit as successful if they took the Echols Scholar offers at UVA, but Princeton was a place I was admitted but could not go due to finances (no athletic scholarships), and at least one of my kids went there (I discouraged it) as an honor to me. I admit my wife was a great student educated at the best schools in Montreal, but she shares my public school preferences.

I did exceedingly well in professional school and career. Certainly not smart like my kids. But the ability to focus and compete made the difference. And I didn’t pick up these attributes from Duke. The best thing for me was having no helicopter parents and learning to be accountable to the person in the mirror from early on. Mistakes were my own.

Thank you for sharing this - very inspiring story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it's too early to tell or maybe she just didn't capitalize on all the opportunities (I suspect very few do) but it most certainly has not changed her life. The thing I do notice is overall a higher percentage of deeply committed pre-med students than my son's peers at the state flagship. Other than that there's this laughable idea that an elite college is a golden ticket to a $150,000 job offer and a rich spouse and that's just not accurate. The plum six-figure job offers are scarce and go to the connected and elbowy overachievers with perfect grades. And generally the rich socialize with the rich. If you want your child in that orbit they need to be in that orbit by 9th grade at some ritzy prep or boarding school.

I have a niece at Cornell who is close with my daughter and she has had a similar experience. At Cornell the rich are in the rich kid sororities and fraternities.

A few years back we were caught up in the admissions frenzy but in retrospect it seems so nutty. I'm [now] far more impressed with a parent who tells me their kid is at a less selective school but just got into medical school than some Ivy League parent who tells me their ubiquitous kid is going into "consulting" for $60,000 a year or some second rate grad program.

Showy parents will brag about the prestigious college acceptance, they'll brag about move-in, they might even brag about a sophomore year study abroad trip. But then the bragging stops because there's nothing to brag about. Their kid was quickly humbled and will end up in the same 9 to 5 hybrid workplace gig any state schooler can get.

I have noticed this!

The most popular landing places for UPenn grads are nursing positions and vague analyst and consulting roles. These outcomes look like any state flagship.
https://careerservices.upenn.edu/post-graduate-outcomes/undergraduate-first-destinations/

These “vague analyst and consulting roles” disproportionately hire from Ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For ROI your major matters a lot more than your school name.

Even at Cornell, English, History or Performing Arts degrees have a crappy ROI - sorry, humanities fans.

I respectfully disagree when discussing the top 10 universities.

A Harvard or Yale degree will open doors for the rest of your life no matter the major. What you do once the door is open is up to you.

The ROI of a Harvard or Yale BA in English, Drama, and "Ethnic and Gender Studies", among other majors, is negative. The only way to turn that around is to get a graduate degree in something lucrative like law.

[Anonymous]

The lifelong prestige attending an elite carries is very real and not at all overrated.
Unfortunately, I still can't afford to pay for my kid to attend one.

[Anonymous]

I went to an Ivy decades ago, and this is the same experience I had then. I thought it would be great, and I found a lot of above-average students, but very few superstars. It has not helped me almost at all in my career. I should have gone to a lesser school and been a top student. I was intimidated at my Ivy, and I didn't work as hard as I could have. I thought I was going to be a B student at my Ivy, and it turned out that with a little effort, I would have been an A student. I didn't take advantage of a lot of opportunities at my Ivy either.
There was a lot of pushing and hyping at the school too, which I found off-putting. It really wasn't all it was cracked up to be, and I'm sorry I went there. I would have been happier at a lower-ranked but still very good college.

[Anonymous]

My best friend went to Harvard, and she's unemployed.
It's hardly a "lifetime" advantage to go to Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids also went to “elite” colleges. I think your reference to “elbowy overachievers” is gross. My DD definitely is a grind it out kind of student but also made plenty of close friends, was involved in a couple of clubs and in a sorority. Not elbowy at all. Her starting salary out of college was in the range you referenced. Even if it was half that, I would think she is doing well - but I never thought that her college was supposed to be a path to a high paying career. She had a great education and that was the goal. I think your take that it’s the well-connected or elbowy overachievers who benefit from the education is ridiculous, and you sound like you need to tear other kids down to feel better better about where your own kid has landed.

What was your daughter's major that her starting salary was 150?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid got into a topo 20 university through connections. He has immense intellectual capacity and works hard, but has major learning disorders. I so wish he was going to JMU. I know he would gain more confidence, surround himself with grounded people, and find his way there. Instead, he'll be surrounded by more of the same, overly intense, unsupportive, striving jerks he's been in high school with for the last four years. He does not see it that way, just taking after his father and that side of the family, who puts elitism ahead of what's best.

That’s hard to watch. Hugs, pp.

My kid is also intellectually gifted but saddled with a learning disability. She is at a large public school that gave her a lot of money. I'm so glad she's there for the reasons you mentioned. She is NOT surrounded by strivers, even though she's in the honors college. She has had some trouble finding kids as gifted as she is, but at this point in her first semester, she's found a handful, and that's enough, IMHO. I think she would have suffered if she had gone to a highly competitive SLAC or Ivy. She has taken on a leadership role in one of her classes where the semester-long group project had chained her to some fairly average kids who can't get the work done without her help. I'm really proud of her for taking on this role, as she's a shy introvert. I doubt this would have happened at an Ivy or competitive SLAC.

OTOH, it may be harder for her to find a job when she graduates because her school is not highly ranked. I think the emotional stability and self-confidence she's gaining will be worth it.

[Anonymous]

My dad went to Yale and just about the only college advice he gave me was that it doesn't matter where you go and the experience is what you make of it. I went to an average school and have a great life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For ROI your major matters a lot more than your school name.

Even at Cornell, English, History or Performing Arts degrees have a crappy ROI - sorry, humanities fans.

I respectfully disagree when discussing the top 10 universities.

A Harvard or Yale degree will open doors for the rest of your life no matter the major. What you do once the door is open is up to you.

The ROI of a Harvard or Yale BA in English, Drama, and "Ethnic and Gender Studies", among other majors, is negative. The only way to turn that around is to get a graduate degree in something lucrative like law.

Do you have any facts to support your claims?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For ROI your major matters a lot more than your school name.

Even at Cornell, English, History or Performing Arts degrees have a crappy ROI - sorry, humanities fans.

I respectfully disagree when discussing the top 10 universities.

A Harvard or Yale degree will open doors for the rest of your life no matter the major. What you do once the door is open is up to you.

The ROI of a Harvard or Yale BA in English, Drama, and "Ethnic and Gender Studies", among other majors, is negative. The only way to turn that around is to get a graduate degree in something lucrative like law.

Do you have any facts to support your claims?

Yes. You can look at the ROI of 30,000 degree programs here. As the author notes,

"attending an elite school is no golden ticket. Over 100 programs at colleges with an acceptance rate below 20% have negative ROI. Several U.S. News juggernauts such as Harvard, Penn, and Chicago all offer at least one program that leaves its students financially worse off. At Harvard University, students who major in ethnic and gender studies can expect an ROI of negative $47,000. The film and photographic arts program at the University of Pennsylvania has an ROI of negative $140,000."

https://freopp.org/is-college-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-1b2ad17f84c8