Waitlisted at TJ - now what?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The reformed TJ admission is just a plan to ensure that all schools are left behind in terms of facilities, courses available etc.

How so? If that's the plan, it will fail miserably.

One suspects the geniuses in FCPS thought the new process would somehow incentivize people to move their kids to "under-represented" middle schools and, therefore, start to level the playing field.

Instead, it will reduce the appeal of TJ and enhance the appeal of the pyramids that had been sending the most kids to TJ previously, especially Langley, McLean, Chantilly, and Oakton.

And then the parents at those schools will demand more STEM courses for their kids, and if FCPS doesn't oblige the School Board members who are already on very shaky ground in their districts will get kicked out of office.

This is happening at McLean big time. They are adding two more post-AP CS classes. These classes are essentially the same classes taught at TJ.

Its a total waste of money! I don’t know why they don’t just let the kids drive/bus over to TJ during the “free block” and take the class. Or teach it online. Hiring a teacher for two classes doesn’t make sense.

That is a big waste of money. Dual enrollment exists for a reason. McLean students, or any student, who finds themselves seeking such courses should look into Northern Virginia Community College or GMU dual enrollment to take those those classes. There's no reason for FCPS to cater to such small groups of students scattered across the county for post-K12 material.

Exactly. To all the abolish-TJ advocators, think about how much more taxpayer money it will cost FCPS to create these specialized courses at multiple high schools, rather than efficiently concentrating them into one school for the exceptionally gifted.

Well, there's a difference between those who are truly exceptionally gifted and those who are pushed to acceleration. I suspect a fair amount of students fall into the latter thanks to their parents. Very few pre-teens would ask out of the blue to take advanced math during their summers to get 2-3 years ahead. If they are begging for advanced math in ES, then maybe you might have the next Terence Tao in your hands. So I'm arguing that FCPS need not cater to students that were rather needlessly accelerated to get to multivar calculus and DE by 12th grade. Leave that to parents to deal with and take advantage of concurrent dual enrollment. TJ shouldn't have to absorb all of it either.

The TJ catchment area would include around 30,000 kids per grade level. While the top kids may not be Terrence Tao, there are 50 or so kids in each grade level who are "exceptionally gifted" enough to need more than is available at the local high school. These kids ought to get into TJ, but since many aren't doing so in the current system, the schools should try to provide something for them. If nothing else, a dual enrollment virtual academy class could cover the kids who take Calc BC in 9th or 10th grade but don't get into TJ.

FCPS doesn't allow that many kids to take Algebra in 6th or earlier. Most of the kids who take Calc in 10th and run out of math classes in 12th got there by taking summer Geometry. The easiest way to serve the needs of the exceptionally gifted but also cut back on the over-acceleration is to continue allowing the outliers to take Algebra early, but eliminate the option to jump ahead through summer Geometry.

I wouldn't be so sure that the current system is missing out on those top 50 type kids. For one thing, plenty of the kids in the Class of 2025 were comparable to those absolute best-of-the-best that have historically existed at TJ, and for another, a staggering number of families in this area don't really have a good idea of what constitutes "best of the best".

I would. They missed several USJMO qualifiers as well as kids with very high AMC10 scores in the rising 10th grade class. Kids at that level cannot have their needs met in the local high school and absolutely would be among those top 50 kids.

...not necessarily. They may be among the most advanced math students in the area but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be strong contributors at TJ. There are no end of kids who have been exceptional math students entering TJ who have made essentially zero impact within the school during their four years. It's a common error that outside observers make - that TJ either has captured in the past or should capture in the future all of the students who are sufficiently advanced in math to go beyond what is offered at their local high school.

And there are students every single year who are turned away from TJ despite being extremely advanced in math. Every high school in FCPS has a plan for handling those students because they've had to forever.

You are an idiot the school is supposed to be for the top STEM students not whatever crap you are spewing about on here

And it IS for the TOP STEM students. Even if some random kid is good at STEM they aren't top at least not by any objective measure or they'd already be at TJ. The top kids at their MS. The top kid on some national contest. They are already there.

Nope kids taking algebra 1 in 8th aren't, geographic quotas aren't oh and additionally center schools kids are double penalized. . Almost all admissions should be aap centers who have the most talented and advanced stem kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reformed TJ admission is just a plan to ensure that all schools are left behind in terms of facilities, courses available etc.

How so? If that's the plan, it will fail miserably.

One suspects the geniuses in FCPS thought the new process would somehow incentivize people to move their kids to "under-represented" middle schools and, therefore, start to level the playing field.

Instead, it will reduce the appeal of TJ and enhance the appeal of the pyramids that had been sending the most kids to TJ previously, especially Langley, McLean, Chantilly, and Oakton.

And then the parents at those schools will demand more STEM courses for their kids, and if FCPS doesn't oblige the School Board members who are already on very shaky ground in their districts will get kicked out of office.

This is happening at McLean big time. They are adding two more post-AP CS classes. These classes are essentially the same classes taught at TJ.

Its a total waste of money! I don’t know why they don’t just let the kids drive/bus over to TJ during the “free block” and take the class. Or teach it online. Hiring a teacher for two classes doesn’t make sense.

That is a big waste of money. Dual enrollment exists for a reason. McLean students, or any student, who finds themselves seeking such courses should look into Northern Virginia Community College or GMU dual enrollment to take those those classes. There's no reason for FCPS to cater to such small groups of students scattered across the county for post-K12 material.

Exactly. To all the abolish-TJ advocators, think about how much more taxpayer money it will cost FCPS to create these specialized courses at multiple high schools, rather than efficiently concentrating them into one school for the exceptionally gifted.

Well, there's a difference between those who are truly exceptionally gifted and those who are pushed to acceleration. I suspect a fair amount of students fall into the latter thanks to their parents. Very few pre-teens would ask out of the blue to take advanced math during their summers to get 2-3 years ahead. If they are begging for advanced math in ES, then maybe you might have the next Terence Tao in your hands. So I'm arguing that FCPS need not cater to students that were rather needlessly accelerated to get to multivar calculus and DE by 12th grade. Leave that to parents to deal with and take advantage of concurrent dual enrollment. TJ shouldn't have to absorb all of it either.

The TJ catchment area would include around 30,000 kids per grade level. While the top kids may not be Terrence Tao, there are 50 or so kids in each grade level who are "exceptionally gifted" enough to need more than is available at the local high school. These kids ought to get into TJ, but since many aren't doing so in the current system, the schools should try to provide something for them. If nothing else, a dual enrollment virtual academy class could cover the kids who take Calc BC in 9th or 10th grade but don't get into TJ.

FCPS doesn't allow that many kids to take Algebra in 6th or earlier. Most of the kids who take Calc in 10th and run out of math classes in 12th got there by taking summer Geometry. The easiest way to serve the needs of the exceptionally gifted but also cut back on the over-acceleration is to continue allowing the outliers to take Algebra early, but eliminate the option to jump ahead through summer Geometry.

I wouldn't be so sure that the current system is missing out on those top 50 type kids. For one thing, plenty of the kids in the Class of 2025 were comparable to those absolute best-of-the-best that have historically existed at TJ, and for another, a staggering number of families in this area don't really have a good idea of what constitutes "best of the best".

I would. They missed several USJMO qualifiers as well as kids with very high AMC10 scores in the rising 10th grade class. Kids at that level cannot have their needs met in the local high school and absolutely would be among those top 50 kids.

...not necessarily. They may be among the most advanced math students in the area but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be strong contributors at TJ. There are no end of kids who have been exceptional math students entering TJ who have made essentially zero impact within the school during their four years. It's a common error that outside observers make - that TJ either has captured in the past or should capture in the future all of the students who are sufficiently advanced in math to go beyond what is offered at their local high school.

And there are students every single year who are turned away from TJ despite being extremely advanced in math. Every high school in FCPS has a plan for handling those students because they've had to forever.

You are an idiot the school is supposed to be for the top STEM students not whatever crap you are spewing about on here

And it IS for the TOP STEM students. Even if some random kid is good at STEM they aren't top at least not by any objective measure or they'd already be at TJ. The top kids at their MS. The top kid on some national contest. They are already there.

Nope kids taking algebra 1 in 8th aren't, geographic quotas aren't oh and additionally center schools kids are double penalized. . Almost all admissions should be aap centers who have the most talented and advanced stem kids

AAP centers have many of the most talented students, sure.

They do not have ALL of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Why would you actively discourage if your kid wants to do it? you actually think you have more experience than a kid. that's so wrong.

I hope this is sarcasm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Agree many enjoyed the ease with which they could get their children into these programs simply by spending a few grand on prep classes, but now it's harder because they have to compete against all schools, not just the affluent ones.

No, the objection is they are competing with just the affluent ones while the other schools are given automatic spots for lower scoring students.

That's odd when I saw the data, the lion's share of spots are still going to the wealthiest schools.

They are since they didn't adopt Loudoun's approach of putting a maximum quota per school. Then you are competing entirely against students at your own school.
Even without this, the minimum quota for schools removes spots which students at wealthier schools could take, and gives them to lower scoring students.
In many cases, much lower scoring because the top students at that school are going to AAP elsewhere and have to compete with students at that school for a spot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
...not necessarily. They may be among the most advanced math students in the area but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be strong contributors at TJ. There are no end of kids who have been exceptional math students entering TJ who have made essentially zero impact within the school during their four years.

Why is that a criterion? The school should be serving the students, not the other way around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reformed TJ admission is just a plan to ensure that all schools are left behind in terms of facilities, courses available etc.

How so? If that's the plan, it will fail miserably.

One suspects the geniuses in FCPS thought the new process would somehow incentivize people to move their kids to "under-represented" middle schools and, therefore, start to level the playing field.

Instead, it will reduce the appeal of TJ and enhance the appeal of the pyramids that had been sending the most kids to TJ previously, especially Langley, McLean, Chantilly, and Oakton.

And then the parents at those schools will demand more STEM courses for their kids, and if FCPS doesn't oblige the School Board members who are already on very shaky ground in their districts will get kicked out of office.

This is happening at McLean big time. They are adding two more post-AP CS classes. These classes are essentially the same classes taught at TJ.

Its a total waste of money! I don’t know why they don’t just let the kids drive/bus over to TJ during the “free block” and take the class. Or teach it online. Hiring a teacher for two classes doesn’t make sense.

That is a big waste of money. Dual enrollment exists for a reason. McLean students, or any student, who finds themselves seeking such courses should look into Northern Virginia Community College or GMU dual enrollment to take those those classes. There's no reason for FCPS to cater to such small groups of students scattered across the county for post-K12 material.

Exactly. To all the abolish-TJ advocators, think about how much more taxpayer money it will cost FCPS to create these specialized courses at multiple high schools, rather than efficiently concentrating them into one school for the exceptionally gifted.

Well, there's a difference between those who are truly exceptionally gifted and those who are pushed to acceleration. I suspect a fair amount of students fall into the latter thanks to their parents. Very few pre-teens would ask out of the blue to take advanced math during their summers to get 2-3 years ahead. If they are begging for advanced math in ES, then maybe you might have the next Terence Tao in your hands. So I'm arguing that FCPS need not cater to students that were rather needlessly accelerated to get to multivar calculus and DE by 12th grade. Leave that to parents to deal with and take advantage of concurrent dual enrollment. TJ shouldn't have to absorb all of it either.

Why do you NOT push your kids? If you have no interest in math and your kid’s math, why would you NOT leave the TJ seats alone to those who love STEM and deserve them after years of hard work? Where were you during the nine school years when we checked our kids homework, looked for supplements, solved problem with them, helped them set goals…

I’m so tired of your stupid “truly exceptional gifted”. Losers never understands that they never made it because they are LAZY and dumb. You are now “advocates” now since you were lazy with your next generation and never got involved in their well/being!

You can support your kids interests without pushing them. My kid asks to do supplemental math so we do math. He was not interested in math camp this summer but was interested in robotics and coding and 3D printing so he is going to camp for those things. I would not enroll him in those programs without his interest.

If he does not continue to do the supplemental math and the STEM type camps but he met the requirements for TJ and was willing to fill out the application and go through those steps and apply for a spot, more power to him. He met the requirements and he is capable, so why shouldn't he apply for a spot? Because he didn't know in 5th grade that he wanted to go to TJ so he didn't do extra math in 5th grade? Or he didn't attend all STEM camps?

I will actively discourage taking math classes during summer school. I don't think that you can cover an entire school years math in a month in an effective fashion.

Why would you actively discourage if your kid wants to do it? you actually think you have more experience than a kid. that's so wrong.

Because math builds on itself and I don't think that you can adequately cover a years worth of math in a month. I would rather he learn the material solidly then rush through the material to get to the next class.

Because I don't want to see him burn out and I have a better understanding of how challenging it is to cram material, he doesn't.

Because he will be just fine taking a higher level math classes in college and waiting a year.

Is it one month or two?
In Loudoun classes are an hour and a half every other day. Summer class is daily for more time, so it is easy to get the same number of hours over two months.

[Anonymous]

What is happening with the waitlist? And idea?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Agree many enjoyed the ease with which they could get their children into these programs simply by spending a few grand on prep classes, but now it's harder because they have to compete against all schools, not just the affluent ones.

No, the objection is they are competing with just the affluent ones while the other schools are given automatic spots for lower scoring students.

That's odd when I saw the data, the lion's share of spots are still going to the wealthiest schools.

They are since they didn't adopt Loudoun's approach of putting a maximum quota per school. Then you are competing entirely against students at your own school.
Even without this, the minimum quota for schools removes spots which students at wealthier schools could take, and gives them to lower scoring students.
In many cases, much lower scoring because the top students at that school are going to AAP elsewhere and have to compete with students at that school for a spot.

There's no sense in which the students currently being admitted are "lower-scoring". There isn't an exam where they're being compared with one another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
...not necessarily. They may be among the most advanced math students in the area but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be strong contributors at TJ. There are no end of kids who have been exceptional math students entering TJ who have made essentially zero impact within the school during their four years.

Why is that a criterion? The school should be serving the students, not the other way around.

The school does serve the students by creating a positive and outstanding learning environment. The county serves that purpose by admitting students who are likely to engage with the process of creating such an environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
...not necessarily. They may be among the most advanced math students in the area but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be strong contributors at TJ. There are no end of kids who have been exceptional math students entering TJ who have made essentially zero impact within the school during their four years.

Why is that a criterion? The school should be serving the students, not the other way around.

The school does serve the students by creating a positive and outstanding learning environment. The county serves that purpose by admitting students who are likely to engage with the process of creating such an environment.

+1000. It doesn't serve the students to put them in an environment where everyone else is similar to them, either from a didactic perspective or, certainly, from a college admissions perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why would you actively discourage if your kid wants to do it? you actually think you have more experience than a kid. that's so wrong.

I hope this is sarcasm.

Of course, it is. Also wanted to expose some hypocrisy. From the responses, seems to have worked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why would you actively discourage if your kid wants to do it? you actually think you have more experience than a kid. that's so wrong.

I hope this is sarcasm.

Of course, it is. Also wanted to expose some hypocrisy. From the responses, seems to have worked.

when you do it, it is not listening to your kids. When I do it, it is me thinking in the kid's best interest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Agree many enjoyed the ease with which they could get their children into these programs simply by spending a few grand on prep classes, but now it's harder because they have to compete against all schools, not just the affluent ones.

No, the objection is they are competing with just the affluent ones while the other schools are given automatic spots for lower scoring students.

That's odd when I saw the data, the lion's share of spots are still going to the wealthiest schools.

They are since they didn't adopt Loudoun's approach of putting a maximum quota per school. Then you are competing entirely against students at your own school.
Even without this, the minimum quota for schools removes spots which students at wealthier schools could take, and gives them to lower scoring students.
In many cases, much lower scoring because the top students at that school are going to AAP elsewhere and have to compete with students at that school for a spot.

There's no sense in which the students currently being admitted are "lower-scoring". There isn't an exam where they're being compared with one another.

They are assigning a score to each student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Agree many enjoyed the ease with which they could get their children into these programs simply by spending a few grand on prep classes, but now it's harder because they have to compete against all schools, not just the affluent ones.

No, the objection is they are competing with just the affluent ones while the other schools are given automatic spots for lower scoring students.

That's odd when I saw the data, the lion's share of spots are still going to the wealthiest schools.

They are since they didn't adopt Loudoun's approach of putting a maximum quota per school. Then you are competing entirely against students at your own school.
Even without this, the minimum quota for schools removes spots which students at wealthier schools could take, and gives them to lower scoring students.
In many cases, much lower scoring because the top students at that school are going to AAP elsewhere and have to compete with students at that school for a spot.

There's no sense in which the students currently being admitted are "lower-scoring". There isn't an exam where they're being compared with one another.

They are assigning a score to each student.

Sure - so it's more appropriate in this context to refer to them as "lower-scored" or perhaps "lower-rated". "Lower-scoring" implies that there is some sort of objective metric at which the students selected are underperforming compared to students who aren't selected - it assigns agency to the student rather than to the admissions office.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this error was unintentional.

What information do you have to confirm that offers were made to students who were rated lower than students who were not offered - apart from assumptions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sure - so it's more appropriate in this context to refer to them as "lower-scored" or perhaps "lower-rated". "Lower-scoring" implies that there is some sort of objective metric at which the students selected are underperforming compared to students who aren't selected - it assigns agency to the student rather than to the admissions office.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this error was unintentional.

What information do you have to confirm that offers were made to students who were rated lower than students who were not offered - apart from assumptions?

I used lower scoring because the admissions process is used every year, and every year there will be lower scoring students accepted.
Yes it is an assumption that the per school quota elevates lower scoring(or lower rated) students.