WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this AAP discussion is derailing the discussion on budget cuts. If you want to propose eliminating it, please focus the discussion on budget cuts due to it's expenses verses the outcome of AAP and GE students and not on whether you like it or not. Obviously it's extremely popular and many parents and students love it. My personal opinion is that unless class sizes decrease dramatically, there will be a lot of very unhappy parents in Fairfax if AAP goes away. No one is going to care if you go up to the school board and say "Get rid of AAP because it's divisive" They may try to restructure the program in the future, but it won't necessarily cost less unless you point out how to save money. So other items will still be cut.

Actually didn't they just pay for a study last year that concluded FCPS is using best practices for AAP education? Got an A+ grade as I recall.

Which is hilarious as the study was conducted by GMU (WISC tests, anyone?) at the request of FCPS. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-26/local/40202656_1_independent-study-gifted-program-school-system Several quotes in the article as to this study's lack of credibility. Show us a completely independent and unbiased study, complete with recommendations for improvement.

[Anonymous]

Yes, my article at Rochester SAGE is an op-ed, but the statement cited is supported by Susan Winebrenner's cluster grouping research which finds that removing the gifted students from a class allows the mid-high students to become more proficient and increase their academic self-esteem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ Center schools are typically the ones that did have the extra capacity.

Not mine. We are level 4 AAP center and bursting at the seams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my article at Rochester SAGE is an op-ed, but the statement cited is supported by Susan Winebrenner's cluster grouping research which finds that removing the gifted students from a class allows the mid-high students to become more proficient and increase their academic self-esteem.

Would you expect any difference in effect depending on whether gifted students are "pulled out" once a week, put in a separate class within the same school, or removed from the original school completely and placed in a dedicated center? Much of the issue in FCPS seems to be that general education (GE) kids see Advanced Academic Programs (AAP) kids in the same school and feel constantly that they -- the GE kids -- are "less than."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The CogAt/FxAT does not measure IQ; these are simply reasoning tests. http://www.riverpub.com/products/cogAt/support.html#4 So scoring high on them does not necessarily indicate a high IQ. Many GE kids are equally intelligent, but just missed the benchmark on those tests. This is why GE students, within center schools especially, feel the stark division of AAP/GE so acutely. It's obvious that most of their AAP counterparts are no "smarter" than they, and yet they (the AAP kids) are receiving special services. This is a program that needs to be cut or deeply overhauled.

If the kids just missed the benchmark, why would their parents not have parent referred?

Speaking as one of those parents, we didn't parent refer because we don't feel AAP is the end-all be-all. AAP is not that much more "advanced" than GE, and we didn't want to go through the whole referral process just so our child could have a meaningless label.

Are you at a center school or non-center school? Did your child take the whole AAP vs. GE thing in stride? I'm wondering if parent attitudes play a role (you didn't make a big deal of it so your child doesn't worry about it either) and if it is easier at a non-center school where the child has classmates who leave the school but doesn't see the AAP classes every day at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The CogAt/FxAT does not measure IQ; these are simply reasoning tests. http://www.riverpub.com/products/cogAt/support.html#4 So scoring high on them does not necessarily indicate a high IQ. Many GE kids are equally intelligent, but just missed the benchmark on those tests. This is why GE students, within center schools especially, feel the stark division of AAP/GE so acutely. It's obvious that most of their AAP counterparts are no "smarter" than they, and yet they (the AAP kids) are receiving special services. This is a program that needs to be cut or deeply overhauled.

If the kids just missed the benchmark, why would their parents not have parent referred?

Speaking as one of those parents, we didn't parent refer because we don't feel AAP is the end-all be-all. AAP is not that much more "advanced" than GE, and we didn't want to go through the whole referral process just so our child could have a meaningless label.

Are you at a center school or non-center school? Did your child take the whole AAP vs. GE thing in stride? I'm wondering if parent attitudes play a role (you didn't make a big deal of it so your child doesn't worry about it either) and if it is easier at a non-center school where the child has classmates who leave the school but doesn't see the AAP classes every day at school.

DC is a GE student at a center school. I'm not sure if the GE/AAP separation really costs more, absent the busing costs. FCPS does spend a decent amount of rescources on GBRS evaluations, putting AAP files together, reviewing files, handling appeals, and administering the NNAT and CogAT. They would save more resources if they'd just allow the teachers to do flexible grouping and team teach within grades. This is what they are doing now for science and social studies. The only separate classes are language arts and math, and they flex group these within AAP and GE already. Why the need to track the students and put all the resources to create the tracks? Seems like a waste.

The bigger problem is the division within the school and the effect tracking has on those in the GE group. DC has struggled with self esteem being in the GE class. DC didn't take it in stride and still comments on how DC thinks DC should be in AAP. We wish we were at a non center school and have considered moving. It would be easier for DC if the constant reminder of AAP wasn't on display daily.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The CogAt/FxAT does not measure IQ; these are simply reasoning tests. http://www.riverpub.com/products/cogAt/support.html#4 So scoring high on them does not necessarily indicate a high IQ. Many GE kids are equally intelligent, but just missed the benchmark on those tests. This is why GE students, within center schools especially, feel the stark division of AAP/GE so acutely. It's obvious that most of their AAP counterparts are no "smarter" than they, and yet they (the AAP kids) are receiving special services. This is a program that needs to be cut or deeply overhauled.

If the kids just missed the benchmark, why would their parents not have parent referred?

Speaking as one of those parents, we didn't parent refer because we don't feel AAP is the end-all be-all. AAP is not that much more "advanced" than GE, and we didn't want to go through the whole referral process just so our child could have a meaningless label.

Are you at a center school or non-center school? Did your child take the whole AAP vs. GE thing in stride? I'm wondering if parent attitudes play a role (you didn't make a big deal of it so your child doesn't worry about it either) and if it is easier at a non-center school where the child has classmates who leave the school but doesn't see the AAP classes every day at school.

DC is a GE student at a center school. I'm not sure if the GE/AAP separation really costs more, absent the busing costs. FCPS does spend a decent amount of rescources on GBRS evaluations, putting AAP files together, reviewing files, handling appeals, and administering the NNAT and CogAT. They would save more resources if they'd just allow the teachers to do flexible grouping and team teach within grades. This is what they are doing now for science and social studies. The only separate classes are language arts and math, and they flex group these within AAP and GE already. Why the need to track the students and put all the resources to create the tracks? Seems like a waste.

The bigger problem is the division within the school and the effect tracking has on those in the GE group. DC has struggled with self esteem being in the GE class. DC didn't take it in stride and still comments on how DC thinks DC should be in AAP. We wish we were at a non center school and have considered moving. It would be easier for DC if the constant reminder of AAP wasn't on display daily.

I am sorry! Is there anything that would be helpful for AAP parents or kids to do to make things easier for your DC?

I think that what you suggest about the flexible grouping and team teaching makes sense.

[Anonymous]

The thing is the schools without a lot of AAP students would suffer if AAP went away. Now those neighborhoods do better because by 3rd grade you can go to the center. No one wants to live in an area with only 4-5 AAP level kids and have them stay in the same school without any peers. It's a different story say at Great Falls Elementary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thing is the schools without a lot of AAP students would suffer if AAP went away. Now those neighborhoods do better because by 3rd grade you can go to the center. No one wants to live in an area with only 4-5 AAP level kids and have them stay in the same school without any peers. It's a different story say at Great Falls Elementary.

That is a good point. The situation where people seem to have the most objections is when the number of AAP classes exceeds the number of GE classes at a center, like 4 AAP classes and only 2 GE classes. Perhaps there would be a better balance if AAP never made up more than half of the students at a school for each grade. That would still allow level IV AAP students to have the larger peer group of a center but wouldn't overwhelm the center and make the GE students feel in the minority. Although an adult could rationalize that all those kids come from five different schools, a kid could wonder why so many were in AAP and not him or her.

So in effect the larger centers would be split into a greater number of smaller centers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this AAP discussion is derailing the discussion on budget cuts. If you want to propose eliminating it, please focus the discussion on budget cuts due to it's expenses verses the outcome of AAP and GE students and not on whether you like it or not. Obviously it's extremely popular and many parents and students love it. My personal opinion is that unless class sizes decrease dramatically, there will be a lot of very unhappy parents in Fairfax if AAP goes away. No one is going to care if you go up to the school board and say "Get rid of AAP because it's divisive" They may try to restructure the program in the future, but it won't necessarily cost less unless you point out how to save money. So other items will still be cut.

Actually didn't they just pay for a study last year that concluded FCPS is using best practices for AAP education? Got an A+ grade as I recall.

Which is hilarious as the study was conducted by GMU (WISC tests, anyone?) at the request of FCPS. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-26/local/40202656_1_independent-study-gifted-program-school-system Several quotes in the article as to this study's lack of credibility. Show us a completely independent and unbiased study, complete with recommendations for improvement.

us?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this AAP discussion is derailing the discussion on budget cuts. If you want to propose eliminating it, please focus the discussion on budget cuts due to it's expenses verses the outcome of AAP and GE students and not on whether you like it or not. Obviously it's extremely popular and many parents and students love it. My personal opinion is that unless class sizes decrease dramatically, there will be a lot of very unhappy parents in Fairfax if AAP goes away. No one is going to care if you go up to the school board and say "Get rid of AAP because it's divisive" They may try to restructure the program in the future, but it won't necessarily cost less unless you point out how to save money. So other items will still be cut.

Actually didn't they just pay for a study last year that concluded FCPS is using best practices for AAP education? Got an A+ grade as I recall.

Which is hilarious as the study was conducted by GMU (WISC tests, anyone?) at the request of FCPS. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-26/local/40202656_1_independent-study-gifted-program-school-system Several quotes in the article as to this study's lack of credibility. Show us a completely independent and unbiased study, complete with recommendations for improvement.

One quote. By Louise Epstein. Y-ou really have a hard on for the AAP program don't you? [defined in Urban dictionary as an out of proportion vindictiveness toward someone or something.].

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The CogAt/FxAT does not measure IQ; these are simply reasoning tests. http://www.riverpub.com/products/cogAt/support.html#4 So scoring high on them does not necessarily indicate a high IQ. Many GE kids are equally intelligent, but just missed the benchmark on those tests. This is why GE students, within center schools especially, feel the stark division of AAP/GE so acutely. It's obvious that most of their AAP counterparts are no "smarter" than they, and yet they (the AAP kids) are receiving special services. This is a program that needs to be cut or deeply overhauled.

If the kids just missed the benchmark, why would their parents not have parent referred?

Speaking as one of those parents, we didn't parent refer because we don't feel AAP is the end-all be-all. AAP is not that much more "advanced" than GE, and we didn't want to go through the whole referral process just so our child could have a meaningless label.

Are you at a center school or non-center school? Did your child take the whole AAP vs. GE thing in stride? I'm wondering if parent attitudes play a role (you didn't make a big deal of it so your child doesn't worry about it either) and if it is easier at a non-center school where the child has classmates who leave the school but doesn't see the AAP classes every day at school.

DC is a GE student at a center school. I'm not sure if the GE/AAP separation really costs more, absent the busing costs. FCPS does spend a decent amount of rescources on GBRS evaluations, putting AAP files together, reviewing files, handling appeals, and administering the NNAT and CogAT. They would save more resources if they'd just allow the teachers to do flexible grouping and team teach within grades. This is what they are doing now for science and social studies. The only separate classes are language arts and math, and they flex group these within AAP and GE already. Why the need to track the students and put all the resources to create the tracks? Seems like a waste.

The bigger problem is the division within the school and the effect tracking has on those in the GE group. DC has struggled with self esteem being in the GE class. DC didn't take it in stride and still comments on how DC thinks DC should be in AAP. We wish we were at a non center school and have considered moving. It would be easier for DC if the constant reminder of AAP wasn't on display daily.

I could have written the above, word for word. Our DC is in the same situation and the other parents in DC's class have said this exact thing before as well. At our center, the biggest issue is having more AAP classes than GE, so the GE kids have a very definite visual, each day, of how few GE kids there are compared to AAP. We are also seriously considering moving so that DC can go to a non-center school. If centers are going to exist, there needs to be another option for GE kids who happen to live within center boundaries. In fact, if AAP kids can be bussed to centers, GE kids should be allowed to be bussed to non-centers, if they choose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this AAP discussion is derailing the discussion on budget cuts. If you want to propose eliminating it, please focus the discussion on budget cuts due to it's expenses verses the outcome of AAP and GE students and not on whether you like it or not. Obviously it's extremely popular and many parents and students love it. My personal opinion is that unless class sizes decrease dramatically, there will be a lot of very unhappy parents in Fairfax if AAP goes away. No one is going to care if you go up to the school board and say "Get rid of AAP because it's divisive" They may try to restructure the program in the future, but it won't necessarily cost less unless you point out how to save money. So other items will still be cut.

Actually didn't they just pay for a study last year that concluded FCPS is using best practices for AAP education? Got an A+ grade as I recall.

Which is hilarious as the study was conducted by GMU (WISC tests, anyone?) at the request of FCPS. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-26/local/40202656_1_independent-study-gifted-program-school-system Several quotes in the article as to this study's lack of credibility. Show us a completely independent and unbiased study, complete with recommendations for improvement.

us?

"Us" meaning the audience of DCUM's here who don't believe for one minute that this study was unbiased. Show "us" a real evaluation of FCPS AAP that isn't conducted by an institution (GMU) that benefits hugely from parents trying to get their kids into AAP. Naturally, they are going to say the program is tops if parents continue to come to them for WISC tests in order to get into said program. And naturally, FCPS would ask GMU to conduct this "study," so as to reinforce their image as a "world-class school system". It's a symbiotic relationship. An impartial study is what's called for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this AAP discussion is derailing the discussion on budget cuts. If you want to propose eliminating it, please focus the discussion on budget cuts due to it's expenses verses the outcome of AAP and GE students and not on whether you like it or not. Obviously it's extremely popular and many parents and students love it. My personal opinion is that unless class sizes decrease dramatically, there will be a lot of very unhappy parents in Fairfax if AAP goes away. No one is going to care if you go up to the school board and say "Get rid of AAP because it's divisive" They may try to restructure the program in the future, but it won't necessarily cost less unless you point out how to save money. So other items will still be cut.

Actually didn't they just pay for a study last year that concluded FCPS is using best practices for AAP education? Got an A+ grade as I recall.

Which is hilarious as the study was conducted by GMU (WISC tests, anyone?) at the request of FCPS. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-26/local/40202656_1_independent-study-gifted-program-school-system Several quotes in the article as to this study's lack of credibility. Show us a completely independent and unbiased study, complete with recommendations for improvement.

One quote. By Louise Epstein. Y-ou really have a hard on for the AAP program don't you? [defined in Urban dictionary as an out of proportion vindictiveness toward someone or something.].

Nice! Great rebuttal. And classy, too.

[Anonymous]

I think I'm moving over to the new thread created on budget cuts that actually talks about cuts and changes to help savings.