Board of Veterans Appeals (Attorney Advisor)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently interviewed for this position and took a subsequent writing test. If anyone is in a similar position, have you heard back either way about an offer?

In addition, to those that currently hold this position, could you describe a typical day? Finally, on other websites I've seen a lot of negativity so please share your experience, level of job satisfaction, and anything else you would find helpful for someone interested in this position. Thank you in advance!

PP: what does the writing test entail? And can you give specifics about the interview? Panel?

I’m not the poster, but I can answer your questions. The writing test is a basic literacy exam to test your ability to read and write complete sentences. It’s a very simple and easy test that most high schoolers can pass. No knowledge of the law is required. Unfortunately, the Board had to implement this test because during the mass hiring sprees in 2016, 2017, and 2018, the Board hired dozens of attorneys (out of 700 new hires) who were extremely poor writers. The writing test weeds out the poor writers and saves management the trouble of having to fire them.

As for the interview, a panel of three people (judges and managers) interviews each candidate. The interview is highly structured and the interviewers will ask you behavioral type questions. Essentially, they want to know whether you are the type of person who will do exactly what your judge tells you to do without hesitation or question. If you demonstrate any sort of independence, your chances of getting the job diminish greatly.

I'm not even sure the interview serves any purpose. It is a ten minute rapid fire question session where they do not ask you anything substantive and they really do not care to hear your answers. it is the most bizarre interview i've ever been on. They do not care about your knowledge of the law or whether you actually understand the job. Nor are they trying to figure out whether you're a good fit for the job. It is almost like someone googled "questions to ask at an interview" and found an HR website with a list of ten general questions to ask during an interview. Then they sit there and ask the questions and you answer them in short answers with no real elaboration. There is no real conversation, back and forth, or attempt to get to know you as there is in most interviews for professional jobs.

The sole purpose of the interview is to weed out people who have an independent side. For example, one of the interview questions is, "What would you do if you disagree with your judge?" If a candidate responds by stating, "I will try to advance my position," he or she will be automatically disqualified. The proper answer is, "I will do what my judge tells me to do."

Lol. I was told on my first day that we would be fired if we argued with our judge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently interviewed for this position and took a subsequent writing test. If anyone is in a similar position, have you heard back either way about an offer?

In addition, to those that currently hold this position, could you describe a typical day? Finally, on other websites I've seen a lot of negativity so please share your experience, level of job satisfaction, and anything else you would find helpful for someone interested in this position. Thank you in advance!

PP: what does the writing test entail? And can you give specifics about the interview? Panel?

I’m not the poster, but I can answer your questions. The writing test is a basic literacy exam to test your ability to read and write complete sentences. It’s a very simple and easy test that most high schoolers can pass. No knowledge of the law is required. Unfortunately, the Board had to implement this test because during the mass hiring sprees in 2016, 2017, and 2018, the Board hired dozens of attorneys (out of 700 new hires) who were extremely poor writers. The writing test weeds out the poor writers and saves management the trouble of having to fire them.

As for the interview, a panel of three people (judges and managers) interviews each candidate. The interview is highly structured and the interviewers will ask you behavioral type questions. Essentially, they want to know whether you are the type of person who will do exactly what your judge tells you to do without hesitation or question. If you demonstrate any sort of independence, your chances of getting the job diminish greatly.

I'm not even sure the interview serves any purpose. It is a ten minute rapid fire question session where they do not ask you anything substantive and they really do not care to hear your answers. it is the most bizarre interview i've ever been on. They do not care about your knowledge of the law or whether you actually understand the job. Nor are they trying to figure out whether you're a good fit for the job. It is almost like someone googled "questions to ask at an interview" and found an HR website with a list of ten general questions to ask during an interview. Then they sit there and ask the questions and you answer them in short answers with no real elaboration. There is no real conversation, back and forth, or attempt to get to know you as there is in most interviews for professional jobs.

Thank you! Sounds like the hardest part is clearing the usajobs resume filtering system!

Incorrect. The hardest part is surviving the job.

I agree that the hardest part is surviving the job, not just during the probationary/trial period, but every single year thereafter. Numerous GS-14 attorneys with 10 or more years of experience have been forced to resign in lieu of termination because they missed the quota by one or two cases (until very recently, VA was not required to offer PIPs to anyone prior to termination). There is simply no job security at the Board.

[Anonymous]

What is the expectation for probationary employees? Are their work performance monitored more closely as opposed to attorneys who are not on probation? Is their production monitored weekly/biweekly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is the expectation for probationary employees? Are their work performance monitored more closely as opposed to attorneys who are not on probation? Is their production monitored weekly/biweekly?

Your question has already been asked and answered on page 25 of this thread. I’ve reposted the relevant post below:

During your first six months at the Board, you won't be on production. However, when that time ends, you will have the same quota as everyone else regardless of grade level or years at the Board. I left the Board in FY2019, and back then the quota was 3.25 signed decisions a week (169 signed decisions a year) - by signed, I mean that only decisions that your judge approves will count. Decisions that you submit, but your judge does not sign, do not count. In terms of raw numbers, you will need to submit approximately four to five draft decisions every week in order to get 3.25 signed decisions a week - if you submit less than four or five decisions a week, you are taking a huge risk of not getting 3.25 signed decisions/week, as the judges at the Board routinely return drafts for revision. The average case file has between 200 to 1000 documents, with each document containing anywhere from 1 to 1,000+ pages. Each and every decision that you submit will be graded by your judge on a scale of 1 to 5 (highest score). Any score less than 3 is unacceptable and repeatedly receiving low scores is grounds for termination.

You will need to hit the ground running when you start production as the Board routinely fires attorneys at the 10 month mark. This means that you have less than four months after you begin production to demonstrate your competence or you will be fired/forced to resign (the decision to fire someone is initially made around the seven or eight month mark, while the actual firing occurs at the 10 month mark) .

The Board is a tough place to work at and far from cushy. That's why I left my BVA job to go work at another agency that also offers full time telework.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the expectation for probationary employees? Are their work performance monitored more closely as opposed to attorneys who are not on probation? Is their production monitored weekly/biweekly?

Your question has already been asked and answered on page 25 of this thread. I’ve reposted the relevant post below:

During your first six months at the Board, you won't be on production. However, when that time ends, you will have the same quota as everyone else regardless of grade level or years at the Board. I left the Board in FY2019, and back then the quota was 3.25 signed decisions a week (169 signed decisions a year) - by signed, I mean that only decisions that your judge approves will count. Decisions that you submit, but your judge does not sign, do not count. In terms of raw numbers, you will need to submit approximately four to five draft decisions every week in order to get 3.25 signed decisions a week - if you submit less than four or five decisions a week, you are taking a huge risk of not getting 3.25 signed decisions/week, as the judges at the Board routinely return drafts for revision. The average case file has between 200 to 1000 documents, with each document containing anywhere from 1 to 1,000+ pages. Each and every decision that you submit will be graded by your judge on a scale of 1 to 5 (highest score). Any score less than 3 is unacceptable and repeatedly receiving low scores is grounds for termination.

You will need to hit the ground running when you start production as the Board routinely fires attorneys at the 10 month mark. This means that you have less than four months after you begin production to demonstrate your competence or you will be fired/forced to resign (the decision to fire someone is initially made around the seven or eight month mark, while the actual firing occurs at the 10 month mark) .

The Board is a tough place to work at and far from cushy. That's why I left my BVA job to go work at another agency that also offers full time telework.

Important to note here that just because you're not on production doesn't mean they can't (or won't) fire you. If they don't like you they can fire you. If they don't like your work they can fire you. If they don't think you will be able to make it once you're on production, you guessed it, they can fire you. You have essentially no protections as a probationary employee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the expectation for probationary employees? Are their work performance monitored more closely as opposed to attorneys who are not on probation? Is their production monitored weekly/biweekly?

Your question has already been asked and answered on page 25 of this thread. I’ve reposted the relevant post below:

During your first six months at the Board, you won't be on production. However, when that time ends, you will have the same quota as everyone else regardless of grade level or years at the Board. I left the Board in FY2019, and back then the quota was 3.25 signed decisions a week (169 signed decisions a year) - by signed, I mean that only decisions that your judge approves will count. Decisions that you submit, but your judge does not sign, do not count. In terms of raw numbers, you will need to submit approximately four to five draft decisions every week in order to get 3.25 signed decisions a week - if you submit less than four or five decisions a week, you are taking a huge risk of not getting 3.25 signed decisions/week, as the judges at the Board routinely return drafts for revision. The average case file has between 200 to 1000 documents, with each document containing anywhere from 1 to 1,000+ pages. Each and every decision that you submit will be graded by your judge on a scale of 1 to 5 (highest score). Any score less than 3 is unacceptable and repeatedly receiving low scores is grounds for termination.

You will need to hit the ground running when you start production as the Board routinely fires attorneys at the 10 month mark. This means that you have less than four months after you begin production to demonstrate your competence or you will be fired/forced to resign (the decision to fire someone is initially made around the seven or eight month mark, while the actual firing occurs at the 10 month mark) .

The Board is a tough place to work at and far from cushy. That's why I left my BVA job to go work at another agency that also offers full time telework.

Important to note here that just because you're not on production doesn't mean they can't (or won't) fire you. If they don't like you they can fire you. If they don't like your work they can fire you. If they don't think you will be able to make it once you're on production, you guessed it, they can fire you. You have essentially no protections as a probationary employee.

Very true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
As for the interview, a panel of three people (judges and managers) interviews each candidate. The interview is highly structured and the interviewers will ask you behavioral type questions.....

Also, the people on your interview panel may not be the people you actually work with or ever see again. I took the job because I had no other offers but got out as soon as I could. The interview for my current job had a panel of three people with whom I actually work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
As for the interview, a panel of three people (judges and managers) interviews each candidate. The interview is highly structured and the interviewers will ask you behavioral type questions.....

Also, the people on your interview panel may not be the people you actually work with or ever see again. I took the job because I had no other offers but got out as soon as I could. The interview for my current job had a panel of three people with whom I actually work.

It is very unlikely that you will ever see these people again, nor will they be relevant to your job at the Board unless you happen to be assigned to their team. I get the sense that it is just to make sure that you have a pulse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is the expectation for probationary employees? Are their work performance monitored more closely as opposed to attorneys who are not on probation? Is their production monitored weekly/biweekly?

"probationary" isn't the same as not on production.

In this position, it is "probationary" from the government's standpoint for the first two years.

"not on production" is generally the first six months where they evaluate your work and want you to produce as many decisions as possible, but they do not expect you to meet the quota. That period lasts six months.

everyone's production is tracked all the time. you may not hear about it directly, but it is tracked. constantly.

[Anonymous]

Reading these posts makes it seem like BVA is the hardest federal position for an atty. Anyone know if there any federal positions out there that are comparable or even harder than BVA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading these posts makes it seem like BVA is the hardest federal position for an atty. Anyone know if there any federal positions out there that are comparable or even harder than BVA?

That's a good question. In my opinion, the attorney position at BVA is by far the hardest federal position for an attorney. By hard, I don't mean intellectually demanding. Rather, the challenges at BVA relate to the extremely toxic work environment where managers are openly hostile to employees and actively try to destroy the careers of disfavored attorneys. I'm sure that BVA attorneys aren't the only attorneys who have toxic bosses. But, what sets BVA apart is the fact that the entire organization is very toxic (1000+ employees and managers) and has been for decades, from what I hear. Just take a look at the BVA attorney survey where nearly 400 attorneys expressed concerns about the toxic work environment. Some of them sound downright suicidal. That level of total organizational toxicity is rare.

Link to BVA attorney survey: https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track/?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A4dc55b1b-80ed-4b2c-9e0a-155be961d998&pageNum=1#pageNum=1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading these posts makes it seem like BVA is the hardest federal position for an atty. Anyone know if there any federal positions out there that are comparable or even harder than BVA?

It’s not a hard job. It’s a job filled with low skilled lawyers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading these posts makes it seem like BVA is the hardest federal position for an atty. Anyone know if there any federal positions out there that are comparable or even harder than BVA?

It’s not a hard job. It’s a job filled with low skilled lawyers

The hardest jobs are generally low skilled jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading these posts makes it seem like BVA is the hardest federal position for an atty. Anyone know if there any federal positions out there that are comparable or even harder than BVA?

It’s not a hard job. It’s a job filled with low skilled lawyers

This isn’t even close to true. There are a lot of very bright people there who struggle every day to make it. Yes there are some people there who weren’t top of their class, but to say it’s a job “filled with low skilled lawyers” is not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading these posts makes it seem like BVA is the hardest federal position for an atty. Anyone know if there any federal positions out there that are comparable or even harder than BVA?

Hard to say if its the hardest job. Its more like factory work than being a traditional lawyer. But factory work at a grueling pace with standards that are very hard to meet.