MOCO - County Wide Upzoning, Everywhere

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:People move to SFH neighborhoods specifically to have space. They are going to ruin the entire county until it is paved concrete jungle like Tokyo and we all get to live in sh!tty 400 sqft apts.

But hey, at least the crappy chipotle down the street is walkable. I can’t wait until this stupendously backfires and everyone with means (by and large part home owners) flees because all of the upzoning imports tons of poverty and trashy people into the county. Gee, you mean it sucks when your neighborhood street has 30000 cars parked all over because each triplex houses 20 people all with their own cars?

R.I.P. MoCo. Howard and AA Counties looking more attractive by the day.

This is so off-base. Everyone moving into these upzoned pod apartments will walk and bicycle everywhere! lol

No, no…everyone is going to take the new “mass transit,” THE BUS.

You haven’t heard about the magic bus? It’s the newest craze! It’s a low budget low income roadgoing monorail, and it’s going to hold up traffic in so many new and interesting ways!

There are tens, TENS, of people that are going to ride it, somewhere. Maybe.

The important part is that it allows the county to say that there is mass transit to allow for removing parking restrictions and adding density, at the same time! So get on board THE BUS, Boomer!

What a weird thing to say. Buses actually are mass transit, and lots of people ride buses, right now. There were over 14 million trips just on RideOn, last year, and that doesn't include Metrobus ridership. And also with bus service that still isn't as good, overall, as it was before covid. Maybe you don't ride buses, but that's a you issue.

Glad you agree that having just 19,000 round trips a day in a county of more than a million people makes the bus a fringe transportation solution.

Good grief. Imagine calling buses a fringe transportation solution.

Do you know what fringe means?

Do you know that what less than one tenth of one percent people ride the bus each day means? Almost no growth will happen based on the fantasy that bus ridership will increase because the developers know it won’t sell well.

I’m not sure why you are replying to someone that agrees with you. I was questioning their knowledge of the word fringe based on their assertion that the bus was somehow a mainstream form of transportation in MOCO.

I thought that was a DP. I was agreeing with the person who posted the numbers showing that bus ridership is so low that we shouldn’t be considering it as a mode of transportation for serving new housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what upzoning will accomplish?

I just want someone to lay it all out, in detail, so we can all come back later and point out how it didn't do *any* of the things we were promised.

Allow property owners to build two-unit, three-unit, or four-unit residential buildings, by right, in addition to one-unit residential buildings, in certain areas of Montgomery County where currently only one-unit residential buildings may be built by right.

That's it? That's all you got? Nothing about what it will mean for housing prices? Nothing about how many more units will be built?

I dont know how upzoning became the answer to all of our problems, but y'all are going to be *very* disappointed.

I don't know who has said that upzoning is the answer to all of our problems?

Either upzoning won't result in more housing, in which case the UPZONING WILL DESTROY THE TRANQUILITY OF BETHESDA, POTOMAC, AND THE UPCOUNTY (!) posters have nothing to worry about, and you can be smug and say "I told you so." Or upzoning will result in more housing, in which case the UPZONING WILL DESTROY THE TRANQUILITY OF BETHESDA, POTOMAC, AND THE UPCOUNTY (!) posters do potentially have something to worry about (depending on what they worry about), and you cannnot be smug and say "I told you so." Choose one.

I live in the upcounty (Germantown), which, according to other parts of DCUM, is Ganglandia, not Tranquilityville.

A big problem with this particular strawman (again, apparently the main playbook for those advocating for higher density) is that the most likely place for these higher densities to happen is not BETHESDA, POTOMAC, AND THE UPCOUNTY, but in close-in Silver Spring, where lower land acquisition cost makes projects particularly lucrative for developers and where few, if any, community covenants exist. I'm not even sure that Potomac, proper, at River & Falls, is in play.

So the wealthy stay relatively immune, the "housing crisis" (used to support where-I-want-to-change-others'-communities-so-I-can-get-what-I-want policy) isn't really solved, densities are added where we can least afford to have them from a schools/public facilities/infrastructure standpoint (still no answer, there), and the more modest communities in less wealthy parts of the county bear the brunt. Sounds about right for a bunch of developer shills...

[Anonymous]

Which strawman?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain what upzoning will accomplish?

I just want someone to lay it all out, in detail, so we can all come back later and point out how it didn't do *any* of the things we were promised.

Allow property owners to build two-unit, three-unit, or four-unit residential buildings, by right, in addition to one-unit residential buildings, in certain areas of Montgomery County where currently only one-unit residential buildings may be built by right.

That's only part of the upzoning. Lay it all out, including the layered effects of state legislation, PHDs, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People move to SFH neighborhoods specifically to have space. They are going to ruin the entire county until it is paved concrete jungle like Tokyo and we all get to live in sh!tty 400 sqft apts.

But hey, at least the crappy chipotle down the street is walkable. I can’t wait until this stupendously backfires and everyone with means (by and large part home owners) flees because all of the upzoning imports tons of poverty and trashy people into the county. Gee, you mean it sucks when your neighborhood street has 30000 cars parked all over because each triplex houses 20 people all with their own cars?

R.I.P. MoCo. Howard and AA Counties looking more attractive by the day.

This is so off-base. Everyone moving into these upzoned pod apartments will walk and bicycle everywhere! lol

Are they pod apartments, or are they luxury apartments? Or maybe they are luxury pod apartments?

If you want to move to Howard County or Anne Arundel County, you are free to do so.

If you want to move to DC, or areas with previously established higher density, you, and others, are free to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Which strawman?

The one described in the post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Which strawman?

The one described in the post.

Which one? That the zoning will do something? That the zoning won't do something?

[Anonymous]

Still waiting for the YIMBYs who said voters have consistently voted for YIMBY candidates to explain what’s gone so wrong and why their policies have produced anemic housing growth, no jobs, and broken budgets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People move to SFH neighborhoods specifically to have space. They are going to ruin the entire county until it is paved concrete jungle like Tokyo and we all get to live in sh!tty 400 sqft apts.

But hey, at least the crappy chipotle down the street is walkable. I can’t wait until this stupendously backfires and everyone with means (by and large part home owners) flees because all of the upzoning imports tons of poverty and trashy people into the county. Gee, you mean it sucks when your neighborhood street has 30000 cars parked all over because each triplex houses 20 people all with their own cars?

R.I.P. MoCo. Howard and AA Counties looking more attractive by the day.

This is so off-base. Everyone moving into these upzoned pod apartments will walk and bicycle everywhere! lol

Are they pod apartments, or are they luxury apartments? Or maybe they are luxury pod apartments?

If you want to move to Howard County or Anne Arundel County, you are free to do so.

If you want to move to DC, or areas with previously established higher density, you, and others, are free to do so.

Well, no. This would be a reasonable response if someone posted "omg Potomac is a car-dependent exurban hellscape, DC is looking more attractive by the day!" but nobody did. "I hate it here, I want to move" is different from "I support (or oppose) changes to Montgomery County's policies on housing, land use, and transportation."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting for the YIMBYs who said voters have consistently voted for YIMBY candidates to explain what’s gone so wrong and why their policies have produced anemic housing growth, no jobs, and broken budgets.

You're the only one who has said this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting for the YIMBYs who said voters have consistently voted for YIMBY candidates to explain what’s gone so wrong and why their policies have produced anemic housing growth, no jobs, and broken budgets.

You're the only one who has said this.

Nah. The YIMBY earlier in the thread said “ So what's your explanation for the fact that a majority of voters in Montgomery County, consistently, for several elections now, have voted for candidates who support the policies you oppose?”

Consistently for “several elections,” candidates who support YIMBY policies have won elections, according to the YIMBYs. Your side has won at the ballot box. Now own the results.

You might actually get more housing if you could admit that these policies have failed, but for some reason you continue dominating policy discussions with the same bad ideas. If it were me, and I kept doing the same things and housing kept getting worse, I’d try something different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting for the YIMBYs who said voters have consistently voted for YIMBY candidates to explain what’s gone so wrong and why their policies have produced anemic housing growth, no jobs, and broken budgets.

You're the only one who has said this.

Nah. The YIMBY earlier in the thread said “ So what's your explanation for the fact that a majority of voters in Montgomery County, consistently, for several elections now, have voted for candidates who support the policies you oppose?”

Consistently for “several elections,” candidates who support YIMBY policies have won elections, according to the YIMBYs. Your side has won at the ballot box. Now own the results.

You might actually get more housing if you could admit that these policies have failed, but for some reason you continue dominating policy discussions with the same bad ideas. If it were me, and I kept doing the same things and housing kept getting worse, I’d try something different.

"Candidates who support the policies you oppose" is not the same as "YIMBY candidates."

Recent elections: 2018, 2022. Maybe you expect huge results with respect to housing, based on policy changes made within the last 6 years, including covid. I don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting for the YIMBYs who said voters have consistently voted for YIMBY candidates to explain what’s gone so wrong and why their policies have produced anemic housing growth, no jobs, and broken budgets.

You're the only one who has said this.

Nah. The YIMBY earlier in the thread said “ So what's your explanation for the fact that a majority of voters in Montgomery County, consistently, for several elections now, have voted for candidates who support the policies you oppose?”

Consistently for “several elections,” candidates who support YIMBY policies have won elections, according to the YIMBYs. Your side has won at the ballot box. Now own the results.

You might actually get more housing if you could admit that these policies have failed, but for some reason you continue dominating policy discussions with the same bad ideas. If it were me, and I kept doing the same things and housing kept getting worse, I’d try something different.

"Candidates who support the policies you oppose" is not the same as "YIMBY candidates."

Recent elections: 2018, 2022. Maybe you expect huge results with respect to housing, based on policy changes made within the last 6 years, including covid. I don't.

You didn’t say last two elections. You said several, so go back to at least 2014. And I didn’t say YIMBY candidates above, I said candidates who support YIMBY policies, so your distinction is irrelevant.

Name a single land use vote the YIMBYs have lost since 2004 (or 2014). You haven’t named a single one over two pages, so let’s just agree that you can’t because the YIMBYs have prevailed in every major land use vote. A big expert like yourself should be able identify the votes you lost and the impact those failed initiatives had on the housing market.

There’s no way around it: You own this. Now own the results. There’s been time for your subsidies and zoning changes and all the rest to work before COVID and there’s been time for them to work after. Other local economies and housing markets have bounced back since COVID. This one continues to get worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting for the YIMBYs who said voters have consistently voted for YIMBY candidates to explain what’s gone so wrong and why their policies have produced anemic housing growth, no jobs, and broken budgets.

You're the only one who has said this.

Nah. The YIMBY earlier in the thread said “ So what's your explanation for the fact that a majority of voters in Montgomery County, consistently, for several elections now, have voted for candidates who support the policies you oppose?”

Consistently for “several elections,” candidates who support YIMBY policies have won elections, according to the YIMBYs. Your side has won at the ballot box. Now own the results.

You might actually get more housing if you could admit that these policies have failed, but for some reason you continue dominating policy discussions with the same bad ideas. If it were me, and I kept doing the same things and housing kept getting worse, I’d try something different.

"Candidates who support the policies you oppose" is not the same as "YIMBY candidates."

Recent elections: 2018, 2022. Maybe you expect huge results with respect to housing, based on policy changes made within the last 6 years, including covid. I don't.

You didn’t say last two elections. You said several, so go back to at least 2014. And I didn’t say YIMBY candidates above, I said candidates who support YIMBY policies, so your distinction is irrelevant.

Name a single land use vote the YIMBYs have lost since 2004 (or 2014). You haven’t named a single one over two pages, so let’s just agree that you can’t because the YIMBYs have prevailed in every major land use vote. A big expert like yourself should be able identify the votes you lost and the impact those failed initiatives had on the housing market.

There’s no way around it: You own this. Now own the results. There’s been time for your subsidies and zoning changes and all the rest to work before COVID and there’s been time for them to work after. Other local economies and housing markets have bounced back since COVID. This one continues to get worse.

What are you trying to accomplish here? Seriously. You're over here, anonymously being nasty to another anonymous person on the internet, saying "your policies are terrible and it's all your fault." Why are you wasting your time? Is this getting you what you want? Whatever that might be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still waiting for the YIMBYs who said voters have consistently voted for YIMBY candidates to explain what’s gone so wrong and why their policies have produced anemic housing growth, no jobs, and broken budgets.

You're the only one who has said this.

Nah. The YIMBY earlier in the thread said “ So what's your explanation for the fact that a majority of voters in Montgomery County, consistently, for several elections now, have voted for candidates who support the policies you oppose?”

Consistently for “several elections,” candidates who support YIMBY policies have won elections, according to the YIMBYs. Your side has won at the ballot box. Now own the results.

You might actually get more housing if you could admit that these policies have failed, but for some reason you continue dominating policy discussions with the same bad ideas. If it were me, and I kept doing the same things and housing kept getting worse, I’d try something different.

"Candidates who support the policies you oppose" is not the same as "YIMBY candidates."

Recent elections: 2018, 2022. Maybe you expect huge results with respect to housing, based on policy changes made within the last 6 years, including covid. I don't.

You didn’t say last two elections. You said several, so go back to at least 2014. And I didn’t say YIMBY candidates above, I said candidates who support YIMBY policies, so your distinction is irrelevant.

Name a single land use vote the YIMBYs have lost since 2004 (or 2014). You haven’t named a single one over two pages, so let’s just agree that you can’t because the YIMBYs have prevailed in every major land use vote. A big expert like yourself should be able identify the votes you lost and the impact those failed initiatives had on the housing market.

There’s no way around it: You own this. Now own the results. There’s been time for your subsidies and zoning changes and all the rest to work before COVID and there’s been time for them to work after. Other local economies and housing markets have bounced back since COVID. This one continues to get worse.

What are you trying to accomplish here? Seriously. You're over here, anonymously being nasty to another anonymous person on the internet, saying "your policies are terrible and it's all your fault." Why are you wasting your time? Is this getting you what you want? Whatever that might be.

What I actually want is growth. YIMBY initiatives haven’t delivered even though they’ve had broad support on the council and have become the prevailing land use policy in MoCo. I’d like to know why you think YIMBY policies have failed and how you think YIMBYs need to change course. If you can’t do that, you should consider whether your continued advocacy is helpful or harmful to growth. That’s not nasty. It’s honest.