Jeff Selingo on people skipping "target schools"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree - this is our plan.

I have been saying for a few years that I think grad school is the new college, so it makes sense to go to a state college and save some $ for grad school.

I honestly don't understand this logic at all. So many grad schools / grad degrees produce kids with poor outcomes. So many jobs/industries don't care about a grad degree whatsoever.

This is another skewed DMV perspective that worked for you, but you can't rely on it holding going forward.

I don't interact with too many people without post-grad degrees. Came to DC from NYC, so I guess it’s the crowd. My oldest is interested in engineering - and my dad and his dad were engineers and both had master’s. My dad’s company paid for him to get it (probably my grandfather’s did too). But I don’t think either of them thought it was worthless.

I don't understand this sentiment either. I grew up in one of the poorest states in the US. Most of my smart high school friends didn't have families who could afford to pay for private colleges (also college admission information wasn't as widely available on the internet back then). All of my high school friends who have since then secured good jobs and moved out of said poor state and into HCOL cities with their professional jobs have graduate degrees from top ranked schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

Group 1 definitely (would personally swap one out for a group 2- won't name to avoid DCUM food fight).

Group 2 .maybe if I had the money.

State flagship over groups 3 and 4.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many of us went to state schools and don't see the appeal of the SLAC. Read that again - don't see the appeal. It's not that they cost too much.
The environment is not what we want for our kid.

If kid got into an Ivy, had worked so hard that they succeeded in getting into an Ivy, I think that's the tipping point. We would accept that they know more than we do.

I went to both HYPS and flagship state schools and absolutely see the value of a SLAC. If you are unable to see the appeal of a SLAC for some students, that speaks to a gap in your education rather than reflecting the actual value of a SLAC.

I went to Duke and wholeheartedly agree. I look at the amazing experience that my DC is having at a top SLAC and compare it to my own. I’d choose a top-ranked SLAC over Duke without question if given the opportunity. Yale alum husband feels the same. IYKYK

Princeton alum here and I agree. Would rather see both my kids at SLACs.

The market doesn't agree with you much.
It all depends on the kids. My kids would not like SLACs.

The imaginary market in your head, maybe?

What do you mean imaninary??
It's realy business and people are paying real money.

I have no idea what you mean about the market agreeing with you that SLACs aren’t liked, because obviously the enrollment and applications numbers show otherwise. Therefore the market must be imaginary and in your head.

What do you mean?? National private schools get way way more applicants and enrollment.
??

Oh my God whatever education you had is appalling. Here is a hint: think very, very carefully about why a SMALL liberal arts college might enroll fewer students than a national private university. See if you can solve that difficult problem. I even put an important word in caps for you to help. 🤔🤔🤔

It’s a tough one, I know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many of us went to state schools and don't see the appeal of the SLAC. Read that again - don't see the appeal. It's not that they cost too much.
The environment is not what we want for our kid.

If kid got into an Ivy, had worked so hard that they succeeded in getting into an Ivy, I think that's the tipping point. We would accept that they know more than we do.

I went to both HYPS and flagship state schools and absolutely see the value of a SLAC. If you are unable to see the appeal of a SLAC for some students, that speaks to a gap in your education rather than reflecting the actual value of a SLAC.

I went to Duke and wholeheartedly agree. I look at the amazing experience that my DC is having at a top SLAC and compare it to my own. I’d choose a top-ranked SLAC over Duke without question if given the opportunity. Yale alum husband feels the same. IYKYK

Princeton alum here and I agree. Would rather see both my kids at SLACs.

The market doesn't agree with you much.
It all depends on the kids. My kids would not like SLACs.

The imaginary market in your head, maybe?

What do you mean imaninary??
It's realy business and people are paying real money.

I have no idea what you mean about the market agreeing with you that SLACs aren’t liked, because obviously the enrollment and applications numbers show otherwise. Therefore the market must be imaginary and in your head.

What do you mean?? National private schools get way way more applicants and enrollment.
??

Oh my God whatever education you had is appalling. Here is a hint: think very, very carefully about why a SMALL liberal arts college might enroll fewer students than a national private university. See if you can solve that difficult problem. I even put an important word in caps for you to help. 🤔🤔🤔

It’s a tough one, I know.

Demand is much weaker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not paying for 90% of group 2. NFW for group 3

But plenty of other people do. I think they’ll be fine without your money.

Who is paying for group 3?

Certainly for schools like Wake Forrest, Northeastern, URochestser, maybe Case and Lehigh.
These schools don't belong together with most of the other schools.

If BU BC Tufts are in group 2. Wake Forrest and Northeastern should move to group 2.

Things have changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not paying for 90% of group 2. NFW for group 3

But plenty of other people do. I think they’ll be fine without your money.

Who is paying for group 3?

Certainly for schools like Wake Forrest, Northeastern, URochestser, maybe Case and Lehigh.
These schools don't belong together with most of the other schools.

If BU BC Tufts are in group 2. Wake Forrest and Northeastern should move to group 2.

Things have changed.

Yes, see above revised list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here are the US News Top 100 National Universities (private only). Not talking SLACs. I broke them into three groups but they stay in ranking order, all of group 2 is higher ranked than group 3.

If you could, almost all would pay for Group 1.
I agree that Group 2 is more and more popular, with UMC families and they are often choosing ED to lock in a slot, when they think they won't get into Group 1.
Of Group 3, which would you pay full price? I think this is the group that Jeff Selingo is talking about people preferring a state school, though some of these schools are extremely popular.

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth,MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago, Rice

Group 2: Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU St.Louis, USC, NYU, BC, Tufts, BU

Group 3: Lehigh, Rochester, Wake Forest, CWRU, Northeastern, Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Villanova, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

Good list. I’d pay for Group 1 and Group 2 full price. Most of Group 3 gives merit. I’d be fine paying Group 3 with a discounted rate.

Even if the discounted rate all-in was close to $70k? Tuition, room & board, university program fees?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

I mean, it is DCUM, as in the District of Columbia. Most of us don’t give a crap about California.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here are the US News Top 100 National Universities (private only). Not talking SLACs. I broke them into three groups but they stay in ranking order, all of group 2 is higher ranked than group 3.

If you could, almost all would pay for Group 1.
I agree that Group 2 is more and more popular, with UMC families and they are often choosing ED to lock in a slot, when they think they won't get into Group 1.
Of Group 3, which would you pay full price? I think this is the group that Jeff Selingo is talking about people preferring a state school, though some of these schools are extremely popular.

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth,MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago, Rice

Group 2: Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU St.Louis, USC, NYU, BC, Tufts, BU

Group 3: Lehigh, Rochester, Wake Forest, CWRU, Northeastern, Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Villanova, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

But Group 3 tends to be where the merit money comes into play. So the question is really (assuming most people would pay for Group 1 if possible) would you full pay Group 2 or look for merit in Group 3? Group 3, so far for my kids, is coming in between 50-60K a year (the ones they applied to, obviously not all of them). Which is still expensive, and may not end up being enough merit money, but a lot better than the 85-90k a year in Group 2. Mine did not apply to any in Group 2 because there is no chance of merit.

Some of these in group 3 are NOT known for giving much merit unless that has changed this year. Seriously, quote me some Villanova numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

Which really just goes to show how useless the rankings are when it comes to the massive numbers of students on the west coast.

Feel free to continue to take the position that California students, most of whom want to work in California, will pick Lehigh because some ranking says it is better.

The regional delusion is real, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

I mean, it is DCUM, as in the District of Columbia. Most of us don’t give a crap about California.

Sure but then don’t pretend your discussion of groups of universities is actually meaningful for the entire country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

Group 1 definitely (would personally swap one out for a group 2- won't name to avoid DCUM food fight).

Group 2 .maybe if I had the money.

State flagship over groups 3 and 4.

+1 for most families, state flagship would have a better ROI than groups 3 or 4, UNLESS, you get great aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

Feel better?