Petition: Later MCPS school start times

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

What accountability measures are in place or will be put in place to make sure we get the adolescent sleep increase you state is essential and will come from making this costly and burdensome shift?

If you are so concerned about the cost and burden, why are you adamant that we must make it MORE costly and MORE burdensome with “accountability measures”? Would you propose changing that the start time to be earlier if sleep metrics didn’t hit what ever targets you deem satisfactory?

The fact that I have to explain to you why we should measure if what we're claiming will happen, does happen, before we spend a large amount of human and financial resources actually says everything about you, your proposal and your integrity.

How could we possibly measure what happens BEFORE spending the human and financial resources? If you want to measure what actually happens, you cannot do that until you have already implemented the changes (and therefore spent the human and financial resources). Adding “accountability metrics” is simply adding MORE human and financial resources after the fact. I am curious what the ultimate point of such metrics would be? If it turned out to not have an impact would you then want to spend EVEN MORE human and financial resources to change everything back?

Please do explain because I legitimately don’t understand what you are proposing and how it would possibly be cost effective.

I didn't say we should measure before. I said the MEANS to measure need to be put in place before. And yes, if it does not in fact improve sleep, we should reverse course.

That's usually how things work. If you try something and it fails to accomplish what you hoped it would, you stop doing it. I guess that's breaking news to you.

And you have 99 questions for me but no answers to the questions that have been posed to you about:

- How the increased sleep you're claiming teens will get will happen with pushing start times back without a mechanism to ensure kids don't squander the extra 30 minutes
- How even if we believe the claims, we'll measure the impact of the change on teens' health and sleep and academic performance (these are the benefits YOUR side is claiming so you need to prove and validate them in order for people to feel justified in going through the inconvenience you're proposing)
- What threshold percentage wise of the teenage population we need to comply with getting more sleep to see the purported benefits you claim will come from pushing back start times

Answer these questions instead of asking me questions.

“we should measure if what we're claiming will happen, does happen, before we spend a large amount of human and financial resources”

That may very well be what you meant, but it’s not what you said.

And if we changed it and it wasn’t as effective as effective as hoped, then who gives a sh!t? (FYI this is what we call a rhetorical question. I’m not asking YOU a question.) That’s the new time table. You may not be aware, but the current start times are ARBITRARY. It’s not a question of “stopping” something - it’s reverting to the prior state which requires the same resources and effort a SECOND time. There would be no point… unless you are theorizing that later start times would be actively harmful versus merely ineffective.

As for your other questions, I have answered elsewhere in this thread but since you’re slow/obstinate…

I DO NOT CARE how many teens “squander” their extra time. I want ALL teens to have the OPTION to get adequate sleep with appropriate school start times, based on the existing science which indicates that teens’ natural circadian rhythm shifts later into the evening. The data is clear, and endlessly studying this because you and some other selfish adults want to throw a tantrum about it would be a waste of resources.

I DO believe that your main objection to this is the inconvenience it will somehow cause YOU. You do not care about the cost or effort a change would necessitate, and you have made it very clear you could not care less about what’s best for the kids.

Sorry you might have to spring for a babysitter for your younger kids!

So, basically, you want to cop out of parenting by making excuses and letting your kids do what they want and accommodate their poor behavior regardless of who else it impacts. Got it.

You just want to ignore science. Got it.

Science is a bunch of studies skewed to fit the authors beliefs. Science and medicine also say sports and other activities are good for kids. And, some kids work for their basic needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

What accountability measures are in place or will be put in place to make sure we get the adolescent sleep increase you state is essential and will come from making this costly and burdensome shift?

If you are so concerned about the cost and burden, why are you adamant that we must make it MORE costly and MORE burdensome with “accountability measures”? Would you propose changing that the start time to be earlier if sleep metrics didn’t hit what ever targets you deem satisfactory?

The fact that I have to explain to you why we should measure if what we're claiming will happen, does happen, before we spend a large amount of human and financial resources actually says everything about you, your proposal and your integrity.

How could we possibly measure what happens BEFORE spending the human and financial resources? If you want to measure what actually happens, you cannot do that until you have already implemented the changes (and therefore spent the human and financial resources). Adding “accountability metrics” is simply adding MORE human and financial resources after the fact. I am curious what the ultimate point of such metrics would be? If it turned out to not have an impact would you then want to spend EVEN MORE human and financial resources to change everything back?

Please do explain because I legitimately don’t understand what you are proposing and how it would possibly be cost effective.

I didn't say we should measure before. I said the MEANS to measure need to be put in place before. And yes, if it does not in fact improve sleep, we should reverse course.

That's usually how things work. If you try something and it fails to accomplish what you hoped it would, you stop doing it. I guess that's breaking news to you.

And you have 99 questions for me but no answers to the questions that have been posed to you about:

- How the increased sleep you're claiming teens will get will happen with pushing start times back without a mechanism to ensure kids don't squander the extra 30 minutes
- How even if we believe the claims, we'll measure the impact of the change on teens' health and sleep and academic performance (these are the benefits YOUR side is claiming so you need to prove and validate them in order for people to feel justified in going through the inconvenience you're proposing)
- What threshold percentage wise of the teenage population we need to comply with getting more sleep to see the purported benefits you claim will come from pushing back start times

Answer these questions instead of asking me questions.

“we should measure if what we're claiming will happen, does happen, before we spend a large amount of human and financial resources”

That may very well be what you meant, but it’s not what you said.

And if we changed it and it wasn’t as effective as effective as hoped, then who gives a sh!t? (FYI this is what we call a rhetorical question. I’m not asking YOU a question.) That’s the new time table. You may not be aware, but the current start times are ARBITRARY. It’s not a question of “stopping” something - it’s reverting to the prior state which requires the same resources and effort a SECOND time. There would be no point… unless you are theorizing that later start times would be actively harmful versus merely ineffective.

As for your other questions, I have answered elsewhere in this thread but since you’re slow/obstinate…

I DO NOT CARE how many teens “squander” their extra time. I want ALL teens to have the OPTION to get adequate sleep with appropriate school start times, based on the existing science which indicates that teens’ natural circadian rhythm shifts later into the evening. The data is clear, and endlessly studying this because you and some other selfish adults want to throw a tantrum about it would be a waste of resources.

I DO believe that your main objection to this is the inconvenience it will somehow cause YOU. You do not care about the cost or effort a change would necessitate, and you have made it very clear you could not care less about what’s best for the kids.

Sorry you might have to spring for a babysitter for your younger kids!

So, basically, you want to cop out of parenting by making excuses and letting your kids do what they want and accommodate their poor behavior regardless of who else it impacts. Got it.

You just want to ignore science. Got it.

Yes, science says all kids need sleep. Stop cherry pickingyour facts and learn to set you clocks ahead or parent.

Correct so tell your kids to go to bed earlier and enforce it. Be a parent. Stop expecting the school system to parent your kid.

[Anonymous]

When I was in high school, I would get up at 6am with my own alarm, make my own breakfast, walk down a hill to the bus stop alone sometimes in muddy rain or pitch black post daylight savings, worked after school 3x a week, was in extracurriculars, volunteered on weekends , hung out with friends, translated info to my parents , and was able to get a high GPA and get into a great college.

I don’t know what’s with the hand holding for adolescents these days. Their bodies won’t break down from waking up for a 7:30 class . How do you expect these kids to succeed in college or at a job ? They need to adjust to scheduling. It’s important

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same buses.

Swap ES and HS start times.
ES has a start time of 9:30 now.

Parents that walk or drive kid to school and they work in the 8am hour can get the ES child to school without needing before care.

School bus riding ES students can be monitored by an upper ES student (bus patrols) at the morning bus stop if an adult is not present. Adult should be at the school bus stop for younger ES students anyways.

ES or community centers have after care and after school programs.

It’s not as simple as elementary and high schools swapping start times. Right now, buses finish their high school routes and then immediately start their middle school routes, and when they complete those routes, they immediately start their first elementary routes (for the elementary schools with 9:00 start times) and when they complete those routes, then they do their second elementary school routes (for schools with 9:30 start times). We don’t have enough buses to transport all the elementary school students at the same time. To qualify for bus service, you must live further than 1 mile from your elementary school or 1.5 miles from your middle school or 2 miles from your high school. A higher percentage of elementary school students qualify for bus service because of the shorter distance required, plus elementary schools cover 6 grades plus Pre-K — so there are more elementary schools and more elementary students than at the middle school or high school levels.

If elementary schools had the earliest start time, we’d have to have buses do both elementary school routes before the middle school routes, which would either push back the middle school start time and make the high school start time even later than 9:00 OR the elementary schools with the earliest start times would have to start a half hour earlier than high schools currently do, which would mean elementary school kids walking and taking buses in the dark, having a start time of 7:15, and having to be at bus stops before 7:00. It’s not feasible to just swap elementary and high school start times.

Posters like this are always unwilling to think of solutions instead they're: this won't work this won't do.

No one would start school before 8am. ESs are not as far for most students and buses don't need to be picking up so early in the morning. Before you say it won't work, tell us if it has been tried for you to know it won't work. 7:45am HS start time wasn't going to work for people like you, until the start was changed from 7:25 to 7:45.

The "start ES first" solution has already been assessed and rejected, for reasons that are just as valid now as they were 11 years ago.

Starting ES early is tricky because some parents with older kids usually expect the high school elder siblings to pick up the younger siblings .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As far as MCPS is concerned (and many of us parents who are tired of the wasted time and resources addressing the same thing over and over again), it IS settled

Kids graduate and move on and new kids enter the school system. Nothing is settled for eternity.

Not settled for eternity, but given that it has been addressed relatively recently, and there is no new information and no increased funding for more busses and more bus drivers, and there are many priorities above buying more busses and hiring more bus drivers like that our kids are so far behind in reading and math, I expect it has been settled for quite some time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As far as MCPS is concerned (and many of us parents who are tired of the wasted time and resources addressing the same thing over and over again), it IS settled

Kids graduate and move on and new kids enter the school system. Nothing is settled for eternity.

Not settled for eternity, but given that it has been addressed relatively recently, and there is no new information and no increased funding for more busses and more bus drivers, and there are many priorities above buying more busses and hiring more bus drivers like that our kids are so far behind in reading and math, I expect it has been settled for quite some time.

Even if they buy more buses in less they increase the salary significantly very few want that job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I was in high school, I would get up at 6am with my own alarm, make my own breakfast, walk down a hill to the bus stop alone sometimes in muddy rain or pitch black post daylight savings, worked after school 3x a week, was in extracurriculars, volunteered on weekends , hung out with friends, translated info to my parents , and was able to get a high GPA and get into a great college.

I don’t know what’s with the hand holding for adolescents these days. Their bodies won’t break down from waking up for a 7:30 class . How do you expect these kids to succeed in college or at a job ? They need to adjust to scheduling. It’s important

Why shouldn't everybody be expected to do what I remember having done?!?!?!

[Anonymous]

Sign the petition!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in high school, I would get up at 6am with my own alarm, make my own breakfast, walk down a hill to the bus stop alone sometimes in muddy rain or pitch black post daylight savings, worked after school 3x a week, was in extracurriculars, volunteered on weekends , hung out with friends, translated info to my parents , and was able to get a high GPA and get into a great college.

I don’t know what’s with the hand holding for adolescents these days. Their bodies won’t break down from waking up for a 7:30 class . How do you expect these kids to succeed in college or at a job ? They need to adjust to scheduling. It’s important

Why shouldn't everybody be expected to do what I remember having done?!?!?!

+1 When I was in high school I literally wanted the bus to run me over in the mornings. Not what I want for my child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the argument is that some kid's sleep takes precedence over other kid's sleep?

No, it’s that we should have a schedule that benefits the most kids. If school start time was only pushed back by half an hour, no one would shift extracurriculars to the morning.

What accountability measures are in place or will be put in place to make sure we get the adolescent sleep increase you state is essential and will come from making this costly and burdensome shift?

If you are so concerned about the cost and burden, why are you adamant that we must make it MORE costly and MORE burdensome with “accountability measures”? Would you propose changing that the start time to be earlier if sleep metrics didn’t hit what ever targets you deem satisfactory?

The fact that I have to explain to you why we should measure if what we're claiming will happen, does happen, before we spend a large amount of human and financial resources actually says everything about you, your proposal and your integrity.

How could we possibly measure what happens BEFORE spending the human and financial resources? If you want to measure what actually happens, you cannot do that until you have already implemented the changes (and therefore spent the human and financial resources). Adding “accountability metrics” is simply adding MORE human and financial resources after the fact. I am curious what the ultimate point of such metrics would be? If it turned out to not have an impact would you then want to spend EVEN MORE human and financial resources to change everything back?

Please do explain because I legitimately don’t understand what you are proposing and how it would possibly be cost effective.

I didn't say we should measure before. I said the MEANS to measure need to be put in place before. And yes, if it does not in fact improve sleep, we should reverse course.

That's usually how things work. If you try something and it fails to accomplish what you hoped it would, you stop doing it. I guess that's breaking news to you.

And you have 99 questions for me but no answers to the questions that have been posed to you about:

- How the increased sleep you're claiming teens will get will happen with pushing start times back without a mechanism to ensure kids don't squander the extra 30 minutes
- How even if we believe the claims, we'll measure the impact of the change on teens' health and sleep and academic performance (these are the benefits YOUR side is claiming so you need to prove and validate them in order for people to feel justified in going through the inconvenience you're proposing)
- What threshold percentage wise of the teenage population we need to comply with getting more sleep to see the purported benefits you claim will come from pushing back start times

Answer these questions instead of asking me questions.

“we should measure if what we're claiming will happen, does happen, before we spend a large amount of human and financial resources”

That may very well be what you meant, but it’s not what you said.

And if we changed it and it wasn’t as effective as effective as hoped, then who gives a sh!t? (FYI this is what we call a rhetorical question. I’m not asking YOU a question.) That’s the new time table. You may not be aware, but the current start times are ARBITRARY. It’s not a question of “stopping” something - it’s reverting to the prior state which requires the same resources and effort a SECOND time. There would be no point… unless you are theorizing that later start times would be actively harmful versus merely ineffective.

As for your other questions, I have answered elsewhere in this thread but since you’re slow/obstinate…

I DO NOT CARE how many teens “squander” their extra time. I want ALL teens to have the OPTION to get adequate sleep with appropriate school start times, based on the existing science which indicates that teens’ natural circadian rhythm shifts later into the evening. The data is clear, and endlessly studying this because you and some other selfish adults want to throw a tantrum about it would be a waste of resources.

I DO believe that your main objection to this is the inconvenience it will somehow cause YOU. You do not care about the cost or effort a change would necessitate, and you have made it very clear you could not care less about what’s best for the kids.

Sorry you might have to spring for a babysitter for your younger kids!

So, basically, you want to cop out of parenting by making excuses and letting your kids do what they want and accommodate their poor behavior regardless of who else it impacts. Got it.

You just want to ignore science. Got it.

Yes, science says all kids need sleep. Stop cherry pickingyour facts and learn to set you clocks ahead or parent.

Science says a lot more than that, but you do you.

[Anonymous]

If your child is not in HS or you don't have one that has graduated HS, please do not comment against the petition. Your time will come and you will understand when you see your HS kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your child is not in HS or you don't have one that has graduated HS, please do not comment against the petition. Your time will come and you will understand when you see your HS kid.

Some HS parents may want a later start time but it's for their own needs. They aren't concerned about our kids who are in activities and sports by their own choices or working along with higher level classes and AP's. Or, families who rely on older kids for babysitting (if it's their family or a job). I cannot imagine telling my child they have to drop activities as people are too lazy to get up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your child is not in HS or you don't have one that has graduated HS, please do not comment against the petition. Your time will come and you will understand when you see your HS kid.

Some HS parents may want a later start time but it's for their own needs. They aren't concerned about our kids who are in activities and sports by their own choices or working along with higher level classes and AP's. Or, families who rely on older kids for babysitting (if it's their family or a job). I cannot imagine telling my child they have to drop activities as people are too lazy to get up.

You’re so dramatic. Just how late do you think anyone wants to push back start times that your child would need to drop activities? Even if an activity was moved to before school, but school started later, your child would still be on the same schedule they’re on now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your child is not in HS or you don't have one that has graduated HS, please do not comment against the petition. Your time will come and you will understand when you see your HS kid.

Some HS parents may want a later start time but it's for their own needs. They aren't concerned about our kids who are in activities and sports by their own choices or working along with higher level classes and AP's. Or, families who rely on older kids for babysitting (if it's their family or a job). I cannot imagine telling my child they have to drop activities as people are too lazy to get up.

Nailed It!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your child is not in HS or you don't have one that has graduated HS, please do not comment against the petition. Your time will come and you will understand when you see your HS kid.

Is there a petition against this nonsense that I can sign?