Who said there isn't a North-South divide?

[Anonymous]

More data. Looking again at the 2016-17 transfer report, you can get the number of non-ED neighborhood students enrolled at each school - that's the non-ED students who lived in the elementary school zones and attended the their neighborhood school. The total for the Wakefield feeder elementaries was 1919 non-ED neighborhood students, which works out to about 320 per grade. If all of those kids were to continue through neighborhood schools to high school at Wakefield, that would mean about 1280 non-ED neighborhood students at Wakefield at a given time who didn't transfer out of their neighborhood elementary schools.

In 2016-17, Wakefield had 925 non-ED neighborhood students. If we assume that number will grow by the same 20% the APS staff predicted for all of Wakefield by the time those elementary students are in high school, that would project 1110 non-ED neighborhood students at Wakefield, which is less than the 1280 students calculated above. So even if all of the UMCs who transferred out in elementary continue to transfer out in high school, there is no trouble accounting for where the future non-ED students at Wakefield will come from. They will come from the same pool of non-ED students who stuck with their neighborhood schools all along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've established that a couple hundred non ed students transfer out, a somewhat smaller number, less than 200, transfer in. There are 1000 non ed students at Wakefield. That means something like 800 non ed kids are zoned for Wakefield and go there. We don't know their personal educational histories, so we can't for sure say where they were living or where they were going to school before this point, so on those narrow terms, no, I can't prove it. but it's reasonable to think that most non ed students at Wakefield went to Oakridge, Henry, and the option schools because non-ed students are a minority at most other SA neighborhood schools.

What's your response to the poster at 11:40?

It's an interesting analysis but it's missing carlin springs and I think it puts too much emphasis on an arbitrary breakpoint, title i status. Claremont is nearly title 1, Campbell is and so is Drew. So it's actually eliminating from the analysis two of the three most popular option schools for SA students. These schools are often preferable to parents in schools with farms rates at or above 70. There a huge difference between half of a school being disadvantaged and nearly all of it being so.

[Anonymous]

New poster here, PP is right. One has to consider Claremont and Campbell. Until last year, almost all of the Claremont kids came from Abingdon and to a lesser extent, Oakridge. Campbell takes a measurable number of kids from Barcroft and the rest are mostly from Carlin Springs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've established that a couple hundred non ed students transfer out, a somewhat smaller number, less than 200, transfer in. There are 1000 non ed students at Wakefield. That means something like 800 non ed kids are zoned for Wakefield and go there. We don't know their personal educational histories, so we can't for sure say where they were living or where they were going to school before this point, so on those narrow terms, no, I can't prove it. but it's reasonable to think that most non ed students at Wakefield went to Oakridge, Henry, and the option schools because non-ed students are a minority at most other SA neighborhood schools.

What's your response to the poster at 11:40?

It's an interesting analysis but it's missing carlin springs and I think it puts too much emphasis on an arbitrary breakpoint, title i status. Claremont is nearly title 1, Campbell is and so is Drew. So it's actually eliminating from the analysis two of the three most popular option schools for SA students. These schools are often preferable to parents in schools with farms rates at or above 70. There a huge difference between half of a school being disadvantaged and nearly all of it being so.

Carlin Springs doesn't feed into Wakefield, it goes to W-L.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've established that a couple hundred non ed students transfer out, a somewhat smaller number, less than 200, transfer in. There are 1000 non ed students at Wakefield. That means something like 800 non ed kids are zoned for Wakefield and go there. We don't know their personal educational histories, so we can't for sure say where they were living or where they were going to school before this point, so on those narrow terms, no, I can't prove it. but it's reasonable to think that most non ed students at Wakefield went to Oakridge, Henry, and the option schools because non-ed students are a minority at most other SA neighborhood schools.

What's your response to the poster at 11:40?

It's an interesting analysis but it's missing carlin springs and I think it puts too much emphasis on an arbitrary breakpoint, title i status. Claremont is nearly title 1, Campbell is and so is Drew. So it's actually eliminating from the analysis two of the three most popular option schools for SA students. These schools are often preferable to parents in schools with farms rates at or above 70. There a huge difference between half of a school being disadvantaged and nearly all of it being so.

I'm unclear what your point is on the Claremont, Campbell and Drew - should transfers to those schools have been backed out of the analysis or not? Campbell and Drew were included in the transfer adjustment since they are Title I, Claremont was not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've established that a couple hundred non ed students transfer out, a somewhat smaller number, less than 200, transfer in. There are 1000 non ed students at Wakefield. That means something like 800 non ed kids are zoned for Wakefield and go there. We don't know their personal educational histories, so we can't for sure say where they were living or where they were going to school before this point, so on those narrow terms, no, I can't prove it. but it's reasonable to think that most non ed students at Wakefield went to Oakridge, Henry, and the option schools because non-ed students are a minority at most other SA neighborhood schools.

What's your response to the poster at 11:40?

It's an interesting analysis but it's missing carlin springs and I think it puts too much emphasis on an arbitrary breakpoint, title i status. Claremont is nearly title 1, Campbell is and so is Drew. So it's actually eliminating from the analysis two of the three most popular option schools for SA students. These schools are often preferable to parents in schools with farms rates at or above 70. There a huge difference between half of a school being disadvantaged and nearly all of it being so.

I'm unclear what your point is on the Claremont, Campbell and Drew - should transfers to those schools have been backed out of the analysis or not? Campbell and Drew were included in the transfer adjustment since they are Title I, Claremont was not.

My point is that transferring from one title 1 school to another is in fact a way of avoiding poverty, when the farms percentage is like 75% at Randolph and 50 percent at Drew.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've established that a couple hundred non ed students transfer out, a somewhat smaller number, less than 200, transfer in. There are 1000 non ed students at Wakefield. That means something like 800 non ed kids are zoned for Wakefield and go there. We don't know their personal educational histories, so we can't for sure say where they were living or where they were going to school before this point, so on those narrow terms, no, I can't prove it. but it's reasonable to think that most non ed students at Wakefield went to Oakridge, Henry, and the option schools because non-ed students are a minority at most other SA neighborhood schools.

What's your response to the poster at 11:40?

It's an interesting analysis but it's missing carlin springs and I think it puts too much emphasis on an arbitrary breakpoint, title i status. Claremont is nearly title 1, Campbell is and so is Drew. So it's actually eliminating from the analysis two of the three most popular option schools for SA students. These schools are often preferable to parents in schools with farms rates at or above 70. There a huge difference between half of a school being disadvantaged and nearly all of it being so.

I'm unclear what your point is on the Claremont, Campbell and Drew - should transfers to those schools have been backed out of the analysis or not? Campbell and Drew were included in the transfer adjustment since they are Title I, Claremont was not.

My point is that transferring from one title 1 school to another is in fact a way of avoiding poverty, when the farms percentage is like 75% at Randolph and 50 percent at Drew.

So what about 13:!5? Why should we believe you that all of those families come back to the neighborhood for high school instead of going to HB Woodlawn or IB at W-L? A lot of non-ED students transfer from Wakefield to both of those schools each year.

[Anonymous]

Anecdotally? It was pretty common to hear older neighbors in my sa neighbrohood specifically talk about avoiding the elementary school, but happily send their kids to Wakefield. Very common.

[Anonymous]

Families think that their kids should get a good foundation in elementary school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've established that a couple hundred non ed students transfer out, a somewhat smaller number, less than 200, transfer in. There are 1000 non ed students at Wakefield. That means something like 800 non ed kids are zoned for Wakefield and go there. We don't know their personal educational histories, so we can't for sure say where they were living or where they were going to school before this point, so on those narrow terms, no, I can't prove it. but it's reasonable to think that most non ed students at Wakefield went to Oakridge, Henry, and the option schools because non-ed students are a minority at most other SA neighborhood schools.

What's your response to the poster at 11:40?

It's an interesting analysis but it's missing carlin springs and I think it puts too much emphasis on an arbitrary breakpoint, title i status. Claremont is nearly title 1, Campbell is and so is Drew. So it's actually eliminating from the analysis two of the three most popular option schools for SA students. These schools are often preferable to parents in schools with farms rates at or above 70. There a huge difference between half of a school being disadvantaged and nearly all of it being so.

I'm unclear what your point is on the Claremont, Campbell and Drew - should transfers to those schools have been backed out of the analysis or not? Campbell and Drew were included in the transfer adjustment since they are Title I, Claremont was not.

My point is that transferring from one title 1 school to another is in fact a way of avoiding poverty, when the farms percentage is like 75% at Randolph and 50 percent at Drew.

So what about 13:!5? Why should we believe you that all of those families come back to the neighborhood for high school instead of going to HB Woodlawn or IB at W-L? A lot of non-ED students transfer from Wakefield to both of those schools each year.

Not PP, but HB draws primarily from Yorktown. There are 145 transfers to HB from the Wakefiled zone. I have no idea how many of those students attended an option program, but clearly it's not all of them. Anecdotally, there have been no (successful) applicants to HB from the option ES my kid attends the last 2 years (they announce where students are going the following year). I have no idea if any applied and were accepted, but none enrolled.

Also, I think there is a difference at the HS level for a lot of people, because the main subject areas/classes are based on academic performance levels. This doesn't happen at ES, so it's not a surprise to me that parents would be fine with a high poverty HS (50%) with a significant cohort of UMC kids where their kids have access to rigorous courses and a wide variety of extracurricular activities, but not okay with those same kids attending a high poverty ES (80%) where the remaining 20% of kids are not UMC, but those who are living just barely above the poverty line and there is no PTA or enrichment outside of school for non-disadvantaged kids. Different experiences all together. The option schools have significant numbers of very poor kids, but also significant numbers of rather well-off kids, more like Wakefield than not. All this to say, I do not believe there is evidence that most parents who prefer option ES programs do not consider Wakefiled a viable option for HS. But I'm sure that not all do. They are just as likely to move, though, as transfer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've established that a couple hundred non ed students transfer out, a somewhat smaller number, less than 200, transfer in. There are 1000 non ed students at Wakefield. That means something like 800 non ed kids are zoned for Wakefield and go there. We don't know their personal educational histories, so we can't for sure say where they were living or where they were going to school before this point, so on those narrow terms, no, I can't prove it. but it's reasonable to think that most non ed students at Wakefield went to Oakridge, Henry, and the option schools because non-ed students are a minority at most other SA neighborhood schools.

What's your response to the poster at 11:40?

It's an interesting analysis but it's missing carlin springs and I think it puts too much emphasis on an arbitrary breakpoint, title i status. Claremont is nearly title 1, Campbell is and so is Drew. So it's actually eliminating from the analysis two of the three most popular option schools for SA students. These schools are often preferable to parents in schools with farms rates at or above 70. There a huge difference between half of a school being disadvantaged and nearly all of it being so.

I'm unclear what your point is on the Claremont, Campbell and Drew - should transfers to those schools have been backed out of the analysis or not? Campbell and Drew were included in the transfer adjustment since they are Title I, Claremont was not.

My point is that transferring from one title 1 school to another is in fact a way of avoiding poverty, when the farms percentage is like 75% at Randolph and 50 percent at Drew.

So what about 13:!5? Why should we believe you that all of those families come back to the neighborhood for high school instead of going to HB Woodlawn or IB at W-L? A lot of non-ED students transfer from Wakefield to both of those schools each year.

You can believe what you want; I don't know who " we" is. It's a huge leap to imagine that every single SA kid who options out as an elementary student does it again and a middle schooler and a a high schooler. I, as a SA parent, am actually pretty okay with a 50% farms high school. You might not see a big diff between a 70% farms elementary and a 50% farms high school, and perhaps that's what's driving your skepticism. Fine. But success starts early and compounds. For an UMC student there is a vast difference between a 2nd grade class that gets nothing but SOL drill and kill lessons because virtually the entire class is on food stamps, and a high school class of near adults where only half are disadvantaged. It's about getting off on the right foot and if you can't see the difference between those things, well, there's no convincing you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Not PP, but HB draws primarily from Yorktown. There are 145 transfers to HB from the Wakefiled zone. I have no idea how many of those students attended an option program, but clearly it's not all of them. Anecdotally, there have been no (successful) applicants to HB from the option ES my kid attends the last 2 years (they announce where students are going the following year). I have no idea if any applied and were accepted, but none enrolled.

Also, I think there is a difference at the HS level for a lot of people, because the main subject areas/classes are based on academic performance levels. This doesn't happen at ES, so it's not a surprise to me that parents would be fine with a high poverty HS (50%) with a significant cohort of UMC kids where their kids have access to rigorous courses and a wide variety of extracurricular activities, but not okay with those same kids attending a high poverty ES (80%) where the remaining 20% of kids are not UMC, but those who are living just barely above the poverty line and there is no PTA or enrichment outside of school for non-disadvantaged kids. Different experiences all together. The option schools have significant numbers of very poor kids, but also significant numbers of rather well-off kids, more like Wakefield than not. All this to say, I do not believe there is evidence that most parents who prefer option ES programs do not consider Wakefiled a viable option for HS. But I'm sure that not all do. They are just as likely to move, though, as transfer.

Yorktown has the most transfers to HB but there not a huge gap between the schools -- 182 from Yorktown, 145 from Wakefield, the least from W-L 130.

More Wakefield kids transfer to W-L, but again there isn't a huge difference between Wakefield and Yorktown --246, 224.

I know a lot of UMC families in S. Arlington who seem quite happy with Wakefield.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Families think that their kids should get a good foundation in elementary school.

It is a critical time, so I tend to agree. Would choice/private till middle school. I think Wakefield is a fine high school.

[Anonymous]

HB does not draw primarily from Yorktown. Where do you see that data? HB slots are equally distributed by student population per attendance zone. If a kid does not attend, the spot is offered to the next kid in the attendance zone.
This may change slightly in the high school round of HB lottery because it may be double blind for a few spots.
If your child attends an option school, you compete for lottery spots with students in your neighborhood school attendance zone, not your option school group. For example there are 5 spots for discovery zone living students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:HB does not draw primarily from Yorktown. Where do you see that data? HB slots are equally distributed by student population per attendance zone. If a kid does not attend, the spot is offered to the next kid in the attendance zone.
This may change slightly in the high school round of HB lottery because it may be double blind for a few spots.
If your child attends an option school, you compete for lottery spots with students in your neighborhood school attendance zone, not your option school group. For example there are 5 spots for discovery zone living students.

That's not exactly how it works. The number of slots are based on home school sizes. Historically, the NA elementaries have been larger and therefore have had more slots. Also, there are more ES in NA than in SA, so more spaces for NA kids.