Waitlisted at TJ - now what?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Relax. Not the end of the world. Many TJ kids attending dame school as my non TJ senior. Except mine didn’t get the amount of stress Tj kids went through. Be a strong student at a base school. Tj is way over rated.

Depends on the base school. Let's not act like going to a mediocre base school provides the same peer group as TJ. And the bottom 10% of TJ students attend the same colleges as the top 10% of the base high school students.

This year top 10% of TJ are attending mediocre schools, my DC is one of them and so are many of her peers.

My DC is one of them too.

Precisely how are you defining the top 10% of TJ and precisely how are you defining mediocre schools?

DC has >4.6GPA, international/national/state awards in FPS, debate, hackathon, etc to name a few with 2 officer positions in school clubs and volunteering. And is going to a T50 school. I am pretty sure with this stats, kids went to a T10 or atleast T20 before.

DP. Used to be employed at a top-25 school where my office regularly interfaced with admissions. Two mistakes that high-end students make all of the time in the admissions process:

1) Especially with the prevalence of the Common App, they don't do enough to convince the school that they'll accept the offer if given. This is important because parents are obsessed with rankings, and therefore more and more admissions offices are obsessed with rankings (see the recent scandal at Columbia). Admissions offices want two numbers to be optimized - their admit rate (which needs to be low, and supported by a higher number of applications) and their yield rate (which needs to be high, meaning that a high percentage of students offered end up matriculating). This is the biggest reason why students who appear exceptional like yours do not get admitted to schools that they seemingly should coast into based purely on stats - it doesn't help admissions offices in any way to extend an offer to a student who they think will turn it down.

2) They don't do enough to explain to the school how they will contribute to the overall academic environment once they're there. Universities don't get very much (beyond a tuition check) out of a student who is simply going to show up on campus, excel in their schoolwork, and then take their degree off to the private sector never to be heard from again. There are no end of students who, believe it or not, have very similar profiles to your student. Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ - your assessment that they're in the top 10% is probably generous because you're placing too much weight on the GPA. Admissions officers love activities that show a student's desire to be a part of and contribute to something bigger than themselves; this is why activities like FPS, debate, hackathon, individual sports like golf or tennis or wrestling, and other such activities aren't looked upon as strongly as tutoring, team sports, performing arts, and service organizations.

In the end, most elite schools would rather graduate a student who was deeply engaged in campus activities than a 4.0 kid who did nothing but study - because the deeply engaged kid is more likely to donate and contribute in other ways to the school down the road. College is a business, and they behave as such.

"Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ " ==> this is definitely NOT true. sure, there are more than a handful, but definitely not a ton from TJ. Volunteering involved tutoring & being a part of a service org. DC was genuine in essays and didn't embellish or extrapolate anything in them.

Our school alone, in a normal year, would have received something like 30-40 applications from TJ alone (amongst many others) that looked very much like what you described above. That's a ton from an admissions office perspective, given that most other schools would be lucky to have two.

By the way, this problem isn't solely related to TJ students. As a whole, most families have no idea what college admissions officers are looking for - and part of that is because they're very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school. Colleges don't need hundreds of students in a class who all have similar resumes and profiles.

My DC didn't get in, so you are trying to substantiate the outcome. Some of my DC's friends with similar profiles got in while some others didn't just like my DC. The reality is we don't know why one got in and the other with a similar profile didn't because at the end, it is all subjective. "different backgrounds and with different interests" are NOT the only things in consideration. On top of all these, the schools have not increased their sizes to match the growing demand.

Of course it's subjective. Job applications are subjective, choosing a mate is subjective - that's life.

The college admissions process MUST remain subjective so that colleges can continue to make decisions about which students are the right fit for the campus that they want to have. Objectivity in any selection process leads to homogeneity in the selected body - witness TJ for essentially its entire previous history, including, obviously, the time during which it was far too white.

Then lets just stop with saying the admissions process is subjective. Let's not glorify by saying "very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school." This is just BS. Not all accepted students are intellectually curious or gifted or share genuine deep enthusiasm for the school.

[Anonymous]

go to your normal high school - that's what

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Relax. Not the end of the world. Many TJ kids attending dame school as my non TJ senior. Except mine didn’t get the amount of stress Tj kids went through. Be a strong student at a base school. Tj is way over rated.

Depends on the base school. Let's not act like going to a mediocre base school provides the same peer group as TJ. And the bottom 10% of TJ students attend the same colleges as the top 10% of the base high school students.

This year top 10% of TJ are attending mediocre schools, my DC is one of them and so are many of her peers.

My DC is one of them too.

What? What does this mean? You were the top 10% at TJ and NOW you are at a different school. I dont follow. If you were in, just stay in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Relax. Not the end of the world. Many TJ kids attending dame school as my non TJ senior. Except mine didn’t get the amount of stress Tj kids went through. Be a strong student at a base school. Tj is way over rated.

Depends on the base school. Let's not act like going to a mediocre base school provides the same peer group as TJ. And the bottom 10% of TJ students attend the same colleges as the top 10% of the base high school students.

This year top 10% of TJ are attending mediocre schools, my DC is one of them and so are many of her peers.

My DC is one of them too.

What? What does this mean? You were the top 10% at TJ and NOW you are at a different school. I dont follow. If you were in, just stay in.

This is a different poster. Don't get confused just because both said the same sentence.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Relax. Not the end of the world. Many TJ kids attending dame school as my non TJ senior. Except mine didn’t get the amount of stress Tj kids went through. Be a strong student at a base school. Tj is way over rated.

Depends on the base school. Let's not act like going to a mediocre base school provides the same peer group as TJ. And the bottom 10% of TJ students attend the same colleges as the top 10% of the base high school students.

This year top 10% of TJ are attending mediocre schools, my DC is one of them and so are many of her peers.

My DC is one of them too.

Precisely how are you defining the top 10% of TJ and precisely how are you defining mediocre schools?

DC has >4.6GPA, international/national/state awards in FPS, debate, hackathon, etc to name a few with 2 officer positions in school clubs and volunteering. And is going to a T50 school. I am pretty sure with this stats, kids went to a T10 or atleast T20 before.

DP. Used to be employed at a top-25 school where my office regularly interfaced with admissions. Two mistakes that high-end students make all of the time in the admissions process:

1) Especially with the prevalence of the Common App, they don't do enough to convince the school that they'll accept the offer if given. This is important because parents are obsessed with rankings, and therefore more and more admissions offices are obsessed with rankings (see the recent scandal at Columbia). Admissions offices want two numbers to be optimized - their admit rate (which needs to be low, and supported by a higher number of applications) and their yield rate (which needs to be high, meaning that a high percentage of students offered end up matriculating). This is the biggest reason why students who appear exceptional like yours do not get admitted to schools that they seemingly should coast into based purely on stats - it doesn't help admissions offices in any way to extend an offer to a student who they think will turn it down.

2) They don't do enough to explain to the school how they will contribute to the overall academic environment once they're there. Universities don't get very much (beyond a tuition check) out of a student who is simply going to show up on campus, excel in their schoolwork, and then take their degree off to the private sector never to be heard from again. There are no end of students who, believe it or not, have very similar profiles to your student. Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ - your assessment that they're in the top 10% is probably generous because you're placing too much weight on the GPA. Admissions officers love activities that show a student's desire to be a part of and contribute to something bigger than themselves; this is why activities like FPS, debate, hackathon, individual sports like golf or tennis or wrestling, and other such activities aren't looked upon as strongly as tutoring, team sports, performing arts, and service organizations.

In the end, most elite schools would rather graduate a student who was deeply engaged in campus activities than a 4.0 kid who did nothing but study - because the deeply engaged kid is more likely to donate and contribute in other ways to the school down the road. College is a business, and they behave as such.

"Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ " ==> this is definitely NOT true. sure, there are more than a handful, but definitely not a ton from TJ. Volunteering involved tutoring & being a part of a service org. DC was genuine in essays and didn't embellish or extrapolate anything in them.

Our school alone, in a normal year, would have received something like 30-40 applications from TJ alone (amongst many others) that looked very much like what you described above. That's a ton from an admissions office perspective, given that most other schools would be lucky to have two.

By the way, this problem isn't solely related to TJ students. As a whole, most families have no idea what college admissions officers are looking for - and part of that is because they're very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school. Colleges don't need hundreds of students in a class who all have similar resumes and profiles.

I wish I could understand how the AOs could figure out deep enthusiasm for the school from the applicant's short essay(s) that address a specific question.

It's a good thing that you can't, because then folks would be able to fake it. Curie would teach classes in it and charge thousands.

Wealthy people already can and do fake it using expensive college consultants who know precisely the best way to present a child. PP’s child was probably leapfrogged by less talented kids who had better college consultants.

Our TJ student was no less talented than the PP’s child (e.g., captain of the two school clubs, not just an officer), and we hired a college consultant to help the student present themselves. It’s not sufficient to manufacture a great product, you also need to advertise and sell it.

Which college did your kid get into?

T10

Do you think the college consultant really helped? That if not for the consultant, your DC wouldn't have gotten into a T10?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Relax. Not the end of the world. Many TJ kids attending dame school as my non TJ senior. Except mine didn’t get the amount of stress Tj kids went through. Be a strong student at a base school. Tj is way over rated.

Depends on the base school. Let's not act like going to a mediocre base school provides the same peer group as TJ. And the bottom 10% of TJ students attend the same colleges as the top 10% of the base high school students.

This year top 10% of TJ are attending mediocre schools, my DC is one of them and so are many of her peers.

My DC is one of them too.

Precisely how are you defining the top 10% of TJ and precisely how are you defining mediocre schools?

DC has >4.6GPA, international/national/state awards in FPS, debate, hackathon, etc to name a few with 2 officer positions in school clubs and volunteering. And is going to a T50 school. I am pretty sure with this stats, kids went to a T10 or atleast T20 before.

DP. Used to be employed at a top-25 school where my office regularly interfaced with admissions. Two mistakes that high-end students make all of the time in the admissions process:

1) Especially with the prevalence of the Common App, they don't do enough to convince the school that they'll accept the offer if given. This is important because parents are obsessed with rankings, and therefore more and more admissions offices are obsessed with rankings (see the recent scandal at Columbia). Admissions offices want two numbers to be optimized - their admit rate (which needs to be low, and supported by a higher number of applications) and their yield rate (which needs to be high, meaning that a high percentage of students offered end up matriculating). This is the biggest reason why students who appear exceptional like yours do not get admitted to schools that they seemingly should coast into based purely on stats - it doesn't help admissions offices in any way to extend an offer to a student who they think will turn it down.

2) They don't do enough to explain to the school how they will contribute to the overall academic environment once they're there. Universities don't get very much (beyond a tuition check) out of a student who is simply going to show up on campus, excel in their schoolwork, and then take their degree off to the private sector never to be heard from again. There are no end of students who, believe it or not, have very similar profiles to your student. Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ - your assessment that they're in the top 10% is probably generous because you're placing too much weight on the GPA. Admissions officers love activities that show a student's desire to be a part of and contribute to something bigger than themselves; this is why activities like FPS, debate, hackathon, individual sports like golf or tennis or wrestling, and other such activities aren't looked upon as strongly as tutoring, team sports, performing arts, and service organizations.

In the end, most elite schools would rather graduate a student who was deeply engaged in campus activities than a 4.0 kid who did nothing but study - because the deeply engaged kid is more likely to donate and contribute in other ways to the school down the road. College is a business, and they behave as such.

"Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ " ==> this is definitely NOT true. sure, there are more than a handful, but definitely not a ton from TJ. Volunteering involved tutoring & being a part of a service org. DC was genuine in essays and didn't embellish or extrapolate anything in them.

Our school alone, in a normal year, would have received something like 30-40 applications from TJ alone (amongst many others) that looked very much like what you described above. That's a ton from an admissions office perspective, given that most other schools would be lucky to have two.

By the way, this problem isn't solely related to TJ students. As a whole, most families have no idea what college admissions officers are looking for - and part of that is because they're very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school. Colleges don't need hundreds of students in a class who all have similar resumes and profiles.

I wish I could understand how the AOs could figure out deep enthusiasm for the school from the applicant's short essay(s) that address a specific question.

It's a good thing that you can't, because then folks would be able to fake it. Curie would teach classes in it and charge thousands.

Wealthy people already can and do fake it using expensive college consultants who know precisely the best way to present a child. PP’s child was probably leapfrogged by less talented kids who had better college consultants.

Our TJ student was no less talented than the PP’s child (e.g., captain of the two school clubs, not just an officer), and we hired a college consultant to help the student present themselves. It’s not sufficient to manufacture a great product, you also need to advertise and sell it.

DP. I had a family friend with one of those major top-end TJ kids a few years ago, one of the captains of a very prestigious academic team, BC Calc as a freshman, high-4s GPA, and played a sport.

Asked me for help with the interview process for an Ivy League school so I did, having gone to TJ myself and through the interview process. First time we sat down, was incredibly nervous and saw the experience as an opportunity to run down all of their accomplishments in an extremely robotic fashion. Brow furrowed the entire time, fairly obviously searching for points to make and talking points to get across.

After a few sessions of work on relaxing, smiling, engaging with the interviewer about their experience and demonstrating curiosity, and talking more about the reasons why this kid was attracted to this school, we had made incredible progress. The kid had to be reminded repeatedly that the person interviewing them had already seen their resume.

A couple of weeks later, the kid left their interview feeling confident and like it was a really positive back-and-forth. They're getting ready to start their third year at Yale.

Sometimes, these kids just need to be told to relax, be a human being, and enjoy interacting with someone else who is like-minded. It's nothing brilliant, but the family is convinced that it was the key to success in the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Relax. Not the end of the world. Many TJ kids attending dame school as my non TJ senior. Except mine didn’t get the amount of stress Tj kids went through. Be a strong student at a base school. Tj is way over rated.

Depends on the base school. Let's not act like going to a mediocre base school provides the same peer group as TJ. And the bottom 10% of TJ students attend the same colleges as the top 10% of the base high school students.

This year top 10% of TJ are attending mediocre schools, my DC is one of them and so are many of her peers.

My DC is one of them too.

Precisely how are you defining the top 10% of TJ and precisely how are you defining mediocre schools?

DC has >4.6GPA, international/national/state awards in FPS, debate, hackathon, etc to name a few with 2 officer positions in school clubs and volunteering. And is going to a T50 school. I am pretty sure with this stats, kids went to a T10 or atleast T20 before.

DP. Used to be employed at a top-25 school where my office regularly interfaced with admissions. Two mistakes that high-end students make all of the time in the admissions process:

1) Especially with the prevalence of the Common App, they don't do enough to convince the school that they'll accept the offer if given. This is important because parents are obsessed with rankings, and therefore more and more admissions offices are obsessed with rankings (see the recent scandal at Columbia). Admissions offices want two numbers to be optimized - their admit rate (which needs to be low, and supported by a higher number of applications) and their yield rate (which needs to be high, meaning that a high percentage of students offered end up matriculating). This is the biggest reason why students who appear exceptional like yours do not get admitted to schools that they seemingly should coast into based purely on stats - it doesn't help admissions offices in any way to extend an offer to a student who they think will turn it down.

2) They don't do enough to explain to the school how they will contribute to the overall academic environment once they're there. Universities don't get very much (beyond a tuition check) out of a student who is simply going to show up on campus, excel in their schoolwork, and then take their degree off to the private sector never to be heard from again. There are no end of students who, believe it or not, have very similar profiles to your student. Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ - your assessment that they're in the top 10% is probably generous because you're placing too much weight on the GPA. Admissions officers love activities that show a student's desire to be a part of and contribute to something bigger than themselves; this is why activities like FPS, debate, hackathon, individual sports like golf or tennis or wrestling, and other such activities aren't looked upon as strongly as tutoring, team sports, performing arts, and service organizations.

In the end, most elite schools would rather graduate a student who was deeply engaged in campus activities than a 4.0 kid who did nothing but study - because the deeply engaged kid is more likely to donate and contribute in other ways to the school down the road. College is a business, and they behave as such.

"Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ " ==> this is definitely NOT true. sure, there are more than a handful, but definitely not a ton from TJ. Volunteering involved tutoring & being a part of a service org. DC was genuine in essays and didn't embellish or extrapolate anything in them.

Our school alone, in a normal year, would have received something like 30-40 applications from TJ alone (amongst many others) that looked very much like what you described above. That's a ton from an admissions office perspective, given that most other schools would be lucky to have two.

By the way, this problem isn't solely related to TJ students. As a whole, most families have no idea what college admissions officers are looking for - and part of that is because they're very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school. Colleges don't need hundreds of students in a class who all have similar resumes and profiles.

My DC didn't get in, so you are trying to substantiate the outcome. Some of my DC's friends with similar profiles got in while some others didn't just like my DC. The reality is we don't know why one got in and the other with a similar profile didn't because at the end, it is all subjective. "different backgrounds and with different interests" are NOT the only things in consideration. On top of all these, the schools have not increased their sizes to match the growing demand.

Of course it's subjective. Job applications are subjective, choosing a mate is subjective - that's life.

The college admissions process MUST remain subjective so that colleges can continue to make decisions about which students are the right fit for the campus that they want to have. Objectivity in any selection process leads to homogeneity in the selected body - witness TJ for essentially its entire previous history, including, obviously, the time during which it was far too white.

Then lets just stop with saying the admissions process is subjective. Let's not glorify by saying "very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school." This is just BS. Not all accepted students are intellectually curious or gifted or share genuine deep enthusiasm for the school.

...Subjectivity and intent are not mutually exclusive. People get paid extremely well for their skill in identifying talent, and the only reason that it's a valued skill is subjectivity. If evaluating talent were objective, a computer could do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Relax. Not the end of the world. Many TJ kids attending dame school as my non TJ senior. Except mine didn’t get the amount of stress Tj kids went through. Be a strong student at a base school. Tj is way over rated.

Depends on the base school. Let's not act like going to a mediocre base school provides the same peer group as TJ. And the bottom 10% of TJ students attend the same colleges as the top 10% of the base high school students.

This year top 10% of TJ are attending mediocre schools, my DC is one of them and so are many of her peers.

My DC is one of them too.

Precisely how are you defining the top 10% of TJ and precisely how are you defining mediocre schools?

DC has >4.6GPA, international/national/state awards in FPS, debate, hackathon, etc to name a few with 2 officer positions in school clubs and volunteering. And is going to a T50 school. I am pretty sure with this stats, kids went to a T10 or atleast T20 before.

DP. Used to be employed at a top-25 school where my office regularly interfaced with admissions. Two mistakes that high-end students make all of the time in the admissions process:

1) Especially with the prevalence of the Common App, they don't do enough to convince the school that they'll accept the offer if given. This is important because parents are obsessed with rankings, and therefore more and more admissions offices are obsessed with rankings (see the recent scandal at Columbia). Admissions offices want two numbers to be optimized - their admit rate (which needs to be low, and supported by a higher number of applications) and their yield rate (which needs to be high, meaning that a high percentage of students offered end up matriculating). This is the biggest reason why students who appear exceptional like yours do not get admitted to schools that they seemingly should coast into based purely on stats - it doesn't help admissions offices in any way to extend an offer to a student who they think will turn it down.

2) They don't do enough to explain to the school how they will contribute to the overall academic environment once they're there. Universities don't get very much (beyond a tuition check) out of a student who is simply going to show up on campus, excel in their schoolwork, and then take their degree off to the private sector never to be heard from again. There are no end of students who, believe it or not, have very similar profiles to your student. Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ - your assessment that they're in the top 10% is probably generous because you're placing too much weight on the GPA. Admissions officers love activities that show a student's desire to be a part of and contribute to something bigger than themselves; this is why activities like FPS, debate, hackathon, individual sports like golf or tennis or wrestling, and other such activities aren't looked upon as strongly as tutoring, team sports, performing arts, and service organizations.

In the end, most elite schools would rather graduate a student who was deeply engaged in campus activities than a 4.0 kid who did nothing but study - because the deeply engaged kid is more likely to donate and contribute in other ways to the school down the road. College is a business, and they behave as such.

"Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ " ==> this is definitely NOT true. sure, there are more than a handful, but definitely not a ton from TJ. Volunteering involved tutoring & being a part of a service org. DC was genuine in essays and didn't embellish or extrapolate anything in them.

Our school alone, in a normal year, would have received something like 30-40 applications from TJ alone (amongst many others) that looked very much like what you described above. That's a ton from an admissions office perspective, given that most other schools would be lucky to have two.

By the way, this problem isn't solely related to TJ students. As a whole, most families have no idea what college admissions officers are looking for - and part of that is because they're very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school. Colleges don't need hundreds of students in a class who all have similar resumes and profiles.

I wish I could understand how the AOs could figure out deep enthusiasm for the school from the applicant's short essay(s) that address a specific question.

It's a good thing that you can't, because then folks would be able to fake it. Curie would teach classes in it and charge thousands.

Wealthy people already can and do fake it using expensive college consultants who know precisely the best way to present a child. PP’s child was probably leapfrogged by less talented kids who had better college consultants.

Our TJ student was no less talented than the PP’s child (e.g., captain of the two school clubs, not just an officer), and we hired a college consultant to help the student present themselves. It’s not sufficient to manufacture a great product, you also need to advertise and sell it.

DP. I had a family friend with one of those major top-end TJ kids a few years ago, one of the captains of a very prestigious academic team, BC Calc as a freshman, high-4s GPA, and played a sport.

Asked me for help with the interview process for an Ivy League school so I did, having gone to TJ myself and through the interview process. First time we sat down, was incredibly nervous and saw the experience as an opportunity to run down all of their accomplishments in an extremely robotic fashion. Brow furrowed the entire time, fairly obviously searching for points to make and talking points to get across.

After a few sessions of work on relaxing, smiling, engaging with the interviewer about their experience and demonstrating curiosity, and talking more about the reasons why this kid was attracted to this school, we had made incredible progress. The kid had to be reminded repeatedly that the person interviewing them had already seen their resume.

A couple of weeks later, the kid left their interview feeling confident and like it was a really positive back-and-forth. They're getting ready to start their third year at Yale.

Sometimes, these kids just need to be told to relax, be a human being, and enjoy interacting with someone else who is like-minded. It's nothing brilliant, but the family is convinced that it was the key to success in the process.

It is really helpful for making the kid feeling confident and engaged during conversations. But do the alumni interviews really have a say in the admissions? I don't think so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious to know why folks are so mad at the new process:

- Min GPA requirement
- Math or Science Problem Essay
- Essay about skills/goals
- Pick the top 1-2 % from each school


Doesnt seem so different from a college application?

Harvard would look at experience factors also.

There is the small matter of teacher recommendations that colleges look at.

And Harvard is no gold standard - the Supreme Court will have a say soon.

And Harvard arrived at the “experience factors” because too many Jewish kids were making it on objective criteria. Yes there is your parallel with Harvard.

This was true a century ago but has not been for at least the past fifty years.

It's funny that you say that Harvard is no gold standard but that's still the school that every parent in your community wants the bumper sticker of. Sour grapes, I suppose.

Ironically one of the things that makes it great is its diverse student body.

BINGO. And it is rapidly becoming one of the great things about TJ.

“BINGO” - Great in the spirit of Make America Great Again. Congratulations

Make America Great Again exists in contradistinction to the forces seeking to desegregate TJ. MAGA wants to re-segregate TJ.

Foot in the mouth much! Did not know desegregation was a goal of reform. Such racism.

It's this twisted idea diversity is racist. Similarly, I guess one could argue the civil war was racist against the south since it was against policies that benefited the wealthy at the expense of other groups, but this is just crazy talk.

What is being called racist here is PPs assumption that there was segregation at TJ and there was need to desegregate. There was lack of diversity - we can agree on that. But there was no segregation. This is the anti-Asian trope that is bandied about.

Segregation is "the enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment". That was not happening at TJ. The process resulted in an imbalanced demographic mix but nobody was enforcing anything. To imply that is absolutely racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Relax. Not the end of the world. Many TJ kids attending dame school as my non TJ senior. Except mine didn’t get the amount of stress Tj kids went through. Be a strong student at a base school. Tj is way over rated.

Depends on the base school. Let's not act like going to a mediocre base school provides the same peer group as TJ. And the bottom 10% of TJ students attend the same colleges as the top 10% of the base high school students.

This year top 10% of TJ are attending mediocre schools, my DC is one of them and so are many of her peers.

My DC is one of them too.

Precisely how are you defining the top 10% of TJ and precisely how are you defining mediocre schools?

DC has >4.6GPA, international/national/state awards in FPS, debate, hackathon, etc to name a few with 2 officer positions in school clubs and volunteering. And is going to a T50 school. I am pretty sure with this stats, kids went to a T10 or atleast T20 before.

DP. Used to be employed at a top-25 school where my office regularly interfaced with admissions. Two mistakes that high-end students make all of the time in the admissions process:

1) Especially with the prevalence of the Common App, they don't do enough to convince the school that they'll accept the offer if given. This is important because parents are obsessed with rankings, and therefore more and more admissions offices are obsessed with rankings (see the recent scandal at Columbia). Admissions offices want two numbers to be optimized - their admit rate (which needs to be low, and supported by a higher number of applications) and their yield rate (which needs to be high, meaning that a high percentage of students offered end up matriculating). This is the biggest reason why students who appear exceptional like yours do not get admitted to schools that they seemingly should coast into based purely on stats - it doesn't help admissions offices in any way to extend an offer to a student who they think will turn it down.

2) They don't do enough to explain to the school how they will contribute to the overall academic environment once they're there. Universities don't get very much (beyond a tuition check) out of a student who is simply going to show up on campus, excel in their schoolwork, and then take their degree off to the private sector never to be heard from again. There are no end of students who, believe it or not, have very similar profiles to your student. Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ - your assessment that they're in the top 10% is probably generous because you're placing too much weight on the GPA. Admissions officers love activities that show a student's desire to be a part of and contribute to something bigger than themselves; this is why activities like FPS, debate, hackathon, individual sports like golf or tennis or wrestling, and other such activities aren't looked upon as strongly as tutoring, team sports, performing arts, and service organizations.

In the end, most elite schools would rather graduate a student who was deeply engaged in campus activities than a 4.0 kid who did nothing but study - because the deeply engaged kid is more likely to donate and contribute in other ways to the school down the road. College is a business, and they behave as such.

"Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ " ==> this is definitely NOT true. sure, there are more than a handful, but definitely not a ton from TJ. Volunteering involved tutoring & being a part of a service org. DC was genuine in essays and didn't embellish or extrapolate anything in them.

Our school alone, in a normal year, would have received something like 30-40 applications from TJ alone (amongst many others) that looked very much like what you described above. That's a ton from an admissions office perspective, given that most other schools would be lucky to have two.

By the way, this problem isn't solely related to TJ students. As a whole, most families have no idea what college admissions officers are looking for - and part of that is because they're very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school. Colleges don't need hundreds of students in a class who all have similar resumes and profiles.

My DC didn't get in, so you are trying to substantiate the outcome. Some of my DC's friends with similar profiles got in while some others didn't just like my DC. The reality is we don't know why one got in and the other with a similar profile didn't because at the end, it is all subjective. "different backgrounds and with different interests" are NOT the only things in consideration. On top of all these, the schools have not increased their sizes to match the growing demand.

Of course it's subjective. Job applications are subjective, choosing a mate is subjective - that's life.

The college admissions process MUST remain subjective so that colleges can continue to make decisions about which students are the right fit for the campus that they want to have. Objectivity in any selection process leads to homogeneity in the selected body - witness TJ for essentially its entire previous history, including, obviously, the time during which it was far too white.

Then lets just stop with saying the admissions process is subjective. Let's not glorify by saying "very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school." This is just BS. Not all accepted students are intellectually curious or gifted or share genuine deep enthusiasm for the school.

...Subjectivity and intent are not mutually exclusive. People get paid extremely well for their skill in identifying talent, and the only reason that it's a valued skill is subjectivity. If evaluating talent were objective, a computer could do it.

Subjectivity by definition is open to abuse. Human nature is to gravitate one way or the other based on your biases. Else we would not have fair housing laws, for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious to know why folks are so mad at the new process:

- Min GPA requirement
- Math or Science Problem Essay
- Essay about skills/goals
- Pick the top 1-2 % from each school


Doesnt seem so different from a college application?

Harvard would look at experience factors also.

There is the small matter of teacher recommendations that colleges look at.

And Harvard is no gold standard - the Supreme Court will have a say soon.

And Harvard arrived at the “experience factors” because too many Jewish kids were making it on objective criteria. Yes there is your parallel with Harvard.

This was true a century ago but has not been for at least the past fifty years.

It's funny that you say that Harvard is no gold standard but that's still the school that every parent in your community wants the bumper sticker of. Sour grapes, I suppose.

Ironically one of the things that makes it great is its diverse student body.

BINGO. And it is rapidly becoming one of the great things about TJ.

“BINGO” - Great in the spirit of Make America Great Again. Congratulations

Make America Great Again exists in contradistinction to the forces seeking to desegregate TJ. MAGA wants to re-segregate TJ.

Foot in the mouth much! Did not know desegregation was a goal of reform. Such racism.

It's this twisted idea diversity is racist. Similarly, I guess one could argue the civil war was racist against the south since it was against policies that benefited the wealthy at the expense of other groups, but this is just crazy talk.

It's a bit crazy that leveling the playing field to allow more URM to participate is racist in the view of some.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious to know why folks are so mad at the new process:

- Min GPA requirement
- Math or Science Problem Essay
- Essay about skills/goals
- Pick the top 1-2 % from each school


Doesnt seem so different from a college application?

Harvard would look at experience factors also.

There is the small matter of teacher recommendations that colleges look at.

And Harvard is no gold standard - the Supreme Court will have a say soon.

And Harvard arrived at the “experience factors” because too many Jewish kids were making it on objective criteria. Yes there is your parallel with Harvard.

This was true a century ago but has not been for at least the past fifty years.

It's funny that you say that Harvard is no gold standard but that's still the school that every parent in your community wants the bumper sticker of. Sour grapes, I suppose.

Ironically one of the things that makes it great is its diverse student body.

BINGO. And it is rapidly becoming one of the great things about TJ.

“BINGO” - Great in the spirit of Make America Great Again. Congratulations

Make America Great Again exists in contradistinction to the forces seeking to desegregate TJ. MAGA wants to re-segregate TJ.

Foot in the mouth much! Did not know desegregation was a goal of reform. Such racism.

It's this twisted idea diversity is racist. Similarly, I guess one could argue the civil war was racist against the south since it was against policies that benefited the wealthy at the expense of other groups, but this is just crazy talk.

It's a bit crazy that leveling the playing field to allow more URM to participate is racist in the view of some.

It is absolutely insane that labelling an entire community as cheaters and segregators is not racist in the view of some.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious to know why folks are so mad at the new process:

- Min GPA requirement
- Math or Science Problem Essay
- Essay about skills/goals
- Pick the top 1-2 % from each school


Doesnt seem so different from a college application?

Harvard would look at experience factors also.

There is the small matter of teacher recommendations that colleges look at.

And Harvard is no gold standard - the Supreme Court will have a say soon.

And Harvard arrived at the “experience factors” because too many Jewish kids were making it on objective criteria. Yes there is your parallel with Harvard.

This was true a century ago but has not been for at least the past fifty years.

It's funny that you say that Harvard is no gold standard but that's still the school that every parent in your community wants the bumper sticker of. Sour grapes, I suppose.

Ironically one of the things that makes it great is its diverse student body.

BINGO. And it is rapidly becoming one of the great things about TJ.

“BINGO” - Great in the spirit of Make America Great Again. Congratulations

Make America Great Again exists in contradistinction to the forces seeking to desegregate TJ. MAGA wants to re-segregate TJ.

Foot in the mouth much! Did not know desegregation was a goal of reform. Such racism.

It's this twisted idea diversity is racist. Similarly, I guess one could argue the civil war was racist against the south since it was against policies that benefited the wealthy at the expense of other groups, but this is just crazy talk.

It's a bit crazy that leveling the playing field to allow more URM to participate is racist in the view of some.

It is absolutely insane that labelling an entire community as cheaters and segregators is not racist in the view of some.

I don't think anyone called anyone a cheater but the PP was on point. Ensuring that all children can participate in these programs, not just ones from affluent schools seems like a step in the right direction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Relax. Not the end of the world. Many TJ kids attending dame school as my non TJ senior. Except mine didn’t get the amount of stress Tj kids went through. Be a strong student at a base school. Tj is way over rated.

Depends on the base school. Let's not act like going to a mediocre base school provides the same peer group as TJ. And the bottom 10% of TJ students attend the same colleges as the top 10% of the base high school students.

This year top 10% of TJ are attending mediocre schools, my DC is one of them and so are many of her peers.

My DC is one of them too.

Precisely how are you defining the top 10% of TJ and precisely how are you defining mediocre schools?

DC has >4.6GPA, international/national/state awards in FPS, debate, hackathon, etc to name a few with 2 officer positions in school clubs and volunteering. And is going to a T50 school. I am pretty sure with this stats, kids went to a T10 or atleast T20 before.

DP. Used to be employed at a top-25 school where my office regularly interfaced with admissions. Two mistakes that high-end students make all of the time in the admissions process:

1) Especially with the prevalence of the Common App, they don't do enough to convince the school that they'll accept the offer if given. This is important because parents are obsessed with rankings, and therefore more and more admissions offices are obsessed with rankings (see the recent scandal at Columbia). Admissions offices want two numbers to be optimized - their admit rate (which needs to be low, and supported by a higher number of applications) and their yield rate (which needs to be high, meaning that a high percentage of students offered end up matriculating). This is the biggest reason why students who appear exceptional like yours do not get admitted to schools that they seemingly should coast into based purely on stats - it doesn't help admissions offices in any way to extend an offer to a student who they think will turn it down.

2) They don't do enough to explain to the school how they will contribute to the overall academic environment once they're there. Universities don't get very much (beyond a tuition check) out of a student who is simply going to show up on campus, excel in their schoolwork, and then take their degree off to the private sector never to be heard from again. There are no end of students who, believe it or not, have very similar profiles to your student. Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ - your assessment that they're in the top 10% is probably generous because you're placing too much weight on the GPA. Admissions officers love activities that show a student's desire to be a part of and contribute to something bigger than themselves; this is why activities like FPS, debate, hackathon, individual sports like golf or tennis or wrestling, and other such activities aren't looked upon as strongly as tutoring, team sports, performing arts, and service organizations.

In the end, most elite schools would rather graduate a student who was deeply engaged in campus activities than a 4.0 kid who did nothing but study - because the deeply engaged kid is more likely to donate and contribute in other ways to the school down the road. College is a business, and they behave as such.

"Hell, there are a ton of them just coming from TJ " ==> this is definitely NOT true. sure, there are more than a handful, but definitely not a ton from TJ. Volunteering involved tutoring & being a part of a service org. DC was genuine in essays and didn't embellish or extrapolate anything in them.

Our school alone, in a normal year, would have received something like 30-40 applications from TJ alone (amongst many others) that looked very much like what you described above. That's a ton from an admissions office perspective, given that most other schools would be lucky to have two.

By the way, this problem isn't solely related to TJ students. As a whole, most families have no idea what college admissions officers are looking for - and part of that is because they're very carefully trying to construct a class that brings students from different backgrounds and with different interests together who all share the goal of deep enthusiasm for the school. Colleges don't need hundreds of students in a class who all have similar resumes and profiles.

I wish I could understand how the AOs could figure out deep enthusiasm for the school from the applicant's short essay(s) that address a specific question.

It's a good thing that you can't, because then folks would be able to fake it. Curie would teach classes in it and charge thousands.

Wealthy people already can and do fake it using expensive college consultants who know precisely the best way to present a child. PP’s child was probably leapfrogged by less talented kids who had better college consultants.

Our TJ student was no less talented than the PP’s child (e.g., captain of the two school clubs, not just an officer), and we hired a college consultant to help the student present themselves. It’s not sufficient to manufacture a great product, you also need to advertise and sell it.

Which college did your kid get into?

T10

Do you think the college consultant really helped? That if not for the consultant, your DC wouldn't have gotten into a T10?

The consultant truly helped to brainstorm the essay topics. DC participated in so many activities, clubs, charities, had a part-time job for 3 years, co-authored a textbook - that it was difficult to decide what to choose in response to various essay topics, since there was so much they could write about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious to know why folks are so mad at the new process:

- Min GPA requirement
- Math or Science Problem Essay
- Essay about skills/goals
- Pick the top 1-2 % from each school


Doesnt seem so different from a college application?

Harvard would look at experience factors also.

There is the small matter of teacher recommendations that colleges look at.

And Harvard is no gold standard - the Supreme Court will have a say soon.

And Harvard arrived at the “experience factors” because too many Jewish kids were making it on objective criteria. Yes there is your parallel with Harvard.

This was true a century ago but has not been for at least the past fifty years.

It's funny that you say that Harvard is no gold standard but that's still the school that every parent in your community wants the bumper sticker of. Sour grapes, I suppose.

Ironically one of the things that makes it great is its diverse student body.

BINGO. And it is rapidly becoming one of the great things about TJ.

“BINGO” - Great in the spirit of Make America Great Again. Congratulations

Make America Great Again exists in contradistinction to the forces seeking to desegregate TJ. MAGA wants to re-segregate TJ.

Foot in the mouth much! Did not know desegregation was a goal of reform. Such racism.

It's this twisted idea diversity is racist. Similarly, I guess one could argue the civil war was racist against the south since it was against policies that benefited the wealthy at the expense of other groups, but this is just crazy talk.

It's a bit crazy that leveling the playing field to allow more URM to participate is racist in the view of some.

It is absolutely insane that labelling an entire community as cheaters and segregators is not racist in the view of some.

No one is doing that. Pointing out that a school is segregated (which TJ inarguably was - fewer than 1% of students in most previous classes were economically disadvantaged) does not inherently ascribe intent to any actor, and pointing out that there are cheaters does not ascribe that characteristic to an entire race.

I'll give you credit - your logical fallacy seems to work on some but my hope is that a community interested in TJ would be substantially more educated than to fall for your sophistry.