US News 2020 rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I and no person in my family studied at Harvard. However, I have appreciated that many Harvard grads whom I have met rarely brag. When folks ask where they went to school, Harvard grads often reply “a school in Cambridge.”. Also, they are often kind and willing to consider different points of view.

On the other hand, some Harvard recent grads occasionally appear to suffer from delusions of grandeur and demand such perks as business class tickets for entry type positions. It does not go down well for anyone from wherever they graduated from to demand status and payment that is not commensurate with work provided. Whatever school you go to, you need to prove your mettle through making valuable contributions and simply being a good person.

Hopefully, there is a good fit for everyone out there and hopefully Young people will find ways to cultivate their unique gifts to contribute the maximum good to society and at the same time to be true to themselves.

That is 1,000,000x more obnoxious and less humble than just saying "Harvard."

Wtf.? Why would I just say “Harvard”? As clearly stated, I have not attended there, nor has anyone in my family. Many Harvard grads seem modest and competent, while some others do not. Harvard is not the only place where young people can find their way and flourish. What is complicated, in any way,, about that view?

If you parse what you originally wrote it says "I . . . studied at Harvard'.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Times World Rankings

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2020/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats

This has more to do with graduate research.

And Michigan comes out ahead once again.

As well it should, it spends over a half a billion of your tuition dollars on research every year. Funny they don't put that in brochures.

I'm surprised that this is such a bugaboo for you. Tons of undergraduate and graduate students get to participate in those research projects. That is valuable experience.

https://lsa.umich.edu/urop/students.html

This is at the same time the problem for the undergraduates. Public schools like Michigan, UC-Berkeley or UIUC spend a large proportion of their resources on graduate programs and research. Professors only care about their research and do not give a damn to undergraduate teaching because their career and fame only depend on their research. This is why you find you as an undergrad student would have a hard time finding opportunity to interact with professors in those schools. Many courses are not taught by professors but by graduate students. A Berkeley faculty said his class is as large as 2000 students, taught in a theater. These large public schools may have decent research, but that contributes almost nothing to my undergraduate experience. This problem is especially wide spread when the schools have a student body of 40,000 or more. A ranking heavy on graduate programs typically means not good for undergraduate education given a same overall school budget.

Personally I am not sure this true. Our adult child is in a PhD program at Michigan and her/his supervisor has won awards for teaching undergraduates. This person seems very competent both intellectually and socially, and also committed to the growth of both undergraduate and post graduate students. Let us not assume that all motivations are for fame and glory. There are some committed academics out there who care about sparking brilliance in our youth at different stages of their growth.

Sample size of one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It means it’s just like the 80s when some black students joined historically black frats and sorority’s city chapters and otherwise there was no Greek presence on campus. It means that there are now final clubs as there had been prior to late 90s and 2000s.

A few but not all final clubs are coed to avoid the sanctions. But, as a result of the sanctions, there are no women’s final clubs or sororities active on campus.

Mostly it means that the sanction rule failed and caused the final club class ( rich, largely legacy) at Harvard to become more insular.

Also you have never been to Harvard even for a day if you think it has a frat culture.

LOL, I went to MIT which has a very active Greek system and Harvard students, especially white male ones, were more obnoxious than the frat guys at MIT (who were generally very sweet, helpful and anything except stereotypical frat boys). Ask any cabbie in Boston and they'll tell you Harvard students are pricks.

Does Prick mean frat to you? It does not to me and many others. You may consider Harvard students jerks but they are NOT frat boys. Obviously you are a nerdy MIT type that did not get out much and skipped college culture or maybe American culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone even care about any of the schools ranked outside the Top 25?

Yes. And is there a sudden invisible cutoff between 25 and 26?

I really think a good consistent list of top schools is to look at is how College Confidential organizes it. There are the ivies in one category, top universities in another, and then top liberal arts colleges. This is consistent and is not ranked.

Ivies:
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Dartmouth
Harvard
Penn
Princeton
Yale

Top universities:
Berkekely
UCLA
Cal Tech
Carnegie Mellon
Chicago
Duke
Emory
Georgetown
Hopkins
MIT
Michigan
Chapel Hill
Northwestern
Notre Dame
Rice
Stanford
Tulane
UVA
Vanderbilt
Wash U

Top Liberal Arts Colleges:
Amherst
Barnard
Bates
Bowdoin
Bryn Mayr
Carleton
Claremont
Colby
Colgate
Davidson
Grinnell
Hamilton
Harvey Mudd
Haverford
Kenyon
Macalester
Middlebury
Mount Holyoke
Oberlin
Pomona
Reed
Smith
Swarthmore
Trinity
Vassar
Washington & Lee
Wellesley
Wesleyan
Whitman
Williams

All other schools in one separate batch alphabetically.

Simple, clean.

Huh? The Ivies are not necessarily better than other top schools.

Nobody is saying that. It is just a way to organize top schools. They are all top schools, just not ranked. Ivy League is what it is.

It’s an athletic league. That’s what it is. Like the Big Ten. It was established in 1954, so the concept isn’t even that old.

God I'm so tired of this canard.

I am not saying the Ivy League colleges are better than any other. I am saying words and phrases have meanings, and when you say "Ivy League" to most people they don't think of sports the way they do when you say "Big Ten". Stop saying this, you sound like a petulant or bitter person. You're not persuading anyone.

And to repeat, this is not an endorsement of Ivy League schools, simply a rage against stupidity.

If you don’t think they’re better than any other, then why use them as a group in a school ranking?

News flash: I didn't. I am not the person responsible for what the term "Ivy League" means in common understanding. I'm simply pointing out that it does and to imply otherwise is both petulant and stupid.

So because it’s come to mean something that isn’t true, that means you have to use it that way too? Use it accurately.

so are public Ivies just public schools that play football in the Ivy League?

Lol!

No. The term public ivy is unofficial. The Ivy League is an actual NCAA athletic conference.

It's been official for almost forty years. All college counselors use the term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone even care about any of the schools ranked outside the Top 25?

Yes. And is there a sudden invisible cutoff between 25 and 26?

I really think a good consistent list of top schools is to look at is how College Confidential organizes it. There are the ivies in one category, top universities in another, and then top liberal arts colleges. This is consistent and is not ranked.

Ivies:
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Dartmouth
Harvard
Penn
Princeton
Yale

Top universities:
Berkekely
UCLA
Cal Tech
Carnegie Mellon
Chicago
Duke
Emory
Georgetown
Hopkins
MIT
Michigan
Chapel Hill
Northwestern
Notre Dame
Rice
Stanford
Tulane
UVA
Vanderbilt
Wash U

Top Liberal Arts Colleges:
Amherst
Barnard
Bates
Bowdoin
Bryn Mayr
Carleton
Claremont
Colby
Colgate
Davidson
Grinnell
Hamilton
Harvey Mudd
Haverford
Kenyon
Macalester
Middlebury
Mount Holyoke
Oberlin
Pomona
Reed
Smith
Swarthmore
Trinity
Vassar
Washington & Lee
Wellesley
Wesleyan
Whitman
Williams

All other schools in one separate batch alphabetically.

Simple, clean.

Huh? The Ivies are not necessarily better than other top schools.

Nobody is saying that. It is just a way to organize top schools. They are all top schools, just not ranked. Ivy League is what it is.

It’s an athletic league. That’s what it is. Like the Big Ten. It was established in 1954, so the concept isn’t even that old.

God I'm so tired of this canard.

I am not saying the Ivy League colleges are better than any other. I am saying words and phrases have meanings, and when you say "Ivy League" to most people they don't think of sports the way they do when you say "Big Ten". Stop saying this, you sound like a petulant or bitter person. You're not persuading anyone.

And to repeat, this is not an endorsement of Ivy League schools, simply a rage against stupidity.

If you don’t think they’re better than any other, then why use them as a group in a school ranking?

News flash: I didn't. I am not the person responsible for what the term "Ivy League" means in common understanding. I'm simply pointing out that it does and to imply otherwise is both petulant and stupid.

So because it’s come to mean something that isn’t true, that means you have to use it that way too? Use it accurately.

so are public Ivies just public schools that play football in the Ivy League?

Lol!

No. The term public ivy is unofficial. The Ivy League is an actual NCAA athletic conference.

It's been official for almost forty years. All college counselors use the term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Ivy

I don't think you understand the distinction between official and unofficial.

Public Ivy is a colloquialism coined by an author and used by college counselors and some others when talking about colleges.

The Ivy League is official in that it is a recognized NCAA athletic conference.

See the difference?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Crickets. Where are the UVA boosters? Congrats to Michigan pushing UVA out.

Sorry your kid didn’t get in.

Didn’t apply. Not a VA resident. He got into one of the top 10 though.

Why the chip on the shoulder then?

NP. I think the prior poster was primarily trying to get a rise out of the poster who frequently posts some combination of "27 years, 1, 2, or 3. Always ahead of Michigan. USNWR is Gold standard. No other ranking matters". As another poster remarked on a different thread, this has been done "ad nauseam". Go ahead and search the forum for "27" (and probably "26" last year).

UVA is a great school, but that poster's obsession with USNWR ranking as some kind of definitive measure without regard to major/fit was grating.

--Not a UofM grad

'


But that poster was correct if you are looking at the correct USN&WR subject-mmatter rankings Public universities can't be compared to private universities and private SLACS. They have completely different missions. A more accurate ranking is - in the same USN&WR - the rankings of PUBLIC Universities, which is what is cited for the rankings of UCLA, Berkeley, Michigan and UVA, traditionally. And, yes, UVA is usually 2 or 3 there. That's in the same report you are looking at. This year UVA is at 4th in the nation. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I and no person in my family studied at Harvard. However, I have appreciated that many Harvard grads whom I have met rarely brag. When folks ask where they went to school, Harvard grads often reply “a school in Cambridge.”. Also, they are often kind and willing to consider different points of view.

On the other hand, some Harvard recent grads occasionally appear to suffer from delusions of grandeur and demand such perks as business class tickets for entry type positions. It does not go down well for anyone from wherever they graduated from to demand status and payment that is not commensurate with work provided. Whatever school you go to, you need to prove your mettle through making valuable contributions and simply being a good person.

Hopefully, there is a good fit for everyone out there and hopefully Young people will find ways to cultivate their unique gifts to contribute the maximum good to society and at the same time to be true to themselves.

That is 1,000,000x more obnoxious and less humble than just saying "Harvard."

Wtf.? Why would I just say “Harvard”? As clearly stated, I have not attended there, nor has anyone in my family. Many Harvard grads seem modest and competent, while some others do not. Harvard is not the only place where young people can find their way and flourish. What is complicated, in any way,, about that view?

You don't know why it is obnoxious to say "I went to a school in Cambridge"? Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I and no person in my family studied at Harvard. However, I have appreciated that many Harvard grads whom I have met rarely brag. When folks ask where they went to school, Harvard grads often reply “a school in Cambridge.”. Also, they are often kind and willing to consider different points of view.

On the other hand, some Harvard recent grads occasionally appear to suffer from delusions of grandeur and demand such perks as business class tickets for entry type positions. It does not go down well for anyone from wherever they graduated from to demand status and payment that is not commensurate with work provided. Whatever school you go to, you need to prove your mettle through making valuable contributions and simply being a good person.

Hopefully, there is a good fit for everyone out there and hopefully Young people will find ways to cultivate their unique gifts to contribute the maximum good to society and at the same time to be true to themselves.

That is 1,000,000x more obnoxious and less humble than just saying "Harvard."

Wtf.? Why would I just say “Harvard”? As clearly stated, I have not attended there, nor has anyone in my family. Many Harvard grads seem modest and competent, while some others do not. Harvard is not the only place where young people can find their way and flourish. What is complicated, in any way,, about that view?

You don't know why it is obnoxious to say "I went to a school in Cambridge"? Really?

Right and half the people would be irritated if they said Harvard. They can’t win.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I and no person in my family studied at Harvard. However, I have appreciated that many Harvard grads whom I have met rarely brag. When folks ask where they went to school, Harvard grads often reply “a school in Cambridge.”. Also, they are often kind and willing to consider different points of view.

On the other hand, some Harvard recent grads occasionally appear to suffer from delusions of grandeur and demand such perks as business class tickets for entry type positions. It does not go down well for anyone from wherever they graduated from to demand status and payment that is not commensurate with work provided. Whatever school you go to, you need to prove your mettle through making valuable contributions and simply being a good person.

Hopefully, there is a good fit for everyone out there and hopefully Young people will find ways to cultivate their unique gifts to contribute the maximum good to society and at the same time to be true to themselves.

That is 1,000,000x more obnoxious and less humble than just saying "Harvard."

Wtf.? Why would I just say “Harvard”? As clearly stated, I have not attended there, nor has anyone in my family. Many Harvard grads seem modest and competent, while some others do not. Harvard is not the only place where young people can find their way and flourish. What is complicated, in any way,, about that view?

You don't know why it is obnoxious to say "I went to a school in Cambridge"? Really?

Right and half the people would be irritated if they said Harvard. They can’t win.

OP regarding that trivial side point here - Thank you and exactly. I largely go with my intuition when meeting people. Quite a few Harvard grads whom I have met have come across as genuinely kind, smart and hard working people. Further, they are often easily able to understand non monetary considerations in decision making, which I greatly appreciate. I didn't get the feeling that they were playing faux humility games but also not wanting to lead with the obvious advantages that they have enjoyed. Many brilliant students who qualify for Harvard and other Ivy Leagues but do not get in for different reasons that are not related to their academic abilities. Cream rises to the top in many favorable situations. In fact, for STEM related areas of grad school, it is probably not advantageous to attend MIT/ Harvard/ Cal tech etc. because many strong grad programs only accept the top 5-10 percent of their undergrad classes. Further, long term income earnings are similar for high school graduates of similar aptitude and applications.

Also, there are many excellent schools in Cambridge/ Boston so it is not obvious which one they meant, at least to me. We also have quite a number of friends/ acquaintances who attended other excellent schools in that area.

On the other hand, I have definitely met some uber entitled Harvard grads. I do not believe that that approach worked well for them.

In the end, for most of us and our children, there is no substitute for hard work, integrity, and consistency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Crickets. Where are the UVA boosters? Congrats to Michigan pushing UVA out.

Sorry your kid didn’t get in.

Didn’t apply. Not a VA resident. He got into one of the top 10 though.

Why the chip on the shoulder then?

NP. I think the prior poster was primarily trying to get a rise out of the poster who frequently posts some combination of "27 years, 1, 2, or 3. Always ahead of Michigan. USNWR is Gold standard. No other ranking matters". As another poster remarked on a different thread, this has been done "ad nauseam". Go ahead and search the forum for "27" (and probably "26" last year).

UVA is a great school, but that poster's obsession with USNWR ranking as some kind of definitive measure without regard to major/fit was grating.

--Not a UofM grad

'


But that poster was correct if you are looking at the correct USN&WR subject-mmatter rankings Public universities can't be compared to private universities and private SLACS. They have completely different missions. A more accurate ranking is - in the same USN&WR - the rankings of PUBLIC Universities, which is what is cited for the rankings of UCLA, Berkeley, Michigan and UVA, traditionally. And, yes, UVA is usually 2 or 3 there. That's in the same report you are looking at. This year UVA is at 4th in the nation. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

I am pretty sure all universities supposed to be engaged in education. Private is a misnomer. Private schools get public research grants, students with federally subsidized loans and grants go there, and they get are given tax advantaged status for presumably doing work that is in the public good.

Regarding the person who made that quote, the point was they obnoxiously repeated it. A Princeton supporter would be similarly obnoxious if they plastered #1 if USNWR for the past 9 years and counting (or whatever it is) on every single thread having to do with higher education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Statistically it is wrong to to assign a numerical store to its school because the margin of error of its data sources is greater than the difference of the scores.

They should rank schools in tiers:

1. Super elite tier: HYPMS

2. Elite tier (6 - 15): Columbia, Penn, Chicago, Duke, Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, ...

3. Top tier (16 - 30): These schools are equals in terms of prestige and rankings -- UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Cal, CMU, Emory, Georgetown, NYU, USC, Georgia Tech ...

4. Wake Forest, W&M ...

Why is Cornell in tier two?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It means it’s just like the 80s when some black students joined historically black frats and sorority’s city chapters and otherwise there was no Greek presence on campus. It means that there are now final clubs as there had been prior to late 90s and 2000s.

A few but not all final clubs are coed to avoid the sanctions. But, as a result of the sanctions, there are no women’s final clubs or sororities active on campus.

Mostly it means that the sanction rule failed and caused the final club class ( rich, largely legacy) at Harvard to become more insular.

Also you have never been to Harvard even for a day if you think it has a frat culture.

LOL, I went to MIT which has a very active Greek system and Harvard students, especially white male ones, were more obnoxious than the frat guys at MIT (who were generally very sweet, helpful and anything except stereotypical frat boys). Ask any cabbie in Boston and they'll tell you Harvard students are pricks.

Does Prick mean frat to you? It does not to me and many others. You may consider Harvard students jerks but they are NOT frat boys. Obviously you are a nerdy MIT type that did not get out much and skipped college culture or maybe American culture.

DP. You must have never been to an MIT frat party......arguably the best party scene amongst the Boston colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It means it’s just like the 80s when some black students joined historically black frats and sorority’s city chapters and otherwise there was no Greek presence on campus. It means that there are now final clubs as there had been prior to late 90s and 2000s.

A few but not all final clubs are coed to avoid the sanctions. But, as a result of the sanctions, there are no women’s final clubs or sororities active on campus.

Mostly it means that the sanction rule failed and caused the final club class ( rich, largely legacy) at Harvard to become more insular.

Also you have never been to Harvard even for a day if you think it has a frat culture.

LOL, I went to MIT which has a very active Greek system and Harvard students, especially white male ones, were more obnoxious than the frat guys at MIT (who were generally very sweet, helpful and anything except stereotypical frat boys). Ask any cabbie in Boston and they'll tell you Harvard students are pricks.

Does Prick mean frat to you? It does not to me and many others. You may consider Harvard students jerks but they are NOT frat boys. Obviously you are a nerdy MIT type that did not get out much and skipped college culture or maybe American culture.

DP. You must have never been to an MIT frat party......arguably the best party scene amongst the Boston colleges.

+1 by NP who fondly remembers MIT frat party where pre-renovation demolition started during the party...

[Anonymous]

MIT frats do not equal Harvard frats

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Crickets. Where are the UVA boosters? Congrats to Michigan pushing UVA out.

Sorry your kid didn’t get in.

Didn’t apply. Not a VA resident. He got into one of the top 10 though.

We are all terribly impressed.